Scientology is Anti-Human

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

'


Thank you for your repeated assertions that I am brainwashed/hypnotised/sleeping etc.

I am truely sorry that your brother died in a situation you find so wrong. A situation that he seemed to have chosen for himself, apparently out of love for a woman who scorned him. It is truely a tragedy. Blaming a philosophy or the organization that pretends to support it will not change the past

Changing it will change the future. But I suspect that you will find that calls to demolish the church will be empty crys, when subtle changes to a more positive and less abusive church would be easier and ultimately more effective.

I am at least as well informed about scientology and the chruch as you are, but have come to different conclusions than you. Maybe it is just that I have not had the horrible experiences that you have, or it may be that I CAN see the wrong things but also have a larger context to place them in.

People die. 200 off the radar today on Air France. Stop flying? Some will.

You keep bringing up anti democratic as if it is a crime to be against mob rule, (essentially what a purely democratic system is). You want other people to side with you and act as the anon say as your own personal army, to stop something you no longer believe in. But that wont happen.

If you have specific crimes you are aware of involving the church, report them to the authorities. If they wont act, change the laws, gather your mob and vote for whatever imposition of will on others beliefs you want.

If you can.

I believe you do your cause a disservice when you do not focus on exact incidents, documented and placed in front of interested and authoritative parties.

Alex,
It may behoove you to take a look at why many here do not take your assertions serious and consider you a hypocrite.

For one, you seem to very often dodge the very vital question of the inherent abuses of Scientology. Comparing the ruined lives caused by Scientology to an airplane accident is so disengenuous that even you must see that.

The airplane did not intend on crashing. The crashing was an accident. There are probably ten thousand flights a day across the world but only a few planes crash a year.

But in Scientology so many lives are ruined, families disconnected per policy, people pressured into financial ruin, children undereducate per policy, and all this on a daily basis.

And somehow always you tend to write it off as not part of the philosophy but the actions of a few bad or incompetent people.

I think we can say that the Nazis were bad. They had lofty rhetoric about creating a world of culture and order that would last 1,000 years.

But this is not why we think they are bad. We consider them bad because of what they did all in the name of those lofty goals.

Surely you don't think that Nazism was a benefit to mankind and that the bad things were only from the actions of a few bad guys?

Your arguments always comes down to "The ends of the philosophy excuses the bad thing that result from it."

What you won't acknowledge which most of us know from experience is that the damage, the manipulation, the broken families, the intimdation, are part and parcel of Scientology. It is how it operates, and I have never seen it operate in any other fashion.

I have talked to several people who praised Stalin. They really do appreciate the guy. They said he had lofty goals for mankind (and in writing of course) and in their personal lives they were winning under him.

I just thought you should know that you sound like one of those people.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[CornPie]

...I do wish for reform of the church...

Alex, in post #39 of this thread, you said,
"...I do wish for reform of the church..."

My question is, what reforms would you like to see of scientology?

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Millions of hours of auditing.

Training thousands of people in the workings of the human mind and in its relationship to the spirit.

Those are the core activities of scientology and its primary means of working towards its goals.

I know that is what Scientology would like people to believe it can accomplish, but so does just about every other mass marketed product sold on late night infomercials. If you are going to claim an organization which main purpose is to separate it's members with their money has noble goals, you might as well say this man has noble goals too, since he also claims to help mankind

http://www.donstewartassociation.com/tabid/8135/Default.aspx

As least he won't send his "noble members" to your doorstep to drag you in for reprogramming, if you happen to change your mind regarding the nobility of his intentions, or try to bury you financially and ruin your reputation if you disagree with his tactics ... the same can not be said for the cult of Scientology.

 

[alex]

Alex,
It may behoove you to take a look at why many here do not take your assertions serious and consider you a hypocrite.

For one, you seem to very often dodge the very vital question of the inherent abuses of Scientology. Comparing the ruined lives caused by Scientology to an airplane accident is so disengenuous that even you must see that.

The airplane did not intend on crashing. The crashing was an accident. There are probably ten thousand flights a day across the world but only a few planes crash a year.

But in Scientology so many lives are ruined, families disconnected per policy, people pressured into financial ruin, children undereducate per policy, and all this on a daily basis.

And somehow always you tend to write it off as not part of the philosophy but the actions of a few bad or incompetent people.

I think we can say that the Nazis were bad. They had lofty rhetoric about creating a world of culture and order that would last 1,000 years.

But this is not why we think they are bad. We consider them bad because of what they did all in the name of those lofty goals.

Surely you don't think that Nazism was a benefit to mankind and that the bad things were only from the actions of a few bad guys?

Your arguments always comes down to "The ends of the philosophy excuses the bad thing that result from it."

What you won't acknowledge which most of us know from experience is that the damage, the manipulation, the broken families, the intimdation, are part and parcel of Scientology. It is how it operates, and I have never seen it operate in any other fashion.

I have talked to several people who praised Stalin. They really do appreciate the guy. They said he had lofty goals for mankind (and in writing of course) and in their personal lives they were winning under him.

I just thought you should know that you sound like one of those people.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I think that you read into what I say, elements of your own thinking about scientology.

No one intends to do scientology to be abused either, so scientology, like a crashing plan is doing something outside its design parameters.

Scientology is not a living volitional thing, all actions of "IT" must be the result of human actions, interpretations of its design, implementation of its principles.

Families are not disconnected "per policy". Yes there is a policy on disconnection, but a reading of the whole of the applicable policy would show that how the church seems to apply it is outside those parameters.

I do not deny people have had bad experiences with scientology. Not for a moment.

I argue that they had some degree of involvement with the creation of such and that it is usually a case of aberrated application of what ever principles that are the apparent "reason".

The ends are always an expression of the means. A good end would indicate a correct course of action and the opposite the wrong one.

I would not be here if I felt the Church of Scientology was on a good course or acting correctly.

But also I believe that in its materials are the reasons it has gone astray, solutions to that, and correct guidance for correct action.

It is the people element that has strayed not the concepts.

 

[alex]

Alex, in post #39 of this thread, you said,
"...I do wish for reform of the church..."

My question is, what reforms would you like to see of scientology?

A succession structure that was representative of its members.

The removal of David Miscavage.

and in general what on this link.

http://www.fzaoint.net/reformer.html

and specifically

http://www.fzaoint.net/reformer.html#reform

 

[alex]

I know that is what Scientology would like people to believe it can accomplish, but so does just about every other mass marketed product sold on late night infomercials. If you are going to claim an organization which main purpose is to separate it's members with their money has noble goals, you might as well say this man has noble goals too, since he also claims to help mankind

http://www.donstewartassociation.com/tabid/8135/Default.aspx

As least he won't send his "noble members" to your doorstep to drag you in for reprogramming, if you happen to change your mind regarding the nobility of his intentions, or try to bury you financially and ruin your reputation if you disagree with his tactics ... the same can not be said for the cult of Scientology.

I have never had scientologists come to my home to bring me in.

I am not in financial ruin, nor have I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I have not been under attack to my reputation by scientology.

I have been excluded from membership on occassion, but was welcomed back after some fairly simple self examination and amends.

Your view is an extreme one based on the experiences of very few, second hand accounts.

Or did I miss your story?

 

[well_that_sucked]

I have never had scientologists come to my home to bring me in.

I am not in financial ruin, nor have I spent hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I have not been under attack to my reputation by scientology.

I have been excluded from membership on occassion, but was welcomed back after some fairly simple self examination and amends.

Your view is an extreme one based on the experiences of very few, second hand accounts.

Or did I miss your story?

What about your cult founder ordering the murder of individuals on sight or using your cult tech to deliberately cause them to have a psychotic break?

Then "People die" is your response to Lisa McPherson? Now where have I heard that before?

Your unwillingness to recognize the damage done to your fellow man at the hands of your cult is its basic purpose is frighteningly callous. Your continued defense of it amidst the multitude of exes stories posted on this very site also proves the point. Scientology removes its victims humanity.

Go reform your cult if you feel you can, but I believe you are terrified of speaking up, or speaking out directly to your tyrannical organization that you defend endlessly.

You are powerless to stop the destruction of the cult in the real world, and more so from within, and yet you still you go on and on with bad programming and faulty logic.

 

[alex]

What about your cult founder ordering the murder of individuals on sight or using your cult tech to deliberately cause them to have a psychotic break?

Then "People die" is your response to Lisa McPherson? Now where have I heard that before?

Your unwillingness to recognize the damage done to your fellow man at the hands of your cult is its basic purpose is frighteningly callous. Your continued defense of it amidst the multitude of exes stories posted on this very site also proves the point. Scientology removes its victims humanity.

Go reform your cult if you feel you can, but I believe you are terrified of speaking up, or speaking out directly to your tyrannical organization that you defend endlessly.

You are powerless in the real world, and more so within your cult, and yet you still you go on and on with bad programming and faulty logic.

I have openly and repeatedly, and for probably longer than you have had an interest in scientology, referred to Lisa McPhersons death as at the least negligent homicide. And I have also pointed to very damning evaluations of it that implicates David Miscavage as having a hand in it.

For you to characterize me as you do is to demonstrate that you do not read what I say or seem to comprehend it, but mearly respond to me as your preconceived notion of what a "scientologist" is.

Which of course is the logical fallacy of ad hominem, making the argument about the parties involved rather than the issues. (which of course I have also done in the paragraph above)

 

[well_that_sucked]

I have openly and repeatedly, and for probably longer than you have had an interest in scientology, referred to Lisa McPhersons death as at the least negligent homicide. And I have also pointed to very damning evaluations of it that implicates David Miscavage as having a hand in it.

For you to characterize me as you do is to demonstrate that you do not read what I say or seem to comprehend it, but mearly respond to me as your preconceived notion of what a "scientologist" is.

Which of course is the logical fallacy of ad hominem, making the argument about the parties involved rather than the issues. (which of course I have also done in the paragraph above)

Once again your estimation of me is wrong.

I see you exactly for what you are. Perfectly. Which is why I respond to you, nothing more, its not personal. Except not one more person should be subjected to your cult's brand of destruction. Even you should be free.

However, since you are aware of the disgusting things going on in your cult, what are you doing about it? I know... jack shit.

All anyone can see is your continued rambling propaganda and ignoring the facts that clearly define your cult as a danger to humanity. You are here, endlessly defending the cult's insanity that originated from your cult founders psychotic mind and I'm the one that's illogical?

How's them body thetans treating you Alex? You sure you got them all? lol

 

[alex]

Once again your estimation of me is wrong.

I see you exactly for what you are. Perfectly. Which is why I respond to you, nothing more, its not personal. Except not one more person should be subjected to your cult's brand of destruction. Even you should be free.

However, since you are aware of the disgusting things going on in your cult, what are you doing about it? I know... jack shit.

All anyone can see is your continued rambling propaganda and ignoring the facts that clearly define your cult as a danger to humanity. You are here, endlessly defending the cult's insanity that originated from your cult founders psychotic mind and I'm the one that's illogical?

How's them body thetans treating you Alex? You sure you got them all? lol

I am sure I would be amused at a detailed description of "what I am".


This statement by you:

"How's them body thetans treating you Alex? You sure you got them all? lol"

Is what we in scientology refer to as reverse processing.

I will take that as an indicator of your intentions towards me personally. And of your relative sanity.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

How very interesting to see Fair Game and OSA tactics applied by ex members. It's nice to know that hypocrisy is still part of the human condition.

Oh, but wait- it's ok because Right is On Your Side. Ah...but isn't that the same reasoning the cult employs? I rather think that it is.

Rock on!

 

[Panda Termint]

Nice one, Fluffy.

 

[well_that_sucked]

I am sure I would be amused at a detailed description of "what I am".


This statement by you:

"How's them body thetans treating you Alex? You sure you got them all? lol"

Is what we in scientology refer to as reverse processing.

I will take that as an indicator of your intentions towards me personally. And of your relative sanity.

If such a thing as body thetans were real I could see your point, but unfortunately body thetans do not exist, except in the minds of the cult of scientology's deluded followers.

Again, as a devout scientologists that admits to recognizing the serious problems within your cult, what are you doing to bring about change, besides spewing pro cult propaganda on an ex scientologist message board?

Surely your proclaimed ot powers of control over matter energy space and time will yield more results were they to be directed at the source of the problem, which of course is your nasty cult.

 

[alex]

If such a thing as body thetans were real I could see your point, but unfortunately body thetans do not exist, except in the minds of the cult of scientology's deluded followers.

Again, as a devout scientologists that admits to recognizing the serious problems within your cult, what are you doing to bring about change, besides spewing pro cult propaganda on an ex scientologist message board?

Surely your proclaimed ot powers of control over matter energy space and time will yield more results were they to be directed at the source of the problem, which of course is your nasty cult.

The most OT of powers it that of interacting with others.

My expression of my ideas here and elsewhere is how I feel I may be the most effective in creating and co creating the future I envision.

My belief is that vision precedes reality.

I will continue to spew.

 

[well_that_sucked]

The most OT of powers it that of interacting with others.

My expression of my ideas here and elsewhere is how I feel I may be the most effective in creating and co creating the future I envision.

My belief is that vision precedes reality.

I will continue to spew.

More unreal and irresponsible cult logic.

So let me get this straight.

Your cult is facing immense global pressure due to organization wide abuses (that you acknowledge), and in your mind the best thing you can do to bring about change is to spew pro cult propaganda on an ex scientologist message board?

That's funny.

I enjoy my exchanges with you, they allow me to reflect and appreciate all that I avoided when I escaped the clutches of your nasty cult.

 

[FinallyFree]

Alex,
It may behoove you to take a look at why many here do not take your assertions serious and consider you a hypocrite.

For one, you seem to very often dodge the very vital question of the inherent abuses of Scientology. Comparing the ruined lives caused by Scientology to an airplane accident is so disengenuous that even you must see that.

The airplane did not intend on crashing. The crashing was an accident. There are probably ten thousand flights a day across the world but only a few planes crash a year.

But in Scientology so many lives are ruined, families disconnected per policy, people pressured into financial ruin, children undereducate per policy, and all this on a daily basis.

And somehow always you tend to write it off as not part of the philosophy but the actions of a few bad or incompetent people.

I think we can say that the Nazis were bad. They had lofty rhetoric about creating a world of culture and order that would last 1,000 years.

But this is not why we think they are bad. We consider them bad because of what they did all in the name of those lofty goals.

Surely you don't think that Nazism was a benefit to mankind and that the bad things were only from the actions of a few bad guys?

Your arguments always comes down to "The ends of the philosophy excuses the bad thing that result from it."

What you won't acknowledge which most of us know from experience is that the damage, the manipulation, the broken families, the intimdation, are part and parcel of Scientology. It is how it operates, and I have never seen it operate in any other fashion.

I have talked to several people who praised Stalin. They really do appreciate the guy. They said he had lofty goals for mankind (and in writing of course) and in their personal lives they were winning under him.

I just thought you should know that you sound like one of those people.

The Anabaptist Jacques

I have to say that I unequivocally agree.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

I think that you read into what I say, elements of your own thinking about scientology.

No one intends to do scientology to be abused either, so scientology, like a crashing plan is doing something outside its design parameters.

Scientology is not a living volitional thing, all actions of "IT" must be the result of human actions, interpretations of its design, implementation of its principles.

Families are not disconnected "per policy". Yes there is a policy on disconnection, but a reading of the whole of the applicable policy would show that how the church seems to apply it is outside those parameters.

I do not deny people have had bad experiences with scientology. Not for a moment.

I argue that they had some degree of involvement with the creation of such and that it is usually a case of aberrated application of what ever principles that are the apparent "reason".

The ends are always an expression of the means. A good end would indicate a correct course of action and the opposite the wrong one.

I would not be here if I felt the Church of Scientology was on a good course or acting correctly.

But also I believe that in its materials are the reasons it has gone astray, solutions to that, and correct guidance for correct action.

It is the people element that has strayed not the concepts.

This is a cop-out, Alex. The people who perpetuate the abuses are Scientologists. They have had Scientology applied to themselves. They are applying Scientology.

They are not accidental passengers who entered the org and then screwed up. They are applying Scientology to others.

That you are apparently not compentent enough to distinguish what the philosophy implies, and some times explicitly states, is your inability.

Sadly, your reasoning and inabillity to look at what is in front of you is proof enough of the failings of Scientology.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[alex]

This is a cop-out, Alex. The people who perpetuate the abuses are Scientologists. They have had Scientology applied to themselves. They are applying Scientology.

They are not accidental passengers who entered the org and then screwed up. They are applying Scientology to others.

That you are apparently not compentent enough to distinguish what the philosophy implies, and some times explicitly states, is your inability.

Sadly, your reasoning and inabillity to look at what is in front of you is proof enough of the failings of Scientology.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Here is a contrary notion.

The same misunderstanding of the concepts of scientology that you use to denigrate it are what are being applied by those "scientologists"?

That people act out of human fault to the detriment of others, that they fail to understand and apply concepts in a manner that would be for the better is not proof of the fallacy of those concepts.

That I am "not compentent enough to distinguish what the philosophy implies," would seem to indicate that you have interpreted scientology in a manner contrary to its stated intent and basic goal.

If you were to "interprete" it based on what it says rather than how it has been applied, you could then distinguish between it and its followers and their actions.

It seems you chose an interpretation that fits your choice of attitude, rather than one that is workable and worthy.

 

[CornPie]

A succession structure that was representative of its members.

The removal of David Miscavage.

and in general what on this link.

http://www.fzaoint.net/reformer.html

and specifically

http://www.fzaoint.net/reformer.html#reform

Alex, in the FZ document you referenced: http://www.fzaoint.net/reformer.html


"Fair Game" is mentioned 2 times:

1 and 2 -- Mentioned twice in historical context only, but fair game -- the filthiest aspect of scientology -- nowhere is it called to be banned.


"Harassment" is mentioned 3 times:

1 -- Self servingly addresses the Free Zone's (FZ) "legal harassment by the CofS".

2 -- Says what happens if harassment isn't stopped, but nowhere actually calls to stop it. This sounds similar to the double-speak way that the fair game law was supposedly "outlawed".

3. Calls for, "less harassment" -- so on one hand "The Pilot", who authored this document, doesn't want FZ to be harassed by the cOs -- yet he believes there should be "less" overall harassment in his ideal world -- which of course would leave FZ with the discretion to harass as they see fit. I think The Pilot is a wacko, just like hubbard-ass, and miscaviage.


"Xenu" is mentioned zero (0) times:

Am I to understand that FZ still believes in the Xenu BS that hubbard-ass made up? There was no Xenu, no DC-9's, hydrogen bombs, body thetans, clusters, and none of the rest of the OT-3 BS that hubbard-ass made up. It's all BS, pure BS, hubbard-ass made it all up.


I don't know much about FZ, but from what I'm hearing, I doubt things would be any better with FZ, than filthy-scientology.

 

[FinallyFree]

Your cult is facing immense global pressure due to organization wide abuses (that you acknowledge), and in your mind the best thing you can do to bring about change is to spew pro cult propaganda on an ex scientologist message board?

That's funny.

I personally don't find it funny at all. I am having a difficult time not being personally insulted by it. While I understand that it has nothing to do with me personally – I take my experiences in the cult of scientology very personally. I am working very hard on my recovery; it strikes me on a personal level whenever I read anything in defense of scientology.
I am simply assuming this is an indication that I have more work to do. That is fine; I never expected to recover over night. It would be nice if there was a certain level of respect when it comes to the posts on this board and the fact that people were harmed and continue to be harmed. Just slapping blinders on and picking out the bits and pieces that you like of scientology and point those points out, does not cancel the abuses or negate the harm being done.
I have asked these questions before and have gotten silence in response to these two questions when asked of alex:
1. Have you read the book Bare-Faced Messiah by Russell Miller
2. (this is personal so I will understand of you do not want to answer) What are your case and training levels?
And a new one:
3. Have you ever read the “Affirmations” written by hubbard – by his own hand?

I would really like to know alex.