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Scientology is NOT a scam

Gadfly

Crusader
This part I bolded I have no doubt is true. It was true for ME when I was in. I was well-intentioned and was there as you say to help myself and others, not to scam people.

But knowing what I know now I see clearly that it IS a scam.

And when I call it a scam it is not mean't to impugn the character of those involved. I believe that most people in Scientology are in it as a way to help others and believe in what they're doing, and believe that our future on this planet DOES really depend upon what they do within Scientology.

Despite their good intentions though they are marketing services which do not deliver as promised. Not even close. :no:

So from the consumers point of view - it is a scam. They're being sold the states of Clear and OT, but in the way they're described by Hubbard and marketed to Scientologists it's a huge deception. It's a bait and switch. They're being sold 2014 Jaguar XKR-S models fully loaded, but what's being delivered are 1995 Kia's with 100,000 miles on them and out of warranty.

Yes, and even though the staff and salesmen BELIEVE that they are selling 2014 models, in fact, they ARE part of an organized effort to SCAM OTHERS! :clap::clap:
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
This part I bolded I have no doubt is true. It was true for ME when I was in. I was well-intentioned and was there as you say to help myself and others, not to scam people.

Same here.

But knowing what I know now I see clearly that it IS a scam.

Same here, except I don't think it is ALL scam despite how comforting that thought may be.

And when I call it a scam it is not mean't to impugn the character of those involved. I believe that most people in Scientology are in it as a way to help others and believe in what they're doing, and believe that our future on this planet DOES really depend upon what they do within Scientology.

Same here.

Despite their good intentions though they are marketing services which do not deliver as promised. Not even close. :no:

It appears to me that mileages vary but, as to general intent... same here.

So from the consumers point of view - it is a scam. They're being sold the states of Clear and OT, but in the way they're described by Hubbard and marketed to Scientologists it's a huge deception. It's a bait and switch.

No arguments. If you (the general "you") believed the glossy promotional materials, Registrars and Hubbard's hyperbolic claims then, yes, you were bound to be disappointed and feel defrauded.
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

What I mean is that YOU are the SOLE GUARDIAN who stands at the gates of your own mind.

In the end, it is you, and only you who accept, adopt, and agree with ANYTHING.

Yes, Hubbard did create those ideas. But, it was YOU who accepted them. You did that! It was not done "to you", though it may appear to be.

Many people, such as my brother, walked in, got a pinch test, did some intro stuff, and then turned around and walked out, never to return. He simply never accepted or adopted the ideas.

I do get what TAJ means when he says that YOU (via your character) set yourself up for it all. In the end, only you agree or not. Nobody can MAKE you agree, not short of severe sleep deprivation and PDH methods. Though granted, Hubbard wired together a VERY intricate and smooth machine for getting some to accept and adopt his ideas. And yes, Hubbard's methods DO involve advanced methods of mind control and behavioral manipulation.
But they do NOT work on everybody
. I think TAJ's point is that in the end, it is YOU (and your character) who are the sole factor in determining WHO actually gets suckered.

But this is not a blame sort of thing. As I see it, the universe brings to you a perfect mirror representation of WHO you are at any moment. For who we each were at the time, Scientology found us - we gravitated to it. We found each other. Luckily we each grow and change, and as our characters change, so does the universe and the unique situations we attract. That is my current opinion.

And that's I figured out, in red above.

It's either agreement with hubbard's idea's.

And if no agreement,

you are PTS or SP. LOL

And yet Hubbard said Communication was the most important point of the ARC triangle.

Alas, it ain't.

Agreement is.

Communication is the flow to get agreement.

No agreement, you are an enemy. An SP or if idoubt, a PTS.

But, all in all,

since the cause of human aberation is not engrams,

otherwise there would be "clears" and "ot"s roaming the earth. LOL
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!


Repeat after me

Scientology is NOT a scam


portia_hypnotised_by_spongeboy59-d4k1xn1.jpg


 

Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

And that's I figured out, in red above.

It's either agreement with hubbard's idea's.

And if no agreement,

you are PTS or SP. LOL

And yet Hubbard said Communication was the most important point of the ARC triangle.

Alas, it ain't.

Agreement is.

Communication is the flow to get agreement.

No agreement, you are an enemy. An SP or if idoubt, a PTS.

But, all in all,

since the cause of human aberation is not engrams,

otherwise there would be "clears" and "ot"s roaming the earth. LOL

To Hubbard it has always been about agreement. Affinity and communication are used to gain agreement and bring about some desired "understanding". Think of "understanding" as a belief or strong opinion. Understandings can be accurate, exaggerated, incomplete, and can suffer from any sort of imperfection. Most understandings fall far short of the related reality. The idea and the thing it represents are often miles part. Hubbard never discusses the quality of any "understanding". He just tosses out this vague term and equation: ARC=U. STOOPID!

Hubbard knew that a person is largely defined by his or her set of considerations and postulates (mental factors) - which comes down really to agreements. He also knew that people can be fully controlled through what they accept as true.

Hubbard almost never talks in terms of "truth", and only focuses upon "agreement" as the determining factor of establishing "truth" (or what is "real"). To Hubbard, "truths" stem from postulates, considerations and agreements, and there is NO TRUTH outside of those. And, while that is very true for most subjective things, it is NOT necessarily true for physical events involving the past and space, energy, matter and time. Hubbard greatly confused the realms of mind and matter. He mixed them all up in The Factors.

He often really does tell it just like it is though. But then, unbeknownst to you, Hubbard used those same data against you. While you thought and assumed that he was telling you all of this to help and empower you, for example while explaining all about considerations and agreements, Hubbard was at the same time, using it to control you! He tricked you into accepting a whole new large set of interrelated considerations and agreements about a great many things (aka "the Scientology paradigm"). If his aim was truly to "free you", he would have explained how NO set can ever be complete and also not fundamentally arbitrary. But, Hubbard apparently wanted you saddled with HIS set of considerations and agreements. Just WHY that is involves another day.
 
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Gib

Crusader
Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

To Hubbard it has always been about agreement. Affinity and communication are used to gain agreement and bring about some desired "understanding". Think of "understanding" as a belief or strong opinion. Understandings can be accurate, exaggerated, incomplete, and can suffer from any sort of imperfection. Most understandings fall far short of the related reality. The idea and the thing it represents are often miles part. Hubbard never discusses the quality of any "understanding". He just tosses out this vague term and equation: ARC=U. STOOPID!

Hubbard knew that a person is largely defined by his or her set of considerations and postulates (mental factors) - which comes down really to agreements. He also knew that people can be fully controlled through what they accept as true.

Hubbard almost never talks in terms of "truth", and only focuses upon "agreement" as the determining factor of establishing "truth" (or what is "real"). To Hubbard, "truths" stem from postulates, considerations and agreements, and there is NO TRUTH outside of those. Amd, while that is very true for most subjective things, it is NOT true for physical events involving the past and space, energy, matter and time. Hubbard greatly confused the realms of mind and matter.

He often really does tell it just like it is. But then, unbeknownst to you, Hubbard used those same data against you. While you thought and assume that he was telling you all of this to help and empower you, Hubbard was at the same time, using it to control you!

thank You.:thumbsup:
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

To Hubbard it has always been about agreement. Affinity and communication are used to gain agreement and bring about some desired "understanding". Think of "understanding" as a belief or strong opinion.
Understandings can be accurate, exaggerated, incomplete, and can suffer from any sort of imperfection.
Most understandings fall far short of the related reality. The idea and the thing it represents are often miles part. Hubbard never discusses the quality of any "understanding". He just tosses out this vague term and equation: ARC=U. STOOPID!

Hubbard knew that a person is largely defined by his or her set of considerations and postulates (mental factors) - which comes down really to agreements. He also knew that people can be fully controlled through what they accept as true.

Hubbard almost never talks in terms of "truth", and only focuses upon "agreement" as the determining factor of establishing "truth" (or what is "real"). To Hubbard, "truths" stem from postulates, considerations and agreements, and there is NO TRUTH outside of those. Amd, while that is very true for most subjective things, it is NOT true for physical events involving the past and space, energy, matter and time. Hubbard greatly confused the realms of mind and matter.

He often really does tell it just like it is. But then, unbeknownst to you, Hubbard used those same data against you. While you thought and assumed that he was telling you all of this to help and empower you, for example while explaining all about considerations and agreements, Hubbard was at the same time, using it to control you! He tricked you into accepting an while new large set of considerations and agreements about a great many things. If his aim was truly to "free you", he would have explained how NO set can ever be complete and not fundamentally arbitrary. But, Hubbard apparently wanted you saddled with HIS set of considerations and agreements. Just WHY that is involves another day.

Damn, you're good.

I love it when you get all Gadflyly. :thumbsup:
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

To Hubbard it has always been about agreement. Affinity and communication are used to gain agreement and bring about some desired "understanding".

Hubbard was a tricky bastard! :yes::grouch:
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

Hubbard was a tricky bastard!:yes:

Yeah, but he didn't intend the trickery and deception (just as didn't so many of his followers)! So, he/they couldn't have been scamming you! :duh:

It was some strange accidental, unintended, or weird unexpected ancillary by-product that manifested as trickery, manipulation and deception. But really, nobody anywhere EVER intended such things . . . . . :eyeroll:
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

Yeah, but he didn't intend the trickery and deception (just as didn't so many of his followers)! So, he/they couldn't have been scamming you! :duh:


OK then, knowing now that I didn't get scammed I feel so much better. :biggrin:
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
One can get his money back after consumption of services.

This refund policy makes Scientology quite unique. I don't know of any free market entity which lets you actually consume their goods and you are allowed to claim refund afterwards if you are not happy. You could even be happy and still claim your cash back.

While I am pretty sure you are writing this just to see how you can make people angry I will answer just in case someone else who really believes you can get your money back is reading this.

I once was talking to the Chaplain and treasury about a financial irregularity that was going on with my account. And without my even talking about getting a repayment of unused money the Chaplain told me that if I was planning to get my money back "Things would not go well for me" It was very creepy and threatening. He even did a demo with the pencils and things on his desk.

That was the day I decided that Scientology is a very dangerous group that needs to be destroyed. Before that i still had a "Live and Let Live" attitude about Scientology.

Thank you for re-vitalizing my purpose.
 

Gib

Crusader
Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

Yeah, but he didn't intend the trickery and deception (just as didn't so many of his followers)! So, he/they couldn't have been scamming you! :duh:

But, of course.

And,

that's what makes it really had to get.
 

Anonycat

Crusader
I watch this a few times a year, and this seems a good place to post it again. I just watched it again about an hour ago. I hope you like it.

[video=youtube;ciupsqkLLkQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciupsqkLLkQ[/video]
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

But, of course.

And,

that's what makes it really had to get.

At best, Hubbard believed in his stated mission to some degree, maybe at least for some while, but also, he very much knowingly incorporated great amounts of psychological manipulation into his subject and practices. Since he may have truly believed that Man could be saved by his methods, and that Man in his current state wasn't much more than a walking-talking reactive bundle of mental circuitry, he also may have felt entirely justified in all the extensive manipulation and control he built into his system.

You know the Scientology view. A wog or reactive bank NEVER wants to step onto the conveyor belt to Total Freedom. They provide endless reasons why NOT to do it. They provide endless litanies of STOPS and BARRIERS. The view is that you have to MAKE them do it, even when they don't want to, even when they are screaming and fighting, because in their current degraded states, they have NO IDEA what is actually best for them! Wogs and those with reactive minds, not to mentions SPs, DBs, and PTSes, cannot make sensible, sane or survival decisions. Or, so Hubbard says and claims. That view is constantly fed into the minds of Scientologists.

Hubbard was not oblivious to what he was doing and how he was doing it. He may have been a great many things, but he was not stupid.

In the worst case, he KNEW that it was entirely a scam, right from the start, and he NEVER believed for even a second the large plate of crap he was selling to everyone else.

It the end it doesn't matter which is true. The Church of Scientology FUNCTIONS as a SCAM, and operates using many methods of mental manipulation and behavioral control.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
If you got into Dianetics and Scientology and knew it wasn't going to produce the results claimed then it wasn't a scam and says much about your character but...

If you got into it with the idea that it would do what it said it would do, which is to truely help people and it doesn't, then it is a scam and your character is that of someone who wanted to help, honestly help, but operated on a lie.

If you got into it thinking it would help, then found out that it didn't but then stayed, then the idea you put forth is correct, but only in that case because if you were lied to and you operated on the lie without knowing it then it most certainly is a scam but knowing it was a lie then it wasn't.
I am not saying I was duped because it was a scam.

I am saying I did it because of my character and nature.

And to say it was because it is a scam is a cop-out, because that let's my character off the hook.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

johnAnchovie

Still raging
I noticed a continuing repetition of “Scientology is a scam” content.

At first glance Scientology being a scam seemed to be correct, to a certain degree. At the very least, it was not incorrect. Obviously there are many people who didn't get what was promised although they paid money, isn't it?

I for some time thought there would not be much wrong with such a statement until I had one of my 'wait a minute' moments. I thought it through once more and then I changed my mind. Scientology is NOT a scam for the following reason.

One can get his money back after consumption of services.

This refund policy makes Scientology quite unique. I don't know of any free market entity which lets you actually consume their goods and you are allowed to claim refund afterwards if you are not happy. You could even be happy and still claim your cash back.

To make my point and because I am hungry, I will now go downtown and order a double cheese burger with fries, eat it up, perhaps leave a bit to make it more convincing, then return to the counter, complain loudly about the crap and ask for my money back! After that I might become thirsty and decide to drop into the next pub to order a pint or two. Here again I'd expect to get my money back because it might seem the beer wasn't up to my standards. After that the reminder on my phone will ring remembering me that I drop into the shop where I bought my underwear recently. Why not see the manager and request that he'd exchange the one I am wearing right now for a fresh one?

Consumers paradise? Certainly it is! But oddly enough, that's exactly what the refund policy of Scientology would allow you to do.

There might a lot be wrong with Scientology and frankly speaking, I do have my personal issues with this organization and I am out of it since long time. However scam is not one of them. I never considered Scientology to be scamming me. It seemed to me that I always had the choice.

Any ideas why people think Scientology would be a scam?

The Cour de Cassation in Paris might help you shed some light on this conundrum old bean. I also sense that they may beg to disagree with any contradictory contention to the effect that it is anything but a scam.

'Vive la France' as we say here in old Ireland.
 
If you got into Dianetics and Scientology and knew it wasn't going to produce the results claimed then it wasn't a scam and says much about your character but...

If you got into it with the idea that it would do what it said it would do, which is to truely help people and it doesn't, then it is a scam and your character is that of someone who wanted to help, honestly help, but operated on a lie.

If you got into it thinking it would help, then found out that it didn't but then stayed, then the idea you put forth is correct, but only in that case because if you were lied to and you operated on the lie without knowing it then it most certainly is a scam but knowing it was a lie then it wasn't.

I didn't quite understand the third point.

I approached Scientology because I saw what it did for a friend of mine who had just done the communication course.

He was a bit of a strange guy, but when he came back from doing this course he was incredibly changed.

So I thought, well OK, I'll give it a try.

At the time I was working in a somewhat underground anti-war activity.

So I went into the comm course.

I was just coming off of acid, and there were no OT TRO in those days, so you cn imagine what that was like.

But the book for the course was "An evolution of a science."

I read the book in one day.

And that is what convinced me that this was the place to be. I should add that the Aims of the Church were on the course too.

Before I finished the course, the recruiter talked to me and wanted to hire me.

My reaction was "You want to hire me?" (I had hair down over my shoulders and was a complete hippie).

So I joined staff before I ever heard of auditing.

It was the impression that the book made on me that convinced me that this was the way to a better civilization and a civilization without war. (How sad is that!)

So I was on staff at FCDC.

Now I don't know if you realized how much fun the FCDC thread was on this board.

You should start from the beginning of the thread if you want some real entertainment.

But these were the guys I was on staff with.

It was fun, it was an adventure, and I found myself getting a better understanding of people and life.

Yes the conditions were pretty dreadful at first, but it was the biggest challenge of my lifetime up to that point.

When I saw all the craziness over the years I simply wrote it off as those people didn't quite get it.

And I did see incredible change in the people who were getting auditing and training.

Those things all further reinforced my views.

It wasn't until decades later I read Plato.

And just like the book I read on the Comm Course convinced me that Scientology was the right path for me, Plato convinced me that Scientology was completely wrong.

So just like that I dropped Scientology.

Therefore I didn't have the dilemma that other people had who had to deal with things they saw that tried their conscience.

For me it was simply---oops! This is wrong.

Now you have to remember that I was very naive on personal relationships, or rather, I was insensitive to other people's turmoil.

I didn't go through a crisis of conscience.

Even until recently I was insensitive to the personal turmoil others who are here have gone through.

I still sometimes say things on this board and in life without regard for another person's feelings.

I've mentioned it before, but my wife has said to me "Taj, you understand ideas, but you don't understand people."

I didn't understand what she meant (just kidding)

I have met a lot of homeless people recently, and I converse with them regularly.

You would be surprised, many are veterans, some were prominent professional people, some are petty criminals, one is a seventy-two year old lady.

Many, actually most, have an alcohol problem.

I don't want to reveal too much about who I am, but between my contact with them and the people on this baord I have come to appreciate the human soul and spirit in a way that I had not before.

I can feel things now. I really couldn't before.

Now that I am more aware of what is really important as far as people go, I look back and think of what I could have done for people all these years.

When I was in Scientology I followed my mind but not my heart.

Now I know that the heart is more important and the mind is just for helping the heart to feel.

And that really makes Plato make more sense.

So I look at my experience in Scientology as a deconstructing of myself.

The only thing Scientology did for me was to show me who I wasn't.

Now it is up to me to understand who I am.

That doesn't sound like a scam to me, it was just another journey through life.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
If you got into Dianetics and Scientology and knew it wasn't going to produce the results claimed then it wasn't a scam and says much about your character but...

If you got into it with the idea that it would do what it said it would do, which is to truely help people and it doesn't, then it is a scam and your character is that of someone who wanted to help, honestly help, but operated on a lie.

If you got into it thinking it would help, then found out that it didn't but then stayed, then the idea you put forth is correct, but only in that case because if you were lied to and you operated on the lie without knowing it then it most certainly is a scam but knowing it was a lie then it wasn't.
There is, of course, another option; that you got into scientology thinking it was going to help and found that it very often did. Not always, just often enough to keep you believing.
 

MostlyLurker

Patron Meritorious
[...] Scientology is NOT a scam for the following reason.

One can get his money back after consumption of services.

[...]
That's false.

I have not been able to get my used money nor my unused money on account.

Jason Beghe hasn't been able to get back his unused money on account

Scientology does not return money after consumption, with the exception of very few instances.
Scientology does not return money even if money is unused. What it does, if you have unused money on account, they try to buy your silence using your own money. That is: "We repay you your money if you sign here that Scientology is a religion, that you won't talk ill of Scientology and you have nothing else to claim." They buy your freedom to expose them for the scam they are.

If that was your only reason for Scientology not being a scam, you failed.
 
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