Scientology is NOT a scam

[Churchill]

I don't really understand what you're asking me here, Gadfly. My only experience with scientology is within the CofS.

I'll attempt to further clarify what I mean, though. I'm just stating a very simple thing; that there are people in the CofS who are good, well-intentioned people who sincerely believe that they are helping themselves and others through their adherence to the scientological Belief System. They have little or no understanding of the scamology aspects of that practice. When they catch glimpses of some scamology aspect they either pretend not to have noticed or begin the long journey out of scientology.

The idea (and, quite often, observation) that they can/have/will help themselves and others by applying Hubbard's Tech is one of the more powerful sticking points, IMO.

For a great many scientologists it IS that simple.

I started out a good, well-intentioned person.

I ended up having people selling their homes, and in some cases, losing their homes.

Sooner or later "well-intentioness" became "other-intentioness" and we yield.

The risk of losing our "freedom for all eternity" is just too much to bear.

New staff are the most genuinely idealistic dupes, and yes, they are sincere.

Start out as a dupe, and end as a duper.

And, by the way, it's a scam.

There are no OT's, remember?

 

[Gib]

Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

Most of the time it is mental and emotional coercion and intimidation.

I am not saying it is okay or right, but only that in fact, nobody is standing there with a gun physically forcing you to stay.

Many don't leave the Sea Org because they are stuck deeply in their own fundamentally self-created beliefs and ideas about Scientology

. The person can be controlled with threats of disconnection, because he truly fears that he or she will lose his or her chance at Total Freedom! Many believe it so hard, that Scientology is the ONLY endeavor on Earth that can provide one's "eternity", that these people will happily report to the RPF and even "the Hole" to have a chance at "rehabilitation" and "redemption".

Hubbard knew exactly what he was doing. He explains very well how any person is trapped by his or her own agreements, postulates and considerations. And then while telling you that, while teaching you all about that, he at the same time foisted upon you an immense system of agreements, postulates and considerations rooted in the Scientology paradigm! He told you how one can be trapped by ones OWN IDEAS & BELIEFS, and Scientology even provided a way to ERASE various past agreements, postulates and considerations (through auditing). But then, he saddled each follower with an intricate and very involved system of NEW agreements, postulates and considerations.

The largest trap and coercion part of Scientology involves the person's OWN belief system. That is not said to minimize this factor in any way. It is formidable.

For example, when my daughter was trying to route out of the Sea Org at a tender age of 18, which she had been brought up in since birth, she was told over and over these things:

1. The wog world is bad, suppressive, scary and dangerous.

2. Only DBs route out of the Sea Org.

3. They constantly evaluated that she must be out-ethics, PTS or an SP to want to leave.

4. They pushed various buttons such as, "how can let us and LRH down"?

See, if she had no agreement with all of these ideas, she could have waked right out the door without a second thought. But, she had been deeply infected with these ideas her entire life! It can be so tough for the children who were brought up in the Sea Org.

My point is that the mental and emotional threats and coercion ONLY works when you AGREE with the ideas. In a very real sense, one makes his or her OWN mental prison by adopting various ideas, notions and beliefs. Also though, one can adopt uplifting and positive ideas and values, which can have a "freeing" effect.

Granted, over the years threats of physical coercion and duress have appeared more. These are not the norm, not when compared to the constant and excessive mental and emotional coercion, but the fact that all the Sea Org facilities have fences and gates to keep members INSIDE speaks volumes.

Gadfly,

"self-created beliefs and ideas about scientology"

is not true,

as you know

Hubbard created those beliefs and ideas.

It's in his affirmations.

"All men will gravel to me" or whatever he said as a Auto Suggestion.

 

[Gadfly]

Sure, there is no shortage of weird notions. They all hinge on the Help button. That's why it's one of the most basic things to be gotten in. The 2 most VITAL "buttons" in scientology indoctrination are Help and Control. Everything else stems from that.

Yes, no doubt. Those are the BASIS of Scientology behavioral manipulation. And later come "bringing to understanding the people of Earth".

Was this help, control and understanding stuff part of the Dissem Drill? I can't remember these days, as it has been SO LONG AGO.

 

[Panda Termint]

I started out a good, well-intentioned person.

I ended up having people selling their homes, and in some cases, losing their homes.

Sooner or later "well-intentioness" became "other-intentioness" and we yield.

The risk of losing our "freedom for all eternity" is just too much to bear.

New staff are the most genuinely idealistic dupes, and yes, they are sincere.

Start out as a dupe, and end as a duper.

And, by the way, it's a scam.

There are no OT's, remember?

Serious Question: At the time you were doing that, were you knowingly scamming them?

 

[Churchill]

Serious Question: At the time you were doing that, were you knowingly scamming them?

The true believer is sincere.

 

[Panda Termint]

Yes, no doubt. Those are the BASIS of Scientology behavioral manipulation. And later come "bringing to understanding the people of Earth".

Was this help, control and understanding stuff part of the Dissem Drill? I can't remember these days, as it has been SO LONG AGO.

The 2 buttons must be "gotten in" before a person is considered to be onboard as a scientologist. The indoctrination is all-pervasive but there are distinct points where they must be confirmed as being in. There was/is a program in the Sea Org Member line-up where these 2 buttons are checked and, if found wanting, handled with auditing/education to full understanding/agreement ie. Help is possible on all flows, Control is desirable on all flows. It's possibly the most important aspect in making a homo sap into a scientologist.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

The things I did, I DID. There are both mitigating and aggravating circumstances attached to these actions.

I may as well have taken a personal oath to Hubbard, and suppose, as a SO member, I did.

I re-ordered my life's priorities to the cult's. I learned how to factor out compassion, mercy, charity, as undesirable traits.

One never wanted to reward a downstat, did one?

TAJ, you are a free to disagree with me, and it's a wonderful thing, because, remember, in the cult we could only disagree to the point of its becoming natter.

In the background loomed the ethics officer, or B-1.

Was the cult ever wrong about anything? Publicly? Technical errors were repaired at the PC's expense, weren't they?

Hubbard's scam was his construct of the infallibility of the subject, and by extension, the organization.

I was NOT merely following orders.

Google "Adolf Eichmann defense" and see that you are incorrect on that point.

I cannot speak to what you did in Scn being all of your own volition. I take you at your word.

All of us are somewhere on the spectrum of sorting it all out, and I believe there's massive evidence of mind control in Scientology.

I'm just glad that you, Gadfly, and so many others have recovered and are speaking out.

Thanks for this post.

I will say that this post especially and Gadfly's persistence and other posts have shifted my position to this:

What I am saying only applies to me.

If you guys see it and understand it as a scam then you are probably right.

I am not saying here that "What is true for you is true for you," and I'm certainly not saying that "what is true for me isn't true."

What I am saying is that my view is more of a personal view based on my experiences.

So I will say that my argument for Scientology not being a scam is based on my experience and my retrospective view of my state of mind at different points in my time in Scientology.

I was also thinking---it is a good thing that Emma doesn't charge me and Gadfly by the word!

Thanks, guys!

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Gadfly]

Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

Gadfly,

"self-created beliefs and ideas about scientology"

is not true,

as you know

Hubbard created those beliefs and ideas.

It's in his affirmations.

"All men will gravel to me" or whatever he said as a Auto Suggestion.

What I mean is that YOU are the SOLE GUARDIAN who stands at the gates of your own mind.

In the end, it is you, and only you who accept, adopt, and agree with ANYTHING.

Yes, Hubbard did create those ideas. But, it was YOU who accepted them. You did that! It was not done "to you", though it may appear to be.

Many people, such as my brother, walked in, got a pinch test, did some intro stuff, and then turned around and walked out, never to return. He simply never accepted or adopted the ideas.

I do get what TAJ means when he says that YOU (via your character) set yourself up for it all. In the end, only you agree or not. Nobody can MAKE you agree, not short of severe sleep deprivation and PDH methods. Though granted, Hubbard wired together a VERY intricate and smooth machine for getting some to accept and adopt his ideas. And yes, Hubbard's methods DO involve advanced methods of mind control and behavioral manipulation. But they do NOT work on everybody. I think TAJ's point is that in the end, it is YOU (and your character) who are the sole factor in determining WHO actually gets suckered.

But this is not a blame sort of thing. As I see it, the universe brings to you a perfect mirror representation of WHO you are at any moment. For who we each were at the time, Scientology found us - we gravitated to it. We found each other. Luckily we each grow and change, and as our characters change, so does the universe and the unique situations we attract. That is my current opinion.

 

[Anonycat]

I started out a good, well-intentioned person.

I ended up having people selling their homes, and in some cases, losing their homes.

Sooner or later "well-intentioness" became "other-intentioness" and we yield.

The risk of losing our "freedom for all eternity" is just too much to bear.

New staff are the most genuinely idealistic dupes, and yes, they are sincere.

Start out as a dupe, and end as a duper.

And, by the way, it's a scam.

There are no OT's, remember?

I understand that it's hard to talk about auditing benefits when people are killed, financially destroyed, families broken, or being used as subjects in harmful and sometimes deadly medical quackery. Most countries won't have them. They are falling apart, and their horrible crimes so numerous, they truly deserve to be exterminated. It's hard to even keep track of the ass-kicking they are getting on so many levels right now. Hubbard destroyed his own family in a disgusting and gruesome way. I have talked to family survivors face to face, and there is a huge book to be written, although the fear of speaking will follow them to their grave. Yet, some people like the theories, misnamed technology. I have to admit, I love Panda, and if he says he got some good, I am fine with embracing that. And I can refrain from throwing that on the good/bad scales of balance. I'm happy he wasn't thrashed to death like others were. It's alright with me if something worked for someone. I have no issue with separating his satisfaction with the rest. I love the Panda, but hate the cult.

 

[Gib]

Sure, there is no shortage of weird notions. They all hinge on the Help button. That's why it's one of the most basic things to be gotten in. The 2 most VITAL "buttons" in scientology indoctrination are Help and Control. Everything else stems from that.

yep, and the "help" button is Grade 1, problems.

The story is

from hubbard,

unless one has their "help" button handled at Grade 1,

they are insane.

Do you remember this?

And I believe he said they at risk or something like that.

 

[Panda Termint]

The true believer is sincere.

So, not knowingly scamming them, then? Thanks for answering.

 

[Gadfly]

Serious Question: At the time you were doing that, were you knowingly scamming them?

Of course he wasn't knowingly scamming them.

But the trickery and deception perpetrated itself regardless. It was simply unintentional, and even masked by a shroud of "good intentions and aims to help".

Scientology involves an intricate charade where the scammers have no idea that they are actually part of a large organized scam. There need not even be an active knowing scammer anywhere in sight. The PATTERN as defined and delineated in the OEC volumes, Management Series, LRH EDs, and so forth establishes the FUNCTIONS from which all else flows (as long as the total subject remains largely unaltered, duplicated and applied - thus the essential need for the key points of KSW).

 

[Gadfly]

The 2 buttons must be "gotten in" before a person is considered to be onboard as a scientologist. The indoctrination is all-pervasive but there are distinct points where they must be confirmed as being in. There was/is a program in the Sea Org Member line-up where these 2 buttons are checked and, if found wanting, handled with auditing/education to full understanding/agreement ie. Help is possible on all flows, Control is desirable on all flows. It's possibly the most important aspect in making a homo sap into a scientologist.

Hubbard chose his buttons very well, indeed!

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

What I mean is that YOU are the SOLE GUARDIAN who stands at the gates of your own mind.

In the end, it is you, and only you who accept, adopt, and agree with ANYTHING.

Yes, Hubbard did create those ideas. But, it was YOU who accepted them. You did that! It was not done "to you", though it may appear to be.

Many people, such as my brother, walked in, got a pinch test, did some intro stuff, and then turned around and walked out, never to return. He simply never accepted or adopted the ideas.

I do get what TAJ means when he says that YOU (via your character) set yourself up for it all. In the end, only you agree or not. Nobody can MAKE you agree, not short of severe sleep deprivation and PDH methods. Though granted, Hubbard wired together a VERY intricate and smooth machine for getting some to accept and adopt his ideas. And yes, Hubbard's methods DO involve advanced methods of mind control and behavioral manipulation. But they do NOT work on everybody. I think TAJ's point is that in the end, it is YOU (and your character) who are the sole factor in determining WHO actually gets suckered.

But this is not a blame sort of thing. As I see it, the universe brings to you a perfect mirror representation of WHO you are at any moment. For who we each were at the time, Scientology found us - we gravitated to it. We found each other. Luckily grow and change, and as our characters change, so does the universe and situations we attract. That is my current opinion.

It makes me wonder what is next for each one of us.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Panda Termint]

I understand that it's hard to talk about auditing benefits when people are killed, financially destroyed, families broken, or being used as subjects in harmful and sometimes deadly medical quackery. Most countries won't have them. They are falling apart, and their horrible crimes so numerous, they truly deserve to be exterminated. It's hard to even keep track of the ass-kicking they are getting on so many levels right now. Hubbard destroyed his own family in a disgusting and gruesome way. I have talked to family survivors face to face, and there is a huge book to be written, although the fear of speaking will follow them to their grave. Yet, some people like the theories, misnamed technology. I have to admit, I love Panda, and if he says he got some good, I am fine with embracing that. And I can refrain from throwing that on the good/bad scales of balance. I'm happy he wasn't thrashed to death like others were. It's alright with me if something worked for someone. I have no issue with separating his satisfaction with the rest. I love the Panda, but hate the cult.

Thanks, mate. I'm not making a case for scientology. You know how I feel about that. I'm just making a case for better understanding of the scientological mindset. I do that quite often. Better understood is better, in my opinion.

 

[Osiris]

Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

My point is that the mental and emotional threats and coercion ONLY works when you AGREE with the ideas. In a very real sense, one makes his or her OWN mental prison by adopting various ideas, notions and beliefs. Also though, one can adopt uplifting and positive ideas and values, which can have a "freeing" effect.

I call this the hypnotizing effect, The point at which you agree to give away your free will, & then start to agree to everything they want you to do ......

(even though in the back of your mind you believe it to be wrong or maybe wrong a that stage)

The threats & punishments are then reinforcements that you are expected to continue to do exactly what they want you to do ...or else .... (the pretense is then that it is less painful to stay in, & keep obeying .......)

Been there done that ....... I really wanted to leave for a while ...... but could not find the exits !!!! .....(so to speak) ...... if you didn't turn up ...they would route you back into the org ..& or bombard you with "call ins" or junk mail etc....(basically harassment)

It has got to be one of the Biggest & Best Elaborately Planned SCAMS in history ....... who else has spent 20 or 30 years writing policies & Tech documents to make their SCAM appear real ... & keep it going

 

[Panda Termint]

Re: Our actions and reactions in the cult were of our own volition- but maybe not...

It makes me wonder what is next for each one of us.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Pandology?

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Just for the record--we are all talking about The Church of Scientology, right?

(I kid the scammed)

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Type4_PTS]

I don't really understand what you're asking me here, Gadfly. My only experience with scientology is within the CofS.

I'll attempt to further clarify what I mean, though. I'm just stating a very simple thing; that there are people in the CofS who are good, well-intentioned people who sincerely believe that they are helping themselves and others through their adherence to the scientological Belief System. They have little or no understanding of the scamology aspects of that practice. When they catch glimpses of some scamology aspect they either pretend not to have noticed or begin the long journey out of scientology.

The idea (and, quite often, observation) that they can/have/will help themselves and others by applying Hubbard's Tech is one of the more powerful sticking points, IMO.

For a great many scientologists it IS that simple.

This part I bolded I have no doubt is true. It was true for ME when I was in. I was well-intentioned and was there as you say to help myself and others, not to scam people.

But knowing what I know now I see clearly that it IS a scam.

And when I call it a scam it is not mean't to impugn the character of those involved. I believe that most people in Scientology are in it as a way to help others and believe in what they're doing, and believe that our future on this planet DOES really depend upon what they do within Scientology.

Despite their good intentions though they are marketing services which do not deliver as promised. Not even close.

So from the consumers point of view - it is a scam. They're being sold the states of Clear and OT, but in the way they're described by Hubbard and marketed to Scientologists it's a huge deception. It's a bait and switch. They're being sold 2014 Jaguar XKR-S models fully loaded, but what's being delivered are 1995 Kia's with 100,000 miles on them and out of warranty.

 

[Gadfly]

This part I bolded I have no doubt is true. It was true for ME when I was in. I was well-intentioned and was there as you say to help myself and others, not to scam people.

But knowing what I know now I see clearly that it IS a scam.

And when I call it a scam it is not mean't to impugn the character of those involved. I believe that most people in Scientology are in it as a way to help others and believe in what they're doing, and believe that our future on this planet DOES really depend upon what they do within Scientology.

Despite their good intentions though they are marketing services which do not deliver as promised. Not even close.

So from the consumers point of view - it is a scam. They're being sold the states of Clear and OT, but in the way they're described by Hubbard and marketed to Scientologists it's a huge deception. It's a bait and switch.

There is a reason why this quote has appeared in relation to the various shenanigans of Mankind:

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Clay Demo that line.

Essay: What THAT concept has to do with Scientology.

Drill: Twin up with another student and explain to your twin TEN examples of situations where harmful acts where justified and even forwarded in the name of "helping others". End off explaining how Scientology has incorporated THAT mechanism into its subject materials and behaviors.

Study tech can actually be somewhat useful if you use it with VALID ideas.