Scientology: hard and soft, tech and religion

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
Any so-called "I tried it and it worked for me", yeah, it worked! Successful implant and now you're hooked. Isolating the "cognition phenomena" was a piece of genius on Hubbard's part, eh? Yeah, sure...and now you're hooked.

Go ahead, have thousands of "cogs". I've walked around for 3 months with a "floating TA". Yeah, sure, so what? That and $2 will buy a cup of coffee.

All illusion, baby, all illusion.

Right-on Gordon,

and Sorry Leon,
I dont buy what I see as your justifications for errors in judgment
You need to really get the next line, in spades...

Hypnosis works beyond your wildest dreams

The most famous hypnotist of our era was Hitler, but the only one to play Carnegie Hall 7 times to packed houses was Ralph Slater... I put his little book, published in May, 1950 into a big PDF file.. easy to read. This is required reading for anyone seeking to understand what really worked in Scientology.... it was not WHAT Hubbard's silly questions and auditing patters said, it was THAT they repetitively said!

Here is 5 hours of work and a bidding war on Ebay, that is my gift to the Ex-members of ESMB

A PDF of Ralph Slater's HYPNOSIS and Self Hypnosis,
 

yon8008

Patron with Honors
Main thing is that the whole out-point data eval system of LRH's is inherently flawed. It is based on the idea that the out-points given in policy somehow cover all bases, that aberrated people while unknowingly always dramatise these outpoints, that the ones whose outpoints get reported up to data bureau are the most aberrated on staff, and the the one with the most is the worst offender and is the WHY of any lack of progress in the Org.

Each of these points is a fallacy.

Also, it completely exonerates and precludes any possibility that idiot upper management could be a factor in why orgs fail. Hows that for an outpoint?

So it looks like there are out-points of omitted data, false data, and altered importances in the Data Series itself. (I couldn't resist.)

Every idea that comes our way is an opportunity: What is the maximum value that I can gain from this datum?

If you find yourself with poop and raisins... you can use the poop for fertilizer.

If you have instructions for building an airplane and you realize the instructions for building the landing gear are missing, it doesn't mean the instructions are worthless, you just have to exert more independent thought to fill in what's missing.

I was going to say that: approaching the tech (or anything) in the hopes of finding that all the important thoughts have been thought by some external authority is courting disaster. But No one thinks they let others do their thinking for them. But we look around and we can see it. Funny that.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
I'm interested in this. As I said when I introduced myself, I tend to assume that at least some things in Scientology probably do work as far as they go. It would be interesting if we could actually pin down which these are, if there are any. Are these courses possibly 'the ones that work'? Just what do they deliver?

Have you read "Mate's" opening couple of posts or his current thread? That seems to be about the finest and most complete essay on the board having to do with what works and what does not work in Scientology Tech. I am very much in agreement with what he says. I'll give you a few personal twists below.

Of course the alternative hypothesis is simply that people who get into Scientology young naturally happen to go through the big maturing stages of the early twenties while they're doing Scientology. They attribute these steps of personal growth to Scientology, when in fact they would have happened in college, or the Marine Corps, or the first job, or the first relationship, or whatever.

This alternative hypotheses which you state has very little to no merit as far as I am concerned. I got in at age 30 and had already been through university and had a Bachelor's degree, I know of many other people in that same boat, one of whom is Heber Jentzsch. The steps of personal growth usually occur when reading a book or a code of Scientology and then putting one of the principles into practice. Also steps of growth occur when receiving certain auditing actions or receiving a good ethics handling or things of that nature. In most cases, the type of book learning done in the university does not lead one for one to steps in maturing the way doing The Scientology Bridge does. There are gains to be had in doing parts of the Scientology Bridge and equal or even bigger gains to be had in undoing parts of the Scientology Bridge and reconnecting with the various Codes of Scientology which enticed you in to joining in the first place but which were not allowed to actually be practiced while one was a member of the C of S.

My personal favorite actions on the Bridge:
Life Repair, analyzing the 8 dynamics and the various flows between them.
Grade 1 - Problems Release
Grade 4 - Spotting your Service Facsimile and blowing it. (Your make right mechanism).
Grade 5 and 5a, Power and Power Plus. It seemed like a test drive of being OT. You were always blown out and euphoric and were in a games type of condition and felt you were OT but it was only a key out and not permanent.
Dianetics - The first encounters when you believe you have run a past life.
Expanded Dianetics - Tailor made and hand crafted programs tailored to handle things you wanted handled using Dianetic R3R commands.
Old OT 5,6 and 7. Exercises in increasing intention and postulating.
Audited NOTs - New OT5 - it seemed to contain some theory which helped better explain what OT3 was all about. The sessions were very short but you could feel changes occuring in your space and the way you were viewing things. Sometimes when leaving the sessiion, one's whole space would seem different, also quieter. For those of you who have had Chiropractic, if you get one of those once a year type adjustments where the Chiro pulls sharply on your head and there is a lot of pleasant cracking sounds and it feels as if he lengthened your neck and or spinal column an inch or two and then when you stand up your viewpoint is different, that is how I felt after a good NOTs session.

Also, Studying the Org Board - I like the awareness characteristics associated with each Department plus the thetan, mind, body, product arrangement of the entire board as concatenations from the top down. I also like how particles flowed vertically or horizontally on the board.

That was a thumbnail of the stuff I found helpful. I could probably write something just as long or longer for the stuff which I didn't like.
Lakey
 
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Smilla

Ordinary Human
This alternative hypotheses which you state has very little to no merit as far as I am concerned. I got in at age 30 and had already been through university and had a Bachelor's degree, I know of many other people in that same boat, one of whom is Heber Jentzsch. The steps of personal growth usually occur when reading a book or a code of Scientology and then putting one of the principles into practice. Also steps of growth occur when receiving certain auditing actions or receiving a good ethics handling or things of that nature. In most cases, the type of book learning done in the university does not lead one for one to steps in maturing the way doing The Scientology Bridge does. There are gains to be had in doing parts of the Scientology Bridge and equal or even bigger gains to be had in undoing parts of the Scientology Bridge and reconnecting with the various Codes of Scientology which enticed you in to joining in the first place but which were not allowed to actually be practiced while one was a member of the C of S.

My personal favorite actions on the Bridge:
Life Repair, analyzing the 8 dynamics and the various flows between them.
Grade 1 - Problems Release
Grade 4 - Spotting your Service Facsimile and blowing it. (Your make right mechanism).
Grade 5 and 5a, Power and Power Plus. It seemed like a test drive of being OT. You were always blown out and euphoric and were in a games type of condition and felt you were OT but it was only a key out and not permanent.
Dianetics - The first encounters when you believe you have run a past life.
Expanded Dianetics - Tailor made and hand crafted probrams tailored to handle things you wanted handled using Dianetic R3R commands.
Old OT 5,6 and 7. Exercises in increasing intention and postulating.
Audited NOTs - New OT5 - it seemed to contain some theory which helped better explain what OT3 was all about. The sessions were very short but you could feel changes occuring in your space and the way you were viewing things. Sometimes when leaving the sessiion, one's whole space would seem different, also quieter. For those of you who have had Chiropractic, if you get one of those once a year type adjustments where the Chiro pulls sharply on your head and there is a lot of pleasant cracking sounds and it feels as if he lengthened your neck and or spinal column an inch or two and then when you stand up your viewpoint is different, that is how I felt after a good NOTs session.

Also, Studying the Org Board - I like the awareness characteristics associated with each Department plus the thetan, mind, body, product arrangement of the entire board as concatenations from the top down. I also like how particles flowed vertically or horizontally on the board.

That was a thumbnail of the stuff I found helpful. I could probably write something just as long or longer for the stuff which I found harmful.
Lakey
I found Life Repair and Power, Power Plus, to be pretty good too. Grades were OK, but a bit too drawn out. Think I overran. OT 1 was cool. OT D/R and all that was rather boring. OT III nah, OTVII nah.
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Arnie, I'd be interested in reading your book on hynosis but I just can't get the link to work. I also looked on your webpage but don't find it there either.

Sort something out here please.

L
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
OK. I have found some copies of the book for sale on the web. I'll read and get back to you on this later.

What I experienced was hypnotism only if all of life is a hypnotic state. Otherwise not. Case gain is real.


till later


Leon
 
Of course the alternative hypothesis is simply that people who get into Scientology young naturally happen to go through the big maturing stages of the early twenties while they're doing Scientology. They attribute these steps of personal growth to Scientology, when in fact they would have happened in college, or the Marine Corps, or the first job, or the first relationship, or whatever.

A. Speculation to justify opinion in the face of a complete absence of data. :eyeroll:

B. Contrary to the facts of my own involvement with the Co$ and that of many scientologists whom I have known.

I will grant you that many of the S.O. recruits I have met over the years were in fact hapless uneducated kids when they first became involved with scientology. But then the SO has always been a "special case". :whistling:


Mark A. Baker
 

Veda

Sponsor
A. Speculation to justify opinion in the face of a complete absence of data. :eyeroll:

B. Contrary to the facts of my own involvement with the Co$ and that of many scientologists whom I have known.

I will grant you that many of the S.O. recruits I have met over the years were in fact hapless uneducated kids when they first became involved with scientology. But then the SO has always been a "special case". :whistling:


Mark A. Baker

Scientology was a truth&mental-healing-coated, deceitful, Fair-Game-Law-applying, Hard-Sell-abusing, totalist mind-control cult before the Sea Org existed.

Do me a personal favor, will ya: cool it on your picking on people - especially kids - who've been through the Sea Org experience.

Your latest crack about them being "special case. :whistling:" is going over the line.

You don't need to stomp on Sea Org kids to enhance your already bloated sense of superiority. Give it a rest.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Framing an alternative hypothesis is not justifying an opinion without evidence. And in a subject like this, a few anecdotal exceptions are not sufficient to disprove a general hypothesis. They are of course still valuable data, and enough of them collected will discredit the hypothesis.

Thank you, Lakey, for an explicit reply. Most of it is, however, completely meaningless to me! I have seen these kinds of claims many times, but never seen them explained in ordinary language, so I've never known what to make of them. I've taken the liberty of reposting your answer with the terms that mean nothing to me, in this context, in bold. If you had the time to translate these into concrete terms and ordinary language, I'd be very grateful.

My personal favorite actions on the Bridge:
Life Repair, analyzing the 8 dynamics and the various flows between them.
Grade 1 - Problems Release
Grade 4 - Spotting your Service Facsimile and blowing it. (Your make right mechanism).
Grade 5 and 5a, Power and Power Plus. It seemed like a test drive of being OT. You were always blown out and euphoric and were in a games type of condition and felt you were OT but it was only a key out and not permanent.
Dianetics - The first encounters when you believe you have run a past life.
Expanded Dianetics - Tailor made and hand crafted programs tailored to handle things you wanted handled using Dianetic R3R commands.
Old OT 5,6 and 7. Exercises in increasing intention and postulating.
Audited NOTs - New OT5 - it seemed to contain some theory which helped better explain what OT3 was all about. The sessions were very short but you could feel changes occuring in your space and the way you were viewing things. Sometimes when leaving the sessiion, one's whole space would seem different, also quieter.
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
If it is possible for a person to be traumatised and mentally scarred through extremely bad experiences, then by undoing those mental scars - freeing the person from them - one produces case gain and the person gets better.

There is no reason to suppose that such betterment is the result of hypnosis. There is no reason why the techniques of producing such betterment should not form a subject which can be learned.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Answers for Student of Trinity

Framing an alternative hypothesis is not justifying an opinion without evidence. And in a subject like this, a few anecdotal exceptions are not sufficient to disprove a general hypothesis. They are of course still valuable data, and enough of them collected will discredit the hypothesis.

Thank you, Lakey, for an explicit reply. Most of it is, however, completely meaningless to me! I have seen these kinds of claims many times, but never seen them explained in ordinary language, so I've never known what to make of them. I've taken the liberty of reposting your answer with the terms that mean nothing to me, in this context, in bold. If you had the time to translate these into concrete terms and ordinary language, I'd be very grateful.

S of T: This one time I am going to supply some answers. If you are serious about knowing what you claim you want to know and understand, sooner or later, you are going to have to read and study some definitions on your own. What I am doing is called in education, "Spoon Feeding You". You owe me a favor for taking the time to do this for you.

Life repair - The flows between the various dynamics. My auditor asked me, for example, how does your first dynamic relate to your second dynamic? I would give examples, well if I take a shower daily and groom myself, I will have a better chance of getting a girlfriend. If a have a hobby, such as sailing, maybe I will meet someone nice at a sailing club meeting. This is run until you voice a win and the needle on the meter floats. Then a harder question is asked, the reverse flow, how does the second dynamic aid or relate to your first dynamic? Well it appeals to my sense of aesthetics, it gives me motivation to make something of myself, etc.

Grade 1 - Problems Release - You study on the meter, Hubbard's definition of a problem which is defined as two opposing forces of equal strength pressing on you in opposite directions such as two water jets from fire hoses clashing in mid air and forming a barrier. You then run some problems and go earlier similar in your life until you find the first time a particular problem arose. Maybe at age 5, your Mom wanted you to eat and a friend came by and wanted to play and you did not know which to do. Seeing the first time it happened in your life and analyzing your reactions will sually give you added insights. Once you can spot the source of a problem, you can make the problem vanish. Maybe you can not solve it in one sitting but then you can write out a series of steps or a program to solve it.. Say you have a problem that the IRS is after you for money. You want to change the problem to a situation, and in particular a situation for which you have a handling. You write up a program to handle your problem. Perhaps you call the IRS, you try to arrange payments. Maybe they want some paperwork from you. You supply the paper work. Oddly, once you have worked out a handling in present time and begin doing the first step, then you no longer have a problem, you have a situation which is in the process of being handled. As soon as you identify the source of your problem, compose a handling and start on step 1 of your handling, your mind is freed up to work in present time. THIS IS A SIMPLE TOOL, REALLY JUST COMMON SENSE AND IT WORKS. MANY SUCCESSFUL PEOPLE MAY FIGURE IT OUT ON THEIR OWN BUT MANY DON'T, HUBBARD HAS CODIFIED HOW TO HANDLE THIS AREA OF LIFE. Also, he adds the step of looking earlier similar into your past. Some people do not accept this as valid but many do. Often, if you unburden a chain of similar problems, you experiemce a sense of relief and parts of your mind which were frozen at that time on some old problem get freed up and those parts of the mind can be now used again in present time. THAT IS THE THEORY OF THE PROBLEMS RELEASE TECHNOLOGY. IT WORKED FOR ME.

This post is getting way too long explaining this stuff so I am stopping here, I will clarify a few more points for you later on, possibly this evening. I hope this helps you understand things better.
Lakey
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
My Gawd, Lakey. What kind of Scientology did you do? When? Where?

What you describe as Life Repair is actually an action called Exchange by Dynamics. While it is not wrong to do it during Life Repair it is not what was originally meant by the term.

In routine grades auditing the auditor knowingly restimulates a portion of charge in the bank and then proceeds to destinulate it by running the process. This process results in the full End Phenomena which has that portion of charge thoroughly keyed out. Life Repair, by contrast, is intended to key out those portions of charge that were restinulated by the living of life itself, charge that the person came into Scio with. It is handled by way of light TWComm processes.

Grade One, Problems - First and foremost, if the person needs to "do" something about the problem then the process is not flat. Properly run problems processes result in the problem vanishing. There should be nothing left to "handle" at all. It's GONE! There are many problems processes, all should be run.

I presume that the way you ran it is what the CofS is doing now. How sad. The original Tech really is gone.
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't mean to throw a spanner in the works for you buddy, but you really did do something different to Scio if what you describe is an accurate refection of what you did.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
My Gawd, Lakey. What kind of Scientology did you do? When? Where?

What you describe as Life Repair is actually an action called Exchange by Dynamics. While it is not wrong to do it during Life Repair it is not what was originally meant by the term.

In routine grades auditing the auditor knowingly restimulates a portion of charge in the bank and then proceeds to destinulate it by running the process. This process results in the full End Phenomena which has that portion of charge thoroughly keyed out. Life Repair, by contrast, is intended to key out those portions of charge that were restinulated by the living of life itself, charge that the person came into Scio with. It is handled by way of light TWComm processes.

Grade One, Problems - First and foremost, if the person needs to "do" something about the problem then the process is not flat. Properly run problems processes result in the problem vanishing. There should be nothing left to "handle" at all. It's GONE! There are many problems processes, all should be run.

I presume that the way you ran it is what the CofS is doing now. How sad. The original Tech really is gone.

Leon, I did my Life Repair in November of 1970 at Celebrity Centre L.A., I also did ARC straightwire at the same time. Its a long time ago, but I am pretty sure that exchange by dynamics was on my Life Repair. I had purchased a 25 hour intensive at CCLA which ran around $750 at the time which is about $4,000 in today's money. I think that I used the entire 25 hours to do Life Repair, I was pretty messed up socially when I started, although I was doing well at a well paying aerospace job. Between the TR's course and 25 hours of of Life Repair, I felt I could succeed brilliantly in the non Scientology world and seriously thought of not taking any further courses. The exchange by dynamics was far from the entire Life Repair, it was just my favorite thing on it so I used it as an example for Student of Trinity.

On Grade 1 - If the IRS is sending someone threatening letters and / or levying their bank accounts and emptying all funds and on your Grade One, you went into session and the whole problem with the IRS was made to vanish I would sign up for a refresher Grade 1 right now! That ability sounds more like OT XV to me, I could "As-Is" the entire IRS - now that is a real ability to have. To me, you could get relief in a Grade 1 session and bring more "attention units" of your mind into present time - S of T, attention units to you would mean using more of the capabilities of your brain or bringing more of your brain to bear on a problem in present time rather than letting it dwell on past failures or upsets. I did all my Grades in 1972.

Leon,your explanation of how the grades processes work is excellent, but only if someone already understands Scientology terms and basics. I do not know if you looked at Student of Trinity's post before mine where he asked me to put my wins into plain English, not Scientologese. He claims not to understand Scientologese and wanted it in plain English. My replies are an effort to give a non Scientologists an idea of the wins which were obtained in plain English. He did not underline the word dynamics as a term which he did not understand so I just used exchange by dynamics for my example since he indirectly let me know he knew what the dynmaics are. There was method to my madness. My examples were geared to be very real and understandable to those who have almost no Scientology background. If you read S of T's request of me and then re read my answers for him, I think my post will make more sense to you (I hope so!).
Lakey
 
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lkwdblds

Crusader
Maybe so!

I don't mean to throw a spanner in the works for you buddy, but you really did do something different to Scio if what you describe is an accurate refection of what you did.

No problem Leon! I really like your take on things and enjoy your points of view and always gain something from them. Perhaps the stuff I got was not actual Scio and maybe that's why it worked for me. That would be a good way to placate all those on ESMB who feel there is nothing of value in Hubbards tech. They say, wow, that explains that guy Lakey, he seems more like one of us but for some reason he likes parts of Scio tech. Now they can say, well Lakey liked it because it was not true LRH - now it all makes sense.

Then they might say, but that guy Leon, what is with him? He did real Scio down in New Zealand and he still thinks it has value. What is his problem? Lakey is not my real name, just my screen name and it has its own valence. One of the traits of the Lakey valence is to "keep 'em guessing."
Lakey
 
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Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
OK. I have found some copies of the book for sale on the web. I'll read and get back to you on this later.

What I experienced was hypnotism only if all of life is a hypnotic state. Otherwise not. Case gain is real.


till later


Leon

The link sometimes takes a while to connect cause its a BIG pdf
you can view the directiory at http://www.Lermanet.com/reference/

scroll down to RalphSlater then select it
http://www.lermanet.com/reference/Ralp-Slater-Hypnosis-1950.pdf
and yeah it is slow for me too.. when i just tried it but give it a few minutes
I dont like reading crappy scans, so i did it at 300 dpi so the file is huge
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
right click, save as, worked fine too..
and it appears the file is being downloaded by pile of people right now.. I wonder how many are Bill Yaude?
so be patient
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Thanks, Lakey; I'll be happy to return the favor if you ask for something comparable. And if you can find time later to explain more, that would be great.

What can I say, though? The gains you describe in normal language sound like real and worthwhile things, all right. But: I'm pretty sure lots of people gain those kinds of understanding without any help from Scientology. Most people, in fact, at some point or other.

The only things I see here as being particular to Scientology are the apparent insistence that all problems involve being caught between two goals, and that all solutions involve finding some similar problem earlier in one's life. Those kinds of conflicting-goal problems do exist, and they're bad; but not all problems are like that. And some problems turn out to have roots in childhood incidents, but not all do. So, other approaches than Scientology seem to me to provide just as much insight, with more flexibility.

At this point my impression is that at least the early parts of Scientology might help a lot more than simply sitting around being miserable, but that if you've got the initiative to look for and apply a solution to the things in your life that suck, there are lots of even more effective solutions than Scientology. Heck, listening to one's grandmother might do the job, and most grandmothers work for free. So it's not really the right question, to ask whether Scientology works at all. The question is whether it works better than other things that are readily available and come without the cost and toxic additives. So far, I'm not seeing any signs that it does.

And this is where the Scientologese seems to me to be a serious problem in itself. It makes basic common sense and ordinary human wisdom sound like some kind of exotic high technology. It's like selling bottled tapwater as Dihydrogen Monoxide, for a hundred bucks a pint. It sucks people in to paying for stuff that's available elsewhere for free, and it may get people to swallow a lot of bad stuff along with the good, because good and bad are hard to tell apart when they're both described in Hubbard's jargon.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Thanks, Lakey; I'll be happy to return the favor if you ask for something comparable. And if you can find time later to explain more, that would be great.

What can I say, though? The gains you describe in normal language sound like real and worthwhile things, all right. But: I'm pretty sure lots of people gain those kinds of understanding without any help from Scientology. Most people, in fact, at some point or other.

Most people?

Perhaps a good question.

Life repair is fairly unusual in scn tech in that it is directed to the
specific " Wants handled" of the client. It can thus use a wide panpoly of
tech procedures. To handle what the client wants handled.

Again I draw the parallel to mainstream psychotherapeutic councelling,
which a very large minority of people, least in the US, wish to partake of.

That mainstream therapy may deliver, does not negate what scn can achieve.

I submit here the idea here that the grades done after those specific
handlings of needed matters rises above in effectiveness to most standard
therapy.

The only things I see here as being particular to Scientology are the apparent insistence that all problems involve being caught between two goals, and that all solutions involve finding some similar problem earlier in one's life. Those kinds of conflicting-goal problems do exist, and they're bad; but not all problems are like that. And some problems turn out to have roots in childhood incidents, but not all do. So, other approaches than Scientology seem to me to provide just as much insight, with more flexibility.

Maybe. Personally I doubt it. However early trauma handling does seem to have been " stolen" from mainstream psychotherapy. the mainstream now in places follow scn D/N in looking at past lives.

At this point my impression is that at least the early parts of Scientology might help a lot more than simply sitting around being miserable, but that if you've got the initiative to look for and apply a solution to the things in your life that suck, there are lots of even more effective solutions than Scientology. Heck, listening to one's grandmother might do the job, and most grandmothers work for free. So it's not really the right question, to ask whether Scientology works at all. The question is whether it works better than other things that are readily available and come without the cost and toxic additives. So far, I'm not seeing any signs that it does.

The best research from here is suck it and see. But it would have to have a genuine interest in betterment.

And this is where the Scientologese seems to me to be a serious problem in itself. It makes basic common sense and ordinary human wisdom sound like some kind of exotic high technology. It's like selling bottled tapwater as Dihydrogen Monoxide, for a hundred bucks a pint. It sucks people in to paying for stuff that's available elsewhere for free, and it may get people to swallow a lot of bad stuff along with the good, because good and bad are hard to tell apart when they're both described in Hubbard's jargon.

Human wisdom of course IS exotic high technology and is in general
a rare commodity.
 
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