Scientology explained

[Leland]

Title: Profiteroles in an oven.
Subtitled: Profiteroles explained

Self-imposed banishment re-commencing now...

[Deep down, Sally really wanted to post the full "profiterole photo series", pics of the profiteroles once they were iced, filled, and ready to go. She stayed strong, and refrained from such meaningless, spiritually deficient frivolity. And instead turned up the volume on Buddy Guy.]

What's the filling going to be?

 

[Balthasar]

Probably the most idiotic post I have ever seen on ESMB. Your heart might be in the right place Balthasar, and you might have the best of intentions towards your fellow-man, but you're talking bollocks! What you are describing isn't 'new age therapy', it's just simplistic drivel. Get a fucking grip man.

Ok strativarious, I take that slap in the face I may be doing simplicist stuff. But now it's your turn to come up with something better. What's your tech against depression Stratie ?

 

[George Layton]

The parts in red are wrong. It is not an enforcing of my will on the preclear nor is Tone 40 in any way an enforcing of one's will on the other. Big misconception on your part of a very subtle but real difference.

Tone 40 is giving the command with the absolute certainty that the process will work and will produce the desired results.

But note - and LRH emphasizes this in early lectures - it is not some magical thing whereby the preclear changes and has wins because of the auditor's will. It is purely that where an auditor lacks that certainty then that very uncertainty of his will be evident in the tone of his voice and will communicate to the preclear, thereby wrecking the session. This is why it is of fundamental importance that the auditor does have complete confidence in the process.

As an example I can share: There is a process in Scientology - well more than one really, but I give this one as an example - which makes no sense to me at all. I have never understood it or how it works or anything about it, and I have never been able to get a preclear to get gains on it when run on him or her. The process is "From where could you communicate to a victim?' It makes no sense. And yet I have known other auditors who say it is a great process and get wonderful gains on it with their preclears. I have had them explain it to me but I have never grasped it.

That certainty that the process will work is the key, and it can't be bullshitted.

Would you consider that there may be another layer in the processes hidden beneath the intention put into your command that acts as an exertion of your will on the preclear. ( it is not some magical thing whereby the preclear changes and has wins because of the auditor's will.) Why did hubbard point this out? Have you noticed, that in some instance's, in hubbard's other work's where he has emphasized something when really the opposite was true? Being mindfully focused upon the intention of your command, could you be exerting your will on the preclear unbeknownst to yourself?

 

[strativarius]

Ok strativarious, I take that slap in the face I may be doing simplicist stuff. But now it's your turn to come up with something better. What's your tech against depression Stratie ?

I think you may have missed the second part of my post B. What you offer is TLC (and there are a lot worse things around, like ECT, which I personally abhor). If it worked there would no depressed people in the world because TLC comes naturally to empathetic humans and they have been using it for thousands of years. Unfortunately, it isn't enough. I don't know what would cure depression, but I do know what doesn't.

Edit: My grandmother was given ECT in the 50's, and by the time the doctors had finished with her she was practically a vegetable. My brother suffered from chronic depression.

 

[Anonycat]

Oops, double posted.

 

[Anonycat]

What's the filling going to be?

The classic serving is pastry cream filled, with a drizzle of freshly made chocolate syrup on top.

 

[George Layton]

The classic serving is pastry cream filled, with a drizzle of freshly made chocolate syrup on top.

So good you'll want to eat it TWICE!

 

[strativarius]

^^^^ Or post it twice!

 

[sallydannce]

What's the filling going to be?

This:

(before you are some age-old secrets. I cannot reveal what the ingredients are without dragging out some shoddy confidentiality contracts, and stuff like that. )

 

[eldritch cuckoo]

Re: ignore tech explained

That's from people who have been subjected to electroshock treatment. Eldritch Cuckoo please watch it !

[manual ignore assist]

Hey, dude. It's not that simple. Scientology has "disconnection", I have my ignore list. Now that's how La Dritch[SUP]TM Mystic[/SUP] ignore tech[SUP]TM[/SUP] works: you're on my ignore list - ever since I announced it, looongcat before CBS accompanied you there, and with well-mannered, satisfactorily intelligent, and satisfactorily mind-fucked Leon ("1984" villain, anyone?) not accompanying you at all and not for the foreseeable future. So I couldn't see your recommendation, and only saw it because Helena has quoted it. Helena, btw., was in the VIP club as well, but I often opened her posts, so here. Now I've taken her off that anyhow short list for good, so that she can't make fun of me [strike]behind my back[/strike] in front of my screen. Go figure. :wink2: My ignore tech is as advanced as Lone Star's sockpuppet tech[SUP]TM[/SUP] and Virginia's typing tech[SUP]TM[/SUP]! You might even call it a firewall! (Says the person who found a keylogger once. Not on this 'puter, 'k?)

No, seriously: a page-long reply has recently been nuked by an OT psych attack or, as I perceived it superficially, some freezing/closing/reopening browser windows. I have already re-written it in demonic length. It contains a fair thrashing of Claire (just the usual stuff, nothing to worry), and the answers about life, the universe and the rest, and especially how that feels when you touch the wrong "high volt / high ampere" wires (here we have 220 V, ... what's it at your place? half, by chance?), or get acquainted with advanced "very high volt / low ampere" torture tech[SUP]TM WWI[/SUP]. So don't tell me anything about some dudes getting some mini shocks under anesthesia, that's no surprises for me. (Yes, watched. Yawn.) Now, meanwhile I need some sleep. Tomorrow, just before I'll check my reply for grammar and Ohm's law and send it, I'll see Udarnik and/or Student of Trinity and/or Arnie will have addressed all matters around the electric [STRIKE]universe[/STRIKE] cheesecake[SUP]TM Anonycat[/SUP] much more concise and less "verbose" and with a generally higher level of knowingnessness, if but not necessarily, and much to my pleasure, less "judgmental". Whatevs.

​

Meanwhile, enjoy (again):

[video=youtube;berzo1ocFkQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=berzo1ocFkQ[/video]
(Rammstein - "Ich Tu Dir Weh" ("I hurt you"))​

 

[sallydannce]

I think the best way to address depression is getting the person to talk about his feelings. Then taking walks in the nature and stay with him until she/he is getting better. You have got to catch the feelings which depress and then let the person immerse in it. That's new age tech, not Scientology. I am sure I could manage somehow.

I am the voice of "been there, lived through it".

No, human kindness (though vital) does not lift the darkness. Walking, though important, does little to nothing to penetrate through the fog. Catching the feelings which depress is impossible, letting the person immerse in them can lead to suicide (let us not be all sweet and polite about things, let us use real world words/terms).

You would not keep someone alive, with severe depression, with your ideas above. I do not mean what I am about to say unkindly but it has to be said "please don't even think you could deal with someone with severe depression". Please leave it to those that are trained and know what the hell they are doing.

So how do you sort out a severe depression? There is no quick one-shot "fix". Many (not all) deep depressions are hinged on deep anger, unexpressed. Various other factors come into the mix. I can only describe my own and would never ever think I could "help" someone else who was deep in despair.

How did I get through life-challenging depression (and anxiety)? With very good support from experts who were trained and experienced in such things. I used therapeutic journaling a lot. Excellent nutritional support (tough work when you have zero appetite or inclination to eat). Tonnes of rest. Mindfulness techniques. Cognitive behaviour therapy and other therapies from people who had attended universities and worked in hospitals. Reading/viewing new information to help understand things I knew nothing about (yeah, psych stuff plus loads of other stuff as I worked my way back into the light of day).

Did I use drugs? No, but this was only after some very serious discussions with doctors. The reasons I did not use drugs has nothing to do with my past (as a scientologist) but was a calculated assessment done between myself and doctors. I committed myself to finding my own way out of the deep dark fog, with good support from people who had a clue.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Probably the most idiotic post I have ever seen on ESMB. Your heart might be in the right place Balthasar, and you might have the best of intentions towards your fellow-man, but you're talking bollocks! What you are describing isn't 'new age therapy', it's just simplistic drivel. Get a fucking grip man.

We have all done what you recommend. We've been there for a friend and given them a shoulder to cry on so to speak, put a reassuring arm around their shoulders and gone for a quiet walk with them. It's the least one could do. And the next day their problem is still around. Then what?

I actually agree with B--to a point. I think that it is often the best course of action and I've had people tell me that their doctors said things along those lines.

But I also think that there are many people who really need medications to cope and to manage their illnesses and disorders. Not all of them, but quite a few. I don't think this is without peril given serious side effects, but I think it's far riskier to refrain from taking such meds when surely needed. Jeremy Perkins would be a good example of someone who should not have done without psychiatric medications.

So, no, I don't think there was anything wrong with Balthasar's post. I just think that there isn't one answer of one course of action.

Been slammed in the past for saying this sort of six of one/half dozen of the other thing, but like it or not, that's how life is.

 

[Claire Swazey]

Ok strativarious, I take that slap in the face I may be doing simplicist stuff. But now it's your turn to come up with something better. What's your tech against depression Stratie ?

You're wise to, though. When one gets too in depth and detailed, then some sagacious soul (!) comes along and goes blah blah circular, blah blah.

And god help ya if your explanations include any Scn jargon even if your discussing a specific procedure with people who are very familiar with it and who asked for those details...

Just sayin'.

 

[Leon-2]

Would you consider that there may be another layer in the processes hidden beneath the intention put into your command that acts as an exertion of your will on the preclear. ( it is not some magical thing whereby the preclear changes and has wins because of the auditor's will.) Why did hubbard point this out? Have you noticed, that in some instance's, in hubbard's other work's where he has emphasized something when really the opposite was true? Being mindfully focused upon the intention of your command, could you be exerting your will on the preclear unbeknownst to yourself?

George, you are getting very tedious. Every time I answer a question for you you analyse it and try to create some imagined wriggle-room for it to be twisted about, So that's it.

My answer to the above question you pose, and it is the last one I'm going to give you, is No.

 

[strativarius]

I actually agree with B--to a point. I think that it is often the best course of action and I've had people tell me that their doctors said things along those lines.

But I also think that there are many people who really need medications to cope and to manage their illnesses and disorders. Not all of them, but quite a few. I don't think this is without peril given serious side effects, but I think it's far riskier to refrain from taking such meds when surely needed. Jeremy Perkins would be s good example of someone who should not have done without psychiatric medications.

So, no, I don't think there was anything wrong with Balthasar's post. I just think that there isn't one answer of one course of action.

Been slammed in the past for saying this sort of six of one/half dozen of the other thing, but like it or not, that's how life is.

I have absolutely no background in dealing with the psychological issues of humans except when, as a scientologist, I had the sheer effrontery to believe that I had the tools to enhance the well-being of others. Turns out I was misled and was actually being used as a tool to enhance the well-being of a certain L. Ron Hubbard and him alone.

What Balthasar recommends surely can't do much harm, but as sallydannce's post details, it takes more than a chat and a walk in the park to alleviate serious depression.

 

[Moderator 3]

To Whom It May Concern,
Please tone down the personal insults. Or, better yet, knock it off completely.
Labeling others is so 2014 but if you honestly think someone is trolling here, the "standard i-tech" is to stop engaging that person.

 

[The_Fixer]

A family member received several courses of ECT, varying intensities, first on an outpatient basis, later an inpatient.

There not only are memories she permanently lost, but her ability to remember seems to have been somewhat impaired. Some stuff that happened long after ECT treatments also was lost to her. It also did not modify her illness in any way.

Even when I was an Indie, I was not and still am not against psychology and psychiatry. I personally would never ever take a prescription for SSRIs and the like, but I have zero problem with others opting to do so. I never, for example, gave my mom any flak about the meds she took, even when I was on staff.

But I see nothing worthwhile re ECT and am far less forgiving on that score. What I saw was rather dreadful though I've not provided many details here.

Remember Claire that these days ECT is only recommended as a last ditch effort and with the patient's consent (at least it is in Oz), when all else has failed to produce a result. It does and has helped many and did nothing for others.

I guess we just can't leave people to sit and rot. I would also venture to guess that if a better treatment came up, psychiatrists would grab it with both hands, but as yet, there isn't. Scientology would never improve, because they are not looking to improve it. That sort of thing is prohibited.

This was not so in the past. My first wife was shocked at 13 years old at the behest of her parents (would have been early to mid 60s, still in the horror days of psychiatry). I think it was over her throwing a knife at her brother, but I don't really remember what she said and I'm not bothered with asking her again. She has some mental blocks and problems, but I think she always has had them and the shock treatment was done because of them, not a result of it.

In her case I think it was done as a method of getting control of her by her parents and the general attitude back then of how people should behave and children having a certain place. Especially for women and girls.

 

[Gib]

I don't know what is the mechanism behind the process which is supposed to cause exteriorization. I know it is supposed to and can exteriorisize the PC but is only occasionally the case. Ever letting the PC know about inhibits him actually to exteriorize.

I was more interested why the process would exteriorize where others would not. Also who came up with it?

I'll let Vinaire explain it, since he recognizes the BS of exteriorisized, and I happen to agree with him on this point:

https://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2015/01/02/truth/#comments

"vinaire | January 10, 2015 at 9:23 am | Reply

In Scientology, INTERIORIZATION refers to a condition that has to do with “going into and becoming part of the body too fixedly.” EXTERIORIZATION is defined as a state where the individual experiences being outside his body.

The above definition assumes that individual and the body can be separated “physically” from each other. But the awareness of individuality is not something physical that can be pulled out of the body.

The truth is that a person, whose attention is fixed on the body, and who has been operating as a body all his life, feels very liberated when that attention suddenly becomes unstuck. This comes to him as a big surprise. He literally feels being outside the body. He thinks that something very special has happened. He feels a deep “spiritual awakening,”

INTERIORIZATION is the condition of attention being too fixed on the body with the person unaware of it. When that attention is freed up the person feels very liberated.

But the experience of being outside the body is just a feeling. The person does not know that he has been operating as a body all this time. The experience goes away just as suddenly as it had come because he does not have awareness of what really happened. But he remembers the brief experience and longs for it.
Such “out-of-body” experiences are actually quite common, but they are random and uncontrolled. But after such experience the person’s attention may get fixed on getting exterior to the body.

When a person’s attention is too fixed on separating “self” from the body, then it is just another form of INTERIORIZATION.

Scientology convinces a person that he is basically an immortal “thetan” (self), that can operate exterior to the body naturally. The person is then offered expensive Scientology processing to attain the state of “operating thetan.” He is put on a long “bridge” that he must cross to achieve the goal of “operating thetan.”

This may sound crazy. But a person, who already believes that there is a God who exists outside the universe, can easily be convinced to believe in a thetan that can exist outside the body.

In truth, “self” is not something physical that can be separated from the body. What needs to be freed is the attention fixed on the body, which the person is not aware of,

But Scientology directs the person toward the goal of “operating thetan,” and makes loads of money of him. The person ends up either hypnotized or feeling betrayed. No operating thetan has actually been observed throughout the existence of Scientology.

The simple truth lies in freeing the attention that is fixed on the body unbeknownst to the person.

But the attention can be fixed on the body, or on the liberation of self from the body, or on salvation, or on attaining nirvana. The actual problem is the state of the attention, which happens to be fixed.

When the fixed attention actually becomes free, there is a feeling of liberation that continues to be there. With this, one attains the certainty that one is much more than some boxed in ideas and thinking patterns. This feeling is real and not the artificial feeling “as an operating thetan.”

When there is no fixed attention either on body or on self, one can then be as large as the reality one is witnessing at any time.

The simple method for freeing fixed attention is mindfulness. One can then view the whole universe for what it is."

As far as I'm concerned, you can take hubbard's cch's, objectives, Op by Dup & TR's and throw them in the dumpster.

I just did, a few years back, a few hundred hours of that shit. It's all crap and overrun and useless. And the bloody scientologists wanted me to next do the survival rundown. I told them they were nuts and walked away.

and that was freeing of attention on the bloody mess called scientology. Hey, I went exterior at that point.

(INTERIORIZATION is the condition of attention being too fixed on [STRIKE]the body[/STRIKE] scientology with the person unaware of it. When that attention is freed up the person feels very liberated.)

 

[Kemist]

I think the best way to address depression is getting the person to talk about his feelings. Then taking walks in the nature and stay with him until she/he is getting better. You have got to catch the feelings which depress and then let the person immerse in it. That's new age tech, not Scientology. I am sure I could manage somehow.

I think sallydannce explained very well why that would not work, and could actually be dangerous to a person in clinical depression.

What I would add to this is that it is a grave mistake to compare the instances where you are "feeling blue" with genuine severe clinical depression.

Often in cases of advanced depression, one stops feeling anything whatsoever. That is when it becomes extremely dangerous, because that's also when you start feeling nothing about the idea of your own death. I can tell you, from personal experience, that no amount of talking, hugs and walk in nature can make the slightest dent in that state of mind. It's as if the people who talked to you came from a different universe, and simple activities like taking a shower take so much of your energy that once someone has coaxed you into doing it, you're ready to go back to sleep.

Another aspect of clinical depression which means that it warrants a consultation with a competent medical professional is that some physiological problems might have it as one of their symptoms. Such is the case of some hormonal problems such as hypothyroidism. This was the case for me, and once my thyroxin levels became normal, the depression went away on its own without any kind of therapy. Not going to the doctor in my case would have delayed treatment and could have caused further problems.

 

[Adam7986]

Depression is a very real illness. In the same way that the flu, or cancer are illnesses. It warrants medicinal treatment, just the same way that any other illness would. Just because it's a "mental" illness doesn't mean that taking walks will 'cure' it. That is a very old and outdated idea that mental illnesses are somehow different than any other illness. The only difference between cancer and depression is the way in which they kill you. If you want to treat depression with magical teas and hugging trees, that's your prerogative. Anyone who thinks they might be suffering from depression should see a doctor.