Scientology denied in Laura DeCrescenzo’s law suit

Gib

Crusader
Thanks, Gib!

Would you care to review your PC folder(s) now, if given the opportunity?

JB.

sure. I'd laugh at whatever was written down. I know me better than than the C/S, that's for sure.

Pretended knowledge and made up knowledge of a person of which is all BS.

Or, I don't need some stink'in badges. Or status. :laugh:
 

Mojo

Silver Meritorious Patron
Re: Justice Kennedy DENIES Scientology's motion for stay in forced abortion case!

Who wants to bet the confessional files turned over to her will be incomplete & had been tampered with before release? The cult is not going to allow some wog court, irregardless it being the US Supreme Court, tell it what to do.

That's the proverbial rub. The natural question being, how to deal with 'that'? In terms of education of the courts and their agents (i.e. jurists and otherwise practitioners of law)? I have never been personally responsible for pc folders so I cannot speak to that specific issue with any factual authority or personal confidence. Though I am sure many here have, and can.

I suppose it renders this issue as being a mere exercise in philosophy, for me. And if so, so be it (long live the ESMB). Here is my take;

#1. Fact; Scientology as a corporate (and legal) force in the world has won numerous court-room battles in various court-room buildings across the United States of America, over the course of not just a few number of years. And so be it. They have not yet won the war. Nor will they.

#2. While the ability to play the United States legal system 'against itself' is a game generally played (and won) by the corporate authors of it (and their intellectual offspring) when played by an outside force, such as scientology, 'the religion', eventually a pair of deuce's will no longer beat a full house. Factually speaking. lol.

#3. Need I remind anyone here of this most honest and eloquent statement about the so-called 'church of scientology' spoken & penned by The Honorable Judge Breckenridge, not so many years ago?....

"The court record is replete with evidence that Scientology is nothing in reality but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum amount of money from its adepts by pseudo scientific theories... and to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to continue with their sect.... The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, L.Ron Hubbard."

....no I do not. But such a communication, recorded in history by a Judge in the United States of America addressing the insanity of scientology itself, leads up to my next (#4) point. lol. (by the way, if you've never played the 'scientology-game' called: what judges said what? about scientology?????? you can find some helpful hints on how to win, with facts, here: http://www.xenu.net/archive/judge_quotes.html

#4. Being an authentic corporate legal force in the United States of America requires, in the long run, more than mere verbal gymnastics to sustain. For the simple reason, eventually, all chickens come home to roost. Meaning, as L. Ron Hubbard would say, David Miscaviage wants to get f**ked. Legally, if not otherwise.

And he will. Just as his mentor was, and did.

mojo
 

JBWriter

Happy Sapien
If the church were ethical, I'd hope to back them up on the privilege thing. But they are sooooooooooo far from ethical on this issue, they don't deserve a ruling in their favor over these folders.

Anyone who needs the PC folders can get at them, and that certainly includes OSA for dirty tactics.

They can't have it both ways.

Plus, the woman is demanding her own folders! It's not like it's a prosecutor demanding the folders to use as evidence against a defendant. No question this church should have to produce them.

But that's all theoretical. Back to reality:

If the church loses the appeal, they will cull the folders. I'd bet my life on it. I've seen this being done for far less compelling reasons.

There remains a very slim chance that petitions submitted by Co$ attorneys will be accepted by a 2nd US Justice or the US Supreme Court as a whole. I think both petitions will fail without comment.

In this case, at this time, given Justice Kennedy's denial, it appears that Co$ will likely have to produce Ms. DeCrescenzo's entire PC file. Should they provide her attorneys with incomplete/redacted records, they will face sanctions by the Court. That's a 'legal reality' - and it may well be an imperfect system to discourage bad acts given the 'practical reality' of Co$ policies of obstruction/destruction of materials in their possession. Too many accounts of shredding parties and such are shared in narrative form on the internet to believe no such management policies exist -- they do.

Within the legal arena, however, what will courts do when other former members of Co$ demand copies of their PC files? IMO, the Courts will look to the opinions generated in this lawsuit and proceed accordingly. So far, in this lawsuit, every judge has stated that if the 'penitent' waives the privilege, the PC file must be provided.

If Ms. DeCrescenzo settles with Co$ tomorrow, for example, that settlement does not change what the courts have already ruled -- PC files are NOT privileged material to one who requests a copy, so....other former and current members of Co$ may request their PC file be provided. Imagine that -- the Co$ inundated with requests from all over the world to produce full copies of PC files. That'd keep 'em busy, eh?

JB.
 

JBWriter

Happy Sapien
sure. I'd laugh at whatever was written down. I know me better than than the C/S, that's for sure.

Pretended knowledge and made up knowledge of a person of which is all BS.

Or, I don't need some stink'in badges. Or status. :laugh:

Great answers! :happydance::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::happydance:

Your current status - autonomous - trumps ALL, right?

JB
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Re: Justice Kennedy DENIES Scientology's motion for stay in forced abortion case!

The other day at the Underground Bunker I suggested that someone should write a parody of The Raven that replaces "Nevermore" with "Cert Denied."

A poster by the name of Espiando started with this brilliant parody, but didn't finish it.

Once upon a Monday dreary, as I pondered weak and weary
Over many an obscure text of legal lore
While I nodded, uncomprehending, over the issues that were pending
Suddenly the gavel rapping, woke me from my wakeful napping
"Tis some decision," I muttered, "just like the ones before
Only this, and nothing more."

Ah, distinctly I belie, that it was in hot July
And each separate settlement wrought its ghost upon the books
Eagerly I wished the morrow had no settlement to follow
For the books declared the endings of the PIs and the Cooks
For the rare and radiant case that would shout to DM, "In your face!"
Nonexistent here, but soon to get their looks.
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Re: Justice Kennedy DENIES Scientology's motion for stay in forced abortion case!

Who wants to bet the confessional files turned over to her will be incomplete & had been tampered with before release? The cult is not going to allow some wog court, irregardless it being the US Supreme Court, tell it what to do.

It's really the ultimate loose-loose proposition for the cult. Make no mistake, there will be a footbullet. Right now we should be discussing what the caliber of this footbullet will be.
 
Re: Justice Kennedy DENIES Scientology's motion for stay in forced abortion case!

Yesterday the Cali Supreme Court denied Scientology's refusal to turn over her folders. Lets assume the US Supreme court does the same. I can see several courses of action the church may take:

A) they turn over the folders
B) they redact portions of them
C) they shred them
D) they claim they lost them
E) they turn over portions that are non-incriminating. Withhold all the rest.

What happens if they do any of the above other than A)? They would be in contempt of court, that is obvious. What kind of fines would that result in? Or jail time? I presume that if anything other than A) would be the work of an "arms length" over zealous employee that would take the fall.

Then again, they might think it is easier to cut a check and make it all go away.

Thoughts?

Mimsey
I am reposting it and am taking bets - that they do not do A). It will be one of B)-E) or a big fat check. And for bonus points - the red will happen.

Mimsey
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Re: Justice Kennedy DENIES Scientology's motion for stay in forced abortion case!

I am reposting it and am taking bets - that they do not do A). It will be one of B)-E) or a big fat check. And for bonus points - the red will happen.

Mimsey

Too bad Shelly isn't around. Otherwise Davey would be driving her to Leavenworth before retiring to his Bluebird. I wonder of Laurisse Schtuppindwarf is up to the task?
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Justice Kennedy DENIES Scientology's motion for stay in forced abortion case!

I am reposting it and am taking bets - that they do not do A). It will be one of B)-E) or a big fat check. And for bonus points - the red will happen.

Mimsey

I do believe negotiations of the "dollar" amount given to Laura are underway....They are going to gag her if I had to bet on it. One of these days a big thetan will not be gagged and will take it all the way!!

Phase I - wear them out with lengthy and expensive spinning in the courts. DONE (since 2009)
Phase II - appeal, appeal, appeal, appeal - go to the Supreme Court and appeal to God if need be DONE
Phase III - if it looks bleak that Scientology will win - start throwing money at the problem...everyone has a price.

Scientology would rather give Laura $10 billion dollars than allow the courts her PC folders. The problem is - a precedent has been set now - and the Cult will never be able to claim that ecclesiastical bullshit!

THIS IS SANITY:

This is the most honest and eloquent statement about the so-called 'church of scientology' spoken & penned by The Honorable Judge Breckenridge, not so many years ago?....

"The court record is replete with evidence that Scientology is nothing in reality but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum amount of money from its adepts by pseudo scientific theories... and to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to continue with their sect.... The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, L.Ron Hubbard."

That sums it up in a nutshell. Ron the Nut!
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I'm still not clear, however, on which job titles/positions within Co$ are considered "ordained" and which are not.

Unless they changed it, a person becomes ordained, not the post. I was ordained as a minister around 1980. To achieve that I did the Minister's Course (roughly 15 hours study), then was ordained as a separate action in the Saint Hill Chapel afterwards. The ordination is independent of post - at the time I was on a finance post.

The pre-requisites to the course are, from memory, something like of good moral character (no comment), Student Hat, trained auditor of some minimum standard.

Paul
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Unless they changed it, a person becomes ordained, not the post. I was ordained as a minister around 1980. To achieve that I did the Minister's Course (roughly 15 hours study), then was ordained as a separate action in the Saint Hill Chapel afterwards. The ordination is independent of post - at the time I was on a finance post.

The pre-requisites to the course are, from memory, something like of good moral character (no comment), Student Hat, trained auditor of some minimum standard.

Paul


Yep. I was ordained in the early '70's and it was the same protocol then. I was LRH Pers Staff on the Apollo at the time and needed to be a Minister and wear the garb for my "Shore Story" and "Identity" as part of an El Ron "PR Caper" Hisself selected me to do. Whadda a sham of a "Religion". The Clerical Collars are just another facet of Hisself's Costume Drama life we all got caught up in and bought into. :angry:


Face:)
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
There were hardly any ordained ministers I knew of when I was on staff. Nobody really bothered much. That's another reason it's such a joke that they pretend the Sea Org is some kind of "ecclesiastical order" when really it's just organised indentured servitude for life.
 

Gib

Crusader
Yep. I was ordained in the early '70's and it was the same protocol then. I was LRH Pers Staff on the Apollo at the time and needed to be a Minister and wear the garb for my "Shore Story" and "Identity" as part of an El Ron "PR Caper" Hisself selected me to do. Whadda a sham of a "Religion". The Clerical Collars are just another facet of Hisself's Costume Drama life we all got caught up in and bought into. :angry:


Face:)

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3xhC1a8qrJ5uK5Dc7mizmWtNYaTvjN5ob0W5r5S4TDdWPLK4m
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
There were hardly any ordained ministers I knew of when I was on staff. Nobody really bothered much. That's another reason it's such a joke that they pretend the Sea Org is some kind of "ecclesiastical order" when really it's just organised indentured servitude for life.

:thumbsup:

During my tenure in the SO, the only time I saw a "push" for turning out "Ministers" was just before and just after we moved into Clear Water. Our "Shore Story" was that we were non-denominational "United Churches of Florida" and one of the Top Priority PR Programs was to have all Ordained Ministers wearing clerical collars at all times and to ordain as many crew as possible as fast as possible so that we "looked the part" to the "local yokels". Within a month or so there were hundreds of SO running around downtown CW in clerical collars. What was goofy was that many also wore scruffy, wrinkled shirts, jeans, tennis shoes, etc, and facial hair, top knots, grooming, complexions, language and manners like a bunch of pirates that had been out at Sea for years on a rust bucket. :hysterical:

Face:)
 
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:thumbsup:

During my tenure in the SO, the only time I saw a "push" for turning out "Ministers" was just before and just after we moved into Clear Water. Our "Shore Story" was that we were non-denominational "United Churches of Florida" and one of the Top Priority PR Programs was to have all Ordained Ministers wearing clerical collars at all times and to ordain as many crew as possible as fast as possible so that we "looked the part" to the "local yokels". Within a month or so there were hundreds of SO running around downtown CW in clerical collars. What was goofy was that many also wore scruffy, wrinkled shirts, jeans, tennis shoes, etc, and facial hair, top knots, grooming, complexions, language and manners like a bunch of pirates that had been out to Sea for years on a rust bucket. :hysterical:

Face:)

hey face!

half of the best ordained clergy i've known in my life were scruffy and wore blue jeans
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
hey face!

half of the best ordained clergy i've known in my life were scruffy and wore blue jeans

Roger that. :yes: However, there is a HUGE difference between someone that spends years and years pursing a calling and course of study to someone that was ordered to do a 10-15 hour Scn checksheet. :coolwink:

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Roger that. :yes: However, there is a HUGE difference between someone that spends years and years pursing a calling and course of study to someone that was ordered to do a 10-15 hour Scn checksheet. :coolwink:

Face:)

I also found it most embarrassing that El Ron and the Flag GO could not seem to grasp the fact that these "Clergy" were completely "out PR" in appearance and demeanor for a small city in the US Deep South in the Mid '70's. :confused2::melodramatic:

Face:)
 

sallydannce

Gold Meritorious Patron
Originally Posted by Free to shine
To me this is HUGE. It brings into question the whole of the confidentiality abuses. Go Laura!!

i dunno about huge but it looks pretty big

nice OP FTS

It is a pivotal issue (huge, big, massive, etc) because the cult fiercely protects any information which helps protect the internal workings of the group.

A couple of years ago a young man suicided in Brisbane, Australia. (I apologise for not remembering his name and don't have time to look the case up).

The coroner and the police wanted the man's folders because he had suicided when actively under-taking services at the Brisbane org. If I recall correctly here, the authorities legally subpoenaed the info. The cult moved the folders out of two legal jurisdictions (Queensland to NSW, then Australia to USA) claiming they owned the private information. The cult stone-walled Australian authorities who were investigating a death.

While the above "small" matter may not seem like much, it is a huge "fuck you" to due legal process from the cult. It is ALL about protecting the cult and not allowing due process. That is a serious issue any way you look at it. A man dies, the authorities try to gather information to ascertain why and the cult says "fuck you!" Not healthy.

For authorities to "crack open" access to "private information" (i.e. PC folders) is pivotal to finding out what really goes on behind closed doors and is something the cult has venomously protected over the decades. It is one of the corner-stones of the whole "religious cloaking" set up. Laura's case is pivotal.

Go Laura (and her legal team)!
 

jojo

Patron
The Church is a liar, first of all, PC folders are handled by Folder Admins who have unrestricted control over a PC's folders to and from PC Archives. Pesonnel in Pc archives has unsupervised access to all PC folders.

Student auditors, who are not yet full fledged and ordained auditors have access to PC folders.

The D of T has access to PC folders to find PC's for his students. I often saw the Dof T rummage through the folder closets in search of PC's for his students.

Ethics Officers, and not all are ministers, have access to PC folders.

Students on courses doing why findings, who are not on an auditor course, have access to PC folders.

Registrars have access to PC folders on occasion.

PC folders travel through the mail, Fed Ex, UPS and others and the potential to land in untrained hands is possible if not probable. The point being here that control to keep it out of the hands of untrained personnel is lax.

PC folders are often lost by being shuttled about where they could be accessible to anyone in an org.

A Purif I/C has access to PC folders and they are not auditors, C/S's or Dof P's.

I have seen PC folder closets left wide open in the HGC, with the HGC door open and no one in the HGC to stop anyone from accessing the folders.

That the above named non-ordained have access to PC folders is in POLICY.


Basically PC folders are up for grabs by just about anyone who is either a staff, student or fsm. The folders travel freely from one org to another. My experience with PC folders was as a student on more than one course. I was taught to FES pc folders and as part of my auditor training had on more than one occasion read through pc folders and contributed to them during the sessions I gave as a student auditor. I was not a minister at the time and I am not one now.

I was very uncomfortable with how freely pc folders were passed around to just about anybody. I always wondered how that was compliant with confidentiality laws as I was quite aware of how high the turnover was scientologists.
 
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