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Scientology is Obsolete

lexmark

Patron with Honors
Today there are many different movements about spirituality but most importantly Science has entered the field. In 1950 there was virtually nothing in the western world that taught anything about the subject, it was mostly in eastern philosophies. Although there were probably others but LRH was the first to broadly enter this field and run courses and build an international organization. That was more than half a century ago and a lot has happened since.

I think if we wish to handle this disconnection insanity in Scientology they have got to be informed that if they wish to continue in the field of spirituality they must, must, reform and change or die. The western world will not much longer tolerate this nonsense.

Having said that lets look at what science says about this subject of spirituality: The following is from the works of Dr. Amit Goswami, Professor of physics at Oregon University

There was a revolution in physics at the beginning of the last century, consisting of the discovery of quantum physics. The message of quantum physics is this: the world is not made of matter neither is it determined entirely by material causation that we sometimes call upward causation because it rises upward from the building blocks of matter–the elementary particles . There is a source of downward causation in the world. You can call this source consciousness if you like and think of it as the ground of all being.

Quantum physics in the form of its famous observer effect (how an observation transforms quantum possibilities into actual experiences in the observer’s consciousness) is forcing us into a paradigm shift from the primacy-of-matter to a new paradigm: the Primacy Of Consciousness (read my book The Self-Aware Universe for details). Quantum Activism is the idea of transforming ourselves and our societies in accordance with the transforming messages of quantum physics and the new paradigm.
So what are these transforming messages of quantum physics? First, consciousness is the ground of all being, and all objects of our experiences (of sensing, thinking, feeling, and intuition) are quantum possibilities for consciousness to choose from.
Second, if we choose what is known, what is conditioned in us from prior experiences, we are choosing from our ego-consciousness. But if we choose what is unknown, what is unmanifest in our prior experiences, we are choosing from what traditions call God-consciousness (in scientific language we call it quantum consciousness). Choosing from God-consciousness requires quantum leaps (movement from point A to point B without going through intermediate steps), nonlocality (signalless communication), and tangled hierarchy (causal relationships of circularity) (read my recent book God is not Dead).
God is not dead! The existence of God has been verified by much scientific evidence.
In the third message of quantum physics, the evolution of consciousness (read my most recent book Creative Evolution) is taking us toward a greater and greater capacity for processing the meaning of our lives and the world around us. The immediate future of evolution is promising to take us from our current preoccupation with the rational mind to an intuitive mind that values the archetypes; such as good, beauty, truth, justice, and love. And gives us the ability to process the meaning of our lives through these archetypes.

So where does the above leave the policy of disconnection. "Miscaviage the above is a wakup call"

Travers Harris:party:
 

GreyWolf

Gold Meritorious Patron
Good post. I always believed that quantum physics was a way that scientisits were looking for the causal rather than the reactive origens of the universes.
 
Just sit down and relax.............
Loosen any tight clothing....there.....just let your body completely relax...just thinking now of nothing in particluar...perhaps a pleasant scene....your breathing is getting slower and heavier now...feeling more and more...relaxed and I am going to say two words which will put you into a very deep hypnosis which will make you believe all of my mumbo jumbo theories about everything....here are the two words now....
Quantum Physics.......there...you are under my spell....and your own...............and your little trolly legs are very very relaxed now....and feeling sooooo comfortable
 

Arthur Dent

Silver Meritorious Patron
Having said that lets look at what science says about this subject of spirituality: The following is from the works of Dr. Amit Goswami, Professor of physics at Oregon University

....... (read my book The Self-Aware Universe for details).
....(read my recent book God is not Dead).

....(read my most recent book Creative Evolution)

So where does the above leave the policy of disconnection. "Miscaviage the above is a wakup call"

Travers Harris:party:

Not sure in what person you are writing... are you not he?
I think quantum physics is fascinating but can it be broadly applied in practicality other than some folks reading and understanding a bit of it? This is where Hubbard's bit of genius kicked it. He was able to capture the masses....well a few of us anyway.

In any case, yes, most definitely, DM is above a wake up call! And scn is obsolete through the use of it's own policies and self-breeding, unchangeable attitudes. It is severely limited by this. The only thing that can over-ride it's internal destruction is it's continued external force and control and perpetuating the con.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Quantum Physics, while interesting, has exactly nothing to do with spirituality, other than having some interesting parallels to the way we think about it.

The Observer Effect is overblown. It's about the effect of measurement, and has nothing to do with causation.

Please read the following for disambiguation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

Many New-Age fuzzy thinkers try to associate their vague and non-predictive "sciency" sounding concepts with this, because they like to think it gives them an air of legitimacy, when really, they have misunderstood the ideas.

Scientology is obsolete, but not because of quantum mechanics. It's obsolete because it started out ripping of half-century old ideas and mixing them around with general semantics and hypnotism, and then never scientifically tested them.
 

fortymarriedandbalding

Patron with Honors
Quantum Physics, while interesting, has exactly nothing to do with spirituality, other than having some interesting parallels to the way we think about it.

The Observer Effect is overblown. It's about the effect of measurement, and has nothing to do with causation.

Please read the following for disambiguation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

Many New-Age fuzzy thinkers try to associate their vague and non-predictive "sciency" sounding concepts with this, because they like to think it gives them an air of legitimacy, when really, they have misunderstood the ideas.

Scientology is obsolete, but not because of quantum mechanics. It's obsolete because it started out ripping of half-century old ideas and mixing them around with general semantics and hypnotism, and then never scientifically tested them.


Thank you.

While quite spiritual myself, I find this constant reference to Quantum Theory as proof of God, alternate healing, etc to be quite tiring.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Thank you.

While quite spiritual myself, I find this constant reference to Quantum Theory as proof of God, alternate healing, etc to be quite tiring.

Till the late 60s it was Special and then General Relativity that served as the rationale for numerous schizoid delusional systems. Now it's Quantum Physics :)

Common to both is that they seem to imply an 'anything can happen' viewpoint that can buttress, well, literally *anything* and they're complicated enough that for someone unwilling or unable to get to the *meat* of the subject, they can be very impressive, which allows the unscrupulous and even malicious to exploit 'science' as support for their own 'theories'.

Still, as models of the 'universe' and cosmology, they're appealing and less directly 'opposed' to a spiritual view of 'reality' than, say, 19th Century Determinism.

Zinj
 
Quantum Physics, while interesting, has exactly nothing to do with spirituality, other than having some interesting parallels to the way we think about it.

The Observer Effect is overblown. It's about the effect of measurement, and has nothing to do with causation.

Please read the following for disambiguation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

Many New-Age fuzzy thinkers try to associate their vague and non-predictive "sciency" sounding concepts with this, because they like to think it gives them an air of legitimacy, when really, they have misunderstood the ideas.

Scientology is obsolete, but not because of quantum mechanics. It's obsolete because it started out ripping of half-century old ideas and mixing them around with general semantics and hypnotism, and then never scientifically tested them.

Good post.

But the ambiguity in science is in the natue of science and scientific theories.

All scientific theories get accepted because experiments or mathematics affirm the consequence.

But affirming the consequence, in itself, is a logical fallacy.

So scientific knowledge is not universal, necessary and timeless, but rather particular, contingent, and probable.

Scientific knowledge is simply interpretations of experience.

After all, cause and effect are metaphysical concepts.

There is nothing wrong with this at all, as long as scientist don't claim their knowledge is truth with a capital T.

Unfortunately, some New Age thinkers with superficial understanding of science exploit this to invalidate science and give credence to their ideas.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Scientology is a frozen snapshot of the 50's. It has little to offer anyone in the 21st century. The natural passage of time weakens it with every tick of the clock.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Quantum Physics, while interesting, has exactly nothing to do with spirituality, other than having some interesting parallels to the way we think about it.

The Observer Effect is overblown. It's about the effect of measurement, and has nothing to do with causation.

Please read the following for disambiguation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

Many New-Age fuzzy thinkers try to associate their vague and non-predictive "sciency" sounding concepts with this, because they like to think it gives them an air of legitimacy, when really, they have misunderstood the ideas.

Scientology is obsolete, but not because of quantum mechanics. It's obsolete because it started out ripping of half-century old ideas and mixing them around with general semantics and hypnotism, and then never scientifically tested them.

As a professional quantum physicist I endorse the above post by uniquemand. There is nothing particularly spiritual about quantum mechanics. It is just strange from any human point of view, including any spiritual perspective I've ever heard of. In particular it provides no evidence of the existence of God or the soul. It provides no special role for consciousness; quantum measurement can be performed by a box that goes 'click'.

It is perhaps more compatible with some spiritual views than 19th century mechanics was, simply because it is strange. If single electrons can behave so strangely, then perhaps the universe has room for many strange things.

It is not incompatible with metaphysical beliefs, either.

I definitely agree with Smilla, that Scientology is aging fast and badly. Its way of sounding scientific is to try to sound like the popular image of science in the 1950s.

Xenu flew a DC8. He always had the problem that he was ridiculous. Now he has the added problem that he never saw an iPhone. This is only going to get worse, as the great secrets of Scientology revelation look more and more ... quaint.
 
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nexus100

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think to see how this place really works requires understanding one is creating it. The function of quantum mechanics fits nicely into that idea, but unless you see them little babies as part of the operation they're simply more grains of sand.

However looking larger instead of smaller, looking to a greater reality, sooner or later spells Bingo and the plot unfolds. It just happens as one's path dictates. My opinion.
 

Mystic

Crusader
Today there are many different movements about spirituality but most importantly Science has entered the field. In 1950 there was virtually nothing in the western world that taught anything about the subject, it was mostly in eastern philosophies. Although there were probably others but LRH was the first to broadly enter this field and run courses and build an international organization. That was more than half a century ago and a lot has happened since.

<snip>

Your research is quite incomplete as it assumes the Redman and all he/she knew of Spirit doesn't even exist; not just in the northern part, but central and south as well.

And then there was all that Madam Blavatsky and her colleagues were doing.

And Hubbard-thing wasn't even involved in Spirit, but in mind and mind influence, psychic powers and all that mind spam.

Back to circle zero.
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
Scientology is a frozen snapshot of the 50's. It has little to offer anyone in the 21st century. The natural passage of time weakens it with every tick of the clock.
Yep. I find it funny that Hubbard said everything looked like 50's America, even on other planets millions of years ago.

So let's see, our late 20th century aerodynamic 'bubble cars' were never discovered on Marcab even though they had spaceships?!?!?

And the password protected bodies when people were killed in war - there was no password reset function????

To name but a few.

Student of Trinity - regarding observer effect: What would you regard as an observer? I find it unusual that people seem to marry up 'the observer' with the person manipulating the apparatus in the experiment, rather than some facet of the apparatus itself.
 

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
Yep. I find it funny that Hubbard said everything looked like 50's America, even on other planets millions of years ago.

So let's see, our late 20th century aerodynamic 'bubble cars' were never discovered on Marcab even though they had spaceships?!?!?

And the password protected bodies when people were killed in war - there was no password reset function????

To name but a few.

Student of Trinity - regarding observer effect: What would you regard as an observer? I find it unusual that people seem to marry up 'the observer' with the person manipulating the apparatus in the experiment, rather than some facet of the apparatus itself.

I don't know much about quantum physics, and your question wasn't directed at me, but I'll put out my point of view out there for criticism.

What happens in quantum physics, as I understand it, is pretty much just this: the observation of a certain process alters the outcome of that process just by observing it.

If you're standing on top of a mountain, observing the traffic down in the valley, the fact that you're standing there watching, doesn't have any impact on the traffic.

So an observer is basically someone who watches a process happen, but doesn't influence the process. He is not part of the system or process he observes. In quantum physics, a non-influential position to observe a process from, has yet to be found.

Yeah, I guess that's basically it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.:)
 

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
I don't know much about quantum physics, and your question wasn't directed at me, but I'll put out my point of view out there for criticism.

What happens in quantum physics, as I understand it, is pretty much just this: the observation of a certain process alters the outcome of that process just by observing it.

If you're standing on top of a mountain, observing the traffic down in the valley, the fact that you're standing there watching, doesn't have any impact on the traffic.

So an observer is basically someone who watches a process happen, but doesn't influence the process. He is not part of the system or process he observes. In quantum physics, a non-influential position to observe a process from, has yet to be found.

Yeah, I guess that's basically it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.:)
How delicious. So the real question isn't what is an observer, but why is it that there isn't anything, or anywhere (and possibly anywhen) that is not considered an observer. Thank you.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
The point of the observer effect is that any method of determining what is happening INTERACTS with what it is observing, and thereby changes it.

Please read David Deutsche's "The Fabric of Reality". This discussion is a bunch of hacks (including me) trying to restate something that is well understood and stated by a guy who's been KNIGHTED for God's Bleating Sake, for his contributions to making this subject understandable to the laymen.
 
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