Scientology leader in court - Vicki Dunstan - report by Bryan Seymour

[scooter]

It is hyperbole if you're suggesting that these things may occur in this particular case. Are you?

It's not a harassment suit nor is it frivolous, it's a desperate and very costly attempt at "controlling the environment".

I understand that reprehensible things have occurred in other court cases, I just think that you're sensationalising in this instance.

Besides which, Wyong Shire Council doesn't have a pet.

In any event, we'll see what we see soon enough.

I agree - this thread gives the history of this saga.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?35307-NARCONON-ABLE-plans-another-Australian-Drug-Centre

Cult tried to covertly sneak a NarCONon into Yarramalong and got busted. I found out about it via the locals at
Warburton (dealing with their own NarCONon nightmare) and offered help. Locals at both places enlisted help from a lot of sources and the fun began.

In the Yarramalong case, the cult has simply appealed the Wyong Council's decision to say no to their DA. Standard procedure, and often the "developer" wins. As one of the Council's own Legal staff explained to me, councils in Oz often say "no" to something based on politics generated by local anger rather than by violations of planning law by the developer.

in this case however, BOTH have occurred. Cult have done a totally half-arsed job and Council's barrister has had the enviable job of shooting fish in a barrel when it comes to pointing out all the un-dotted Is and un-crossed Ts. Stupid cult is stupid. Cult's barrister has been up against this from the beginning, even tho' cult really (to my understanding of this case, and IANAL) should have been able to LEGALLY overcome all the objections lodged by simply preparing a decent DA proposal in the first place.

It also would have helped if they'd engaged the locals initially instead of being careless with the truth from Day #1. But then, it wouldn't BE $cientology as we know it, now would it?

And we wouldn't have the lulz of OSA caught far away from their usual hidey-holes scurrying like fleeing rats through the hostile streets of Sydney. Pursued by Bryan "Pit Bull" Seymour.

Poor dears. I have absolutely no sympathy for them whatsoever.

To be continued - I'll get a wrap-up of the hearing from a local in attendance today and share with you all and I think Bryan may just pop over from his office for a peek too

Let the lulz continue !!!

I'm going to wake the sleeping kiddies and do some holiday stuff with them - despite what cult's barrister tried to insinuate during my testimony in this case, I DO have a life outside of anti-cult activism.

His clientele do not.

 

[Free Being Me]

It is hyperbole if you're [HIGHLIGHT]suggesting[/HIGHLIGHT] that these things may occur in this particular case. Are you?

It's not a harassment suit nor is it frivolous, it's a desperate and very costly attempt at "controlling the environment".

I understand that reprehensible things have occurred in other court cases, I just think that you're sensationalising in this instance.

Besides which, Wyong Shire Council doesn't have a pet.

In any event, we'll see what we see soon enough.

You're making assumptions about things I haven't said. I've been pointing out $cientology has a bag of dirty tricks (like poisoning someone's dog and Elcon's lawsuit policy) and for some reason, only known to yourself, you're trying to invent a fault in a manner that's fallaciously argumentative and starting to derail the thread. I never specifically said those examples are tactics the cult will definitely use during this case.

How about getting back to the o.p. now.

 

[Panda Termint]

...

How about getting back to o.p. now.

Sure, that's exactly what I was trying to get you to do.

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

This is what I get for trying to be too succinct. Right, there is absolutely nothing new about the attitude. LRH died in 86 before the advent of the internet and the ubiquitous use of devices that could capture and instantly distribute an image world wide which could then be archived, keyword searched and reviewed forever.

LRH was very particular about Scientology's public image and was willing to do his dirty work covertly or with plausible deniability but in his time the negative repercussions from an errant image could still be constrained within acceptable tolerances. He did not live long enough to write the "No Middle Finger Salute" policy and he was survived by a vulgar potty mouth that didn't care.

So now we have the spectacle of high ranking church officials and high profile Scientology celebs flipping off the world with no way to insulate the church and Scientology from the optics. This just doesn't happen unless it is sanctioned or encouraged at the highest level - therefore, it must be a de facto policy that it is permitted.

Stop being succinct. Oh wait.

 

[JustSheila]

Bryan has shared a video of him chasing Nigel. However it's on Facebook, here's the link:

7 News Sydney

Senior Scientologist Nigel Mannock gave 7 News reporter Bryan Seymour the slip this morning… but this afternoon, Bryan caught up with him in the streets of Sydney.


STORY: http://yhoo.it/1iy1EWX

VIDEO (Facebook) https://www.facebook.com/7newssydney...7/?pnref=story

Bryan is so professional in his questioning, but watch Nigel's face slowly brighten, and every time Bryan hits a nerve, Nigel nervously adjusts his pack on his arm. lol lol lol!

Nigel is SOOO uncomfortable. Too funny! He doesn't even have a comment about Narconon when Bryan asks this as an open question. Nigel is so spaced out, trying so hard to ignore Bryan, he missed his chance for a plug or comment altogether.

Way to go, Bryan Seymour!

 

[Gib]

It is hyperbole if you're suggesting that these things may occur in this particular case. Are you?

It's not a harassment suit nor is it frivolous, it's a desperate and very costly attempt at "controlling the environment".

I understand that reprehensible things have occurred in other court cases, I just think that you're sensationalising in this instance.

Besides which, Wyong Shire Council doesn't have a pet.

In any event, we'll see what we see soon enough.

I'd agree. Isn't this similar to how the COS got in Clearwater.

PR Area Control is the attempt, or Rhetoric control-------who has the best argument or the 3 means of persuasion.

 

[tetloj]

I agree - this thread gives the history of this saga.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?35307-NARCONON-ABLE-plans-another-Australian-Drug-Centre

Thanks for the context Scooter...stupid cult is stupid

 

[Free Being Me]

Sure, that's exactly what I was trying to get you to do.

Orly? Pointless handling effort noted

 

[Free Being Me]

I agree - this thread gives the history of this saga.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?35307-NARCONON-ABLE-plans-another-Australian-Drug-Centre

Cult tried to covertly sneak a NarCONon into Yarramalong and got busted. I found out about it via the locals at
Warburton (dealing with their own NarCONon nightmare) and offered help. Locals at both places enlisted help from a lot of sources and the fun began.

In the Yarramalong case, the cult has simply appealed the Wyong Council's decision to say no to their DA. Standard procedure, and often the "developer" wins. As one of the Council's own Legal staff explained to me, councils in Oz often say "no" to something based on politics generated by local anger rather than by violations of planning law by the developer.

in this case however, BOTH have occurred. Cult have done a totally half-arsed job and Council's barrister has had the enviable job of shooting fish in a barrel when it comes to pointing out all the un-dotted Is and un-crossed Ts. Stupid cult is stupid. Cult's barrister has been up against this from the beginning, even tho' cult really (to my understanding of this case, and IANAL) should have been able to LEGALLY overcome all the objections lodged by simply preparing a decent DA proposal in the first place.

It also would have helped if they'd engaged the locals initially instead of being careless with the truth from Day #1. But then, it wouldn't BE $cientology as we know it, now would it?

And we wouldn't have the lulz of OSA caught far away from their usual hidey-holes scurrying like fleeing rats through the hostile streets of Sydney. Pursued by Bryan "Pit Bull" Seymour.

Poor dears. I have absolutely no sympathy for them whatsoever.

To be continued - I'll get a wrap-up of the hearing from a local in attendance today and share with you all and I think Bryan may just pop over from his office for a peek too

Let the lulz continue !!!

I'm going to wake the sleeping kiddies and do some holiday stuff with them - despite what cult's barrister tried to insinuate during my testimony in this case, I DO have a life outside of anti-cult activism.

His clientele do not.

 

[AnonyMary]

Thank you for your reports, Scooter. Your time and efforts to help the citizens of Yarramalong, to assist Bryan Seymour in his reporting and council at the court house as needed are really much appreciated

I wish there were more volunteers like you to help so we Narconon critics would not have to work so hard, often juggling things to get the news and information out and be accessible to assist the citizens.

 

[scooter]

This is probably more relevant to this thread so I'm cut-pasting it from the other thread where OBB put this up and I replied.

Quote Originally Posted by TheOriginalBigBlue View Post

In the link from your post, I thought this was a key point. It seems to me that the greater burden is upon the church to stretch the allowed usage to permit a drug rehab facility. If it is true that the zoning laws do not include a definition for a rehab center, then this would be a very good time to address that deficiency. I'd also add that it would be a good time for all of Australia to update their local zoning laws for this potentiality:

'Under the Wyong LEP 1991 which was current at the time, and therefore the relevant Instrument, the proposed use can be defined as a "community facility" owing to the type of service being offered, and the mode by which that service is delivered. There is no specific definition for a drug and alcohol rehabilitation centre. A 'community facility', as defined within the LEP is a permissible use within both zones.''


Scooter's reply

This came up during the hearings in the last few days.

Apparently a definition of "house" includes a group dwelling or some similar wording and the Senior Commissioner accepted ABLE's request that the proposed NarCONon be included under that definition. I don't remember the exact argument but their barrister was all over it and sounded convincing and, even more important, the Senior Commissioner was visibly in agreement with what he said. This apparently had happened previous to the current hearings.

The problem is the laws are deliberately lax to allow real estate developers to increase their already obscene profits and continue to donate large amounts to the very politicians passing the same laws. These "donations" saw several politicians from the NSW State Parliament stand aside prior to the last election due to the cash that had been funnelled into their election campaigns courtesy of said developers, despite laws to the contrary.

The problem (for the cult) is that they were so sloppy AND tardy in putting together their proposals AND they kept changing them that their own hired professional consultants ended up looking like complete idiots in the courtroom and the cult's own arguments were easily contradicted by their OWN PROMO.

And then ....

Nigel Mannock introduced the idea of BEAGLES

Yes, NarCONon at Yarramalong (if it were to be allowed to go ahead) will have a Beagle on-site 24/7. Nigel assured us all that this is not a pet but a professional working dog and he has had experience with Beagles in the past and they are great dogs.

Almost breathlessly we were informed how this dog would be trained to find contraband so that the NarCONon facility would be protected from illicit substances and that two staff would be trained in handling said Beagle in addition to their other job/s. This announcement was done yesterday at the hearing and had not been mooted before ANYWHERE.

It's typical of the insane way the cult has handled this whole saga - it's a last-minute "handling" of objections raised that the cult should have fielded and solved long before this hearing.

And it's one of many snippets that make me think Drunken Maggot is micro-managing this from His Palace. Didn't He have a Beagle that wore a Sea Org. uniform and had to be saluted?

I wonder if it will also be trained to sniff out "Out-Ethics" and "CI?"

 

[Free to shine]

If you are on Facebook, check out what Bryan Seymour posted about his coverage, probably a few days ago. I missed this one.

https://www.facebook.com/7newssydney/videos/1106381832719282/?pnref=story

 

[scooter]

Wrap-up of the final day's play:

Cult's barrister disagreed with basically everything that the Council's barrister had said in his wrap-up. Then tried to tender as evidence a survey the cult got done yesterday afternoon on the property to do with the sewerage system (a major stuff-up by the cult's side in their various attempts at submissions.) Seriously, this is soooo unprofessional it's unbelievable. But it's not the barrister's fault - why the hell is the cult trying to do stuff so long after the deadline they had been set?

One of the senior council staff told a resident that in 20 years of working in this area he has never seen such an unprofessional and flawed DA submitted. But (as our correspondent on the scene said to me) what can you expect from people who may or may not have finished high school and have been shut off from the real world for most of their life?

All wrapped up by lunch-time. Now we wait for the findings to be handed down.

I'm still gobsmacked by the cult trying to enter evidence on the final morning of the hearing. It's just unheard-of to even try that sort of stunt. But the cult has now set the bar so low that I doubt even a baby snake could get under it.

 

[JustSheila]

Thank you, Scooter, for all your updates and analyses, as well as for all your assistance to the Yarrawong residents throughout the cult's translucent attempt to get a foothold into the community through Narconon.

Reminding the court in the closing argument of the cult's non-compliance with sewage issues doesn't seem the brightest move.

Love the senior counsel's comment about the unprofessionalism of those locked off from the rest of the world!

The Beagle. I just love the Beagle:

'Yes, it's a community center that also houses people in dorms. They just happen to be temporary residents undertaking a drug rehabiitation program because they are addicts.

No, it is not open to the community, even though we call it a community center. It is only open to those who pay tens of thousands of dollars for the Scientology-based drug rehab program.

No, they don't have the normal rights of residents.

No, this is not a medically tested or proven method.

No, I don't know anything about all the people that have died or reverted to drugs at other Narconons.

No, I don't know anything about other Narconons recruiting drug addicts and using them to staff the facility.

No, I don't know anything about Narconon's drug addict employees supplying drugs to residents.

But don't worry, we've got it covered. We're going to buy a Beagle and the staff will personally train him to sniff out drugs!'

 

[JustSheila]

This came up during the hearings in the last few days.

Apparently a definition of "house" includes a group dwelling or some similar wording and the Senior Commissioner accepted ABLE's request that the proposed NarCONon be included under that definition. I don't remember the exact argument but their barrister was all over it and sounded convincing and, even more important, the Senior Commissioner was visibly in agreement with what he said. This apparently had happened previous to the current hearings.

The problem is the laws are deliberately lax to allow real estate developers to increase their already obscene profits and continue to donate large amounts to the very politicians passing the same laws. These "donations" saw several politicians from the NSW State Parliament stand aside prior to the last election due to the cash that had been funnelled into their election campaigns courtesy of said developers, despite laws to the contrary.

The problem (for the cult) is that they were so sloppy AND tardy in putting together their proposals AND they kept changing them that their own hired professional consultants ended up looking like complete idiots in the courtroom and the cult's own arguments were easily contradicted by their OWN PROMO.

It appears that DM is still calling the shots, which is enough to make any barrister appear stupid.

There are some serious differences between housing laws in Australia and the US, though, and some key differences between housing from state to state.

NSW is one of the states that has succeeded in formalizing residential agreements under the Dept of Fair Trading - a huge accomplishment. http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/pdfs/Tenants_and_home_owners/Residential_tenancy_agreement.pdf

Community housing implies there are multiple tenants. Tenants have specific rights under NSW laws. Some of those rights and requirements include:

1) A set deposit amount which is forwarded to an outside agency and returned at the end of the lease.
2) A specific lease period, with limits on amounts paid for first and last month's rents.
3) An inspection checklist that must be initialed and signed by the tenant.
4) Privacy rights, including reasonable notice when an owner inspects and the right to be present during inspection.
5) The right to "quiet enjoyment" of the premises.

Narconon does not do any of this.

Hotels and motels, of course, have entirely different regulations and requirements. So do 'buy-ins' of elderly housing, as they are, basically, long-term owners.

Narconon does not comply with hotel, motel, or elderly/shared property ownership housing, either.

Narconon does its own thing, separate and independent from any clinical or medical treatment and separate and independent of any housing or rental regulations, claiming its 'church' or 'non-profit' status to do as it pleases and treat its members/victims in any disgusting way it chooses. Narconon, like every other Scn group, attempts to close any avenues of inspection by outside agencies.

That Narconon will undoubtedly disturb the Yarrawong tenants' and homeowners' rights to 'quiet enjoyment' of their properties is a given. That it is an unsanctioned, unapproved method of bilking victims of society without offering real help but instead, leaving them imprisoned in an unhealthy environment under duress unless or until they adhere to a cult belief system while these vulnerable society members are in their most vulnerable state is a crime against humanity.

They are denied rights to proper medical care while they are under control of the cult and are required to sign away these rights when they go to Narconon. Narconon members have no rights - no human rights, tenant rights, or any other rights.

I hope you, the council and the residents win, Scooter. The way I see it, there is no way Narconon is either a community center or group housing and I believe NSW law has this covered, even if local council rules do not.

 

[JustSheila]

Any updates on this, Scooter?

If not, when will we know?

 

[scooter]

Any updates on this, Scooter?

If not, when will we know?

We wait now for the Senior Commissioner to announce that he's made a decision and will hand it down on (....) date.

Then he says what he's decided about the whole matter and which way he's been swung by the evidence and arguments presented by both sides.:confused2:

Then I give you a report on that (unless someone else beats me to it.)

Then "we" get more media on this toxic cult and its deadly front group masquerading as a drug rehab program.

Should be sometime in the next five weeks per the Council's legal team - the Senior
Commissioner has a reputation for being thorough but fast.

 

[DeeAnna]

In many areas of the U.S., if there is an existing sewerage problem on a property, any rezoning issue would likely be tabled until remediation was completed or at the very least until an acceptable plan for remediation was presented. And the sewerage problem would bring in the Health Dept. and possibly the Dept. of Environmental Protection. It can become quite a lengthy process.

 

[scooter]

In many areas of the U.S., if there is an existing sewerage problem on a property, any rezoning issue would likely be tabled until remediation was completed or at the very least until an acceptable plan for remediation was presented. And the sewerage problem would bring in the Health Dept. and possibly the Dept. of Environmental Protection. It can become quite a lengthy process.

Same here in Oz, BUT ..

it's usually easy to solve if both sides sit down and work it out. Which is what the Council's barrister organised with the Fire Protection issues. At the suggestion of the Senior Commissioner hearing the appeal.

Cult on the other hand got a new survey done concerning the land the sewerage overflow would utilise ON THE AFTERNOON BEFORE THE FINAL DAY OF THE APPEAL HEARING. Which is when the summing up of arguments are supposed to take place - not submission of new evidence - which obviously cannot be admissible to the proceedings.

What is killing the cult in this is their own "Standard Admin" procedures that have no relevance to anyone outside the Bubble. That's what makes this so much fun to watch.

It's death by a thousand routing forms.