Scientology: hard and soft, tech and religion

[thetanic]

Well, since you are a physicist, I was thinking of actual physical data resulting from biomonitoring of brain activity during the process of auditing up to the point a "release" state has been achieved.

How distractive an environment the equipment would pose could be an adverse factor, and time with that sort of equipment could be a bit pricey, but the results would certainly be interesting and informative.

Could be done in an MRI and compared to other processes MRI-wise. You wouldn't get an exactly similar result because there's no way to really look at the auditor in the way one normally would in session.

Still, it'd be interesting.

 

[Zinjifar]

But, the test of a 'theory' is its predictions.

Ron's 'theories' are completely debunked.

Zinj

 

[AnonKat]

Hell I am intrested how it holds up to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing

Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) is a form of psychotherapy that was developed to resolve symptoms resulting from disturbing and unresolved life experiences. It uses a structured approach to address past, present, and future aspects of disturbing memories. The approach was developed by Francine Shapiro[1] to resolve the development of trauma-related disorders as resulting from exposure to a traumatic or distressing event, such as rape or military combat. Clinical trials have been conducted to assess EMDR's efficacy in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).[2] In some studies it has been shown to be equivalent to cognitive behavioral therapy and exposure therapies, and more effective than some alternative treatments (see effectiveness sections below). Although some clinicians may use EMDR for various problems, its research support is primarily for disorders stemming from distressing life experiences.[3][4]

 

[Smilla]

Could be done in an MRI and compared to other processes MRI-wise. You wouldn't get an exactly similar result because there's no way to really look at the auditor in the way one normally would in session.

Still, it'd be interesting.

The problem lies in working out what the results you get mean. Not at all easy to do. For instance, would you be able to differentiate what is coming from the auditing and what is coming from the pimple on the guys backside that is bugging him, or the fact that he is a bit constipated, or that his wife wasn't horny last night when he was. The machinery part is the easiest - everything after that is much more difficult.

 

[AnonKat]

But, the test of a 'theory' is its predictions.

Ron's 'theories' are completely debunked.

Zinj

It has never been approached scientificly onley with the what you KNOW aprach. I for one are intrested in a trail set up.

 

[Smilla]

Hell I am intrested how it holds up to this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing

Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) is a form of psychotherapy that was developed to resolve symptoms resulting from disturbing and unresolved life experiences. It uses a structured approach to address past, present, and future aspects of disturbing memories. The approach was developed by Francine Shapiro[1] to resolve the development of trauma-related disorders as resulting from exposure to a traumatic or distressing event, such as rape or military combat. Clinical trials have been conducted to assess EMDR's efficacy in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).[2] In some studies it has been shown to be equivalent to cognitive behavioral therapy and exposure therapies, and more effective than some alternative treatments (see effectiveness sections below). Although some clinicians may use EMDR for various problems, its research support is primarily for disorders stemming from distressing life experiences.[3][4]

I had some - it was good.

 

[Zinjifar]

It has never been approached scientificly onley with the what you KNOW aprach. I for one are intrested in a trail set up.

Ron predicted the end of the world if it wasn't 'cleared' within years.

Nope

Zinj

 

[Smilla]

But, the test of a 'theory' is its predictions.

Ron's 'theories' are completely debunked.

Zinj

Yes - exactly. It says on the pack of aspirin that it relieves headaches, not that it cures baldness, or makes your breasts bigger.

 

[AnonKat]

Ron predicted the end of the world if it wasn't 'cleared' within years.

Nope

Zinj

you are avoiding the subject by "fair weather open roads" the ex sci version lol

 

[thetanic]

Yes - exactly. It says on the pack of aspirin that it relieves headaches, not that it cures baldness, or makes your breasts bigger.

So all that aspirin I snuck while I was onlines (and never gave up as a withhold) is the reason I have large breasts?

Excellent.

 

[Student of Trinity]

Right. There's not actually much 'biomonitoring of brain activity' that is currently possible. You can put electrodes around your head to measure the tiny electric fields generated by all the sub-microscopic ion streams squirting around neurons, but the spatial resolution is pathetic, and you can only really see the outer surface of the brain. You can do functional magnetic resonance imaging to monitor blood flow in 3D with millimeter spatial resolution, but how blood flow relates to neural function, let alone mental function, is unclear. That's about it, as far as I know. Oh, yeah, there's positron emission tomography, but that's just another way to measure blood flow.

It seems unlikely that auditing would have any particular effect on these crude measurements, anyway. All the input is in fairly sophisticated words, right? That means that if it's affecting the brain, it's doing it at a pretty intricate level. Trying to detect effects of auditing with electrodes or fMRI would be kind of like trying to compare the effects of different strategies in Halo by watching a magnetic compass sitting on top of the XBox. It'll swing around a bit, maybe, but not in a way that tells you much about how things are working out for Master Chief.

Of course, if fMRI and PET and electroencephalographs are too crude to tell us much about the mind, the implications for the e-meter are pretty dire.

 

[AnonKat]

Right. There's not actually much 'biomonitoring of brain activity' that is currently possible. You can put electrodes around your head to measure the tiny electric fields generated by all the sub-microscopic ion streams squirting around neurons, but the spatial resolution is pathetic, and you can only really see the outer surface of the brain. You can do fMRI to monitor blood flow in 3D with millimeter spatial resolution, but how blood flow relates to neural function, let alone mental function, is unclear. That's about it, as far as I know.

It seems unlikely that auditing would have any particular effect on these crude measurements, anyway. All the input is in fairly sophisticated words, right? That means that if it's affecting the brain, it's doing it at a pretty intricate level. Trying to detect effects of auditing with electrodes or fMRI would be kind of like trying to compare the effects of different strategies in Halo by watching a magnetic compass sitting on top of the XBox. It'll swing around a bit, maybe, but not in a way that tells you much about Halo.

Of course, if fMRI and electroencephalographs are too crude to tell us much about the mind, the implications for the e-meter are pretty dire.

They have identified certain functions of areas of the brain and even looked at how it showe d up with sex and orgasms I think

 

[Smilla]

So all that aspirin I snuck while I was onlines (and never gave up as a withhold) is the reason I have large breasts?

Excellent.

I'm gonna try it myself :wink2:

 

[Smilla]

Right. There's not actually much 'biomonitoring of brain activity' that is currently possible. You can put electrodes around your head to measure the tiny electric fields generated by all the sub-microscopic ion streams squirting around neurons, but the spatial resolution is pathetic, and you can only really see the outer surface of the brain. You can do fMRI to monitor blood flow in 3D with millimeter spatial resolution, but how blood flow relates to neural function, let alone mental function, is unclear. That's about it, as far as I know.

It seems unlikely that auditing would have any particular effect on these crude measurements, anyway. All the input is in fairly sophisticated words, right? That means that if it's affecting the brain, it's doing it at a pretty intricate level. Trying to detect effects of auditing with electrodes or fMRI would be kind of like trying to compare the effects of different strategies in Halo by watching a magnetic compass sitting on top of the XBox. It'll swing around a bit, maybe, but not in a way that tells you much about Halo.

Of course, if fMRI and electroencephalographs are too crude to tell us much about the mind, the implications for the e-meter are pretty dire.

Exactly, and if you want a laugh you should get an e-meter and play around with it. It's more akin to a Ouija board than a scientific instrument. In my opinion there is much conscious and unconscious manipulation of the e-meter electrodes on the part of the subject for various reasons. It's just too crude to be taken seriously.

 

[yon8008]

...
It seems unlikely that auditing would have any particular effect on these crude measurements, anyway. All the input is in fairly sophisticated words, right? That means that if it's affecting the brain, it's doing it at a pretty intricate level. Trying to detect effects of auditing with electrodes or fMRI would be kind of like trying to compare the effects of different strategies in Halo by watching a magnetic compass sitting on top of the XBox. It'll swing around a bit, maybe, but not in a way that tells you much about how things are working out for Master Chief.
...

Hysterical! And right on.

You're back to IQ tests, OCAs, Memory tests, Remote viewing experiments, and subjective success story statements. (Might also consider including any other psyche tests like MN Multiphasic.)

Seems easier to just get some auditing to see for yourself, than trying to test it on the via of 10 other people and 10 controls.

-----------
I would still love to see the results of Auditing with the brain scan mult-electrode cap. Might might be the same as watching TV, or it might be incredible.

 

[Smilla]

Hysterical! And right on.

You're back to IQ tests, OCAs, Memory tests, Remote viewing experiments, and subjective success story statements. (Might also consider including any other psyche tests like MN Multiphasic.)

Seems easier to just get some auditing to see for yourself, than trying to test it on the via of 10 other people and 10 controls.

The OCA is a very poor test of anything, rarely used outside Scientology. IQ tests? You can buy a book and up your score in a weekend. Psychological testing in general is a minefield, and an area of furious disagreements between disciplines. Not easy. Nope.

 

[AnonKat]

HEEY YOU GUYS don't overcomplicate it I want to see what happens with the release !!!! Like sometimes a person cries being massaged

 

[Zinjifar]

I would be surprised if auditing *didn't* show up very noticeably on an MRI.
Much more so than on the crackerjacks 'e-meter'

Zinj

 

[AnonKat]

I would be surprised if auditing *didn't* show up very noticeably on an MRI.
Much more so than on the crackerjacks 'e-meter'

Zinj

A release will, I get it with the whole withhold thing now. But what the hell do I have to spill my inner secrets HELL no.

processing bad shit in your life can be done in many ways.

With the assumption a release will fire the brain up like a christmass three like an orgasm

 

[thetanic]

With the assumption a release will fire the brain up like a christmass three like an orgasm

Pretty much, but it can last a lot longer.

I remember after attesting clear, I had a persistent f/n. Someone needed to do "make a needle dirty" drill and it just didn't work on me then.