Scientology - Linked to Satanism

Daimongnome,

There are indeed many indications that at the root of scientology there are various occult practices. I would encourage you to check out http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/tape-by-L-Ron-Hubbard-jr.htm if you are interested in the views of Ron jr....aka Nibbs. The penthouse interview is also an eye opener http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm

In my opinion one of the best jumping off points on this subject is http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/

Of course "A Piece of Blue sky" is a must read as is "Hubbard and the occult" both by Jon Atack

I think Corydon has already been recommended but I will mention him again.

Although many here will disagree with me I think the steven fishman interviews are also quite relevant to this particular subject as they show the disdain for Christianity that scientology holds as well as some good descriptions of the first and second walls of fire that mesh quite nicely with Crowley's descriptions of crossing the abyss (athough fishman never did the OT levels within the church he had the largest personally held library of lrh writings and lectures). Regarding Fishman though I must go ahead and state that many well reputed and more knowledgeable people than myself have raised serious concerns over his interpretation of the belief structure.

The end of part three and beginning of part four is particularly interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roN9C--bg-w

I would also recommend looking into John Whiteside Parsons and the Babylon Working. Sara Northrup is worth looking into as well. Interesting fact is that her mother moved the family to Pasadena when she was a child on the advice of her Ouija board http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Northrup_Hollister

I could go on and on....but this is my particular area of interest and if I get started I wont be able to stop....then I'll have to break out my notes and cite sources.....it'll get crazier than I want to defend here....suffice it to say you can go as deep down this particular rabbit hole as you can stomach and only find you must go deeper still.......there IS a dark power inherent in scientology and hubbard tech.....
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I could go on and on....but this is my particular area of interest and if I get started I wont be able to stop....then I'll have to break out my notes and cite sources.....it'll get crazier than I want to defend here....suffice it to say you can go as deep down this particular rabbit hole as you can stomach and only find you must go deeper still.......there IS a dark power inherent in scientology and hubbard tech.....

People get all confused about all of this.

There is nothing inherently wrong or bad with magick, the occult, or even Satanism per se.

What matters is the basic aim or intention underlying the person who involves him or herself with such subjects and practices.

It comes down to a simple factor:

1) Is the basic motivation one of self-aggrandizement, egotistical, self-serving and involving a willingness to harm and control others for ones own personal or group benefit?

2) Or is the basic motivation one of selflessness, compassion and a willingness to help others despite unique personal biases, concerns, desires and interests?

The above two points are primarily what define and separate the Path of Light from the Path of Darkness. White Magick and Black Magick involve the same principles, ideas and even practices, and it is ONLY the above distinction that differentiates the two. What matters are the underlying purposes and aims.

People who think that "all occult is all bad" are just uninformed . . or uneducated biased Christians . . . or just not-too-bright.

There is a DARK soul to Scientology, and it is only superficially due to these aspects of the occult and magick. The DARKEST aspect exists because of how Hubbard designed it all around a pure aim to empower himself above all else. Hubbard was about the LEAST "selfless" human being that one might ever hope to meet. :ohmy:

Involvement with Scientology, and moving up the Bridge to Total Goofiness almost always creates an exaggerated ego - a puffed up "thetan". Involvement with Scientology doesn't reduce concern for self and ego, but instead boosts it. In this way it aligns with the DARKER vein that runs throughout so much of Mankind's history.
 
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Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
It all comes down to the matter of intent.

The most evil spectres is IMO are torture, slavery and misery for mere profit.

$cientology is good at the above and Hubbard was good at being evil.

There, I finally said Hubbard was good at something.

-------

Note: The subjects of magic, suggestion and hypnosis are inextricably interwoven, and ancient.
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
(snip) /QUOTE]


As is the Lady in Red from Jack and Ron's moonchild cermony. I believe it was Margery Cameron (I think that's the name) who shows up prior to that event in New York City in a strange little book called "The Unobstructed Universe"..

And re Fishman, yeah well, I don't listen anymore.

And Re disdain for Christianity, Hubbard promised in a letter to destroy the Catholic Church, - he may have said Christianity...I don;t recall, Bob Minton had a copy of that at the LMT....but I've traced sources back to Hermes Trismegistus and ancient Egypt, where they may have actually prophesized the coming of Jesus. Now note this well: What we, by Christianity, were told was bad and evil, pagan worship is interpreted in Egypt as merely the expression of worship of the various faces of God, << ponder upon this, I had to think about this for weeks..

This faces of God concept extends to birds, insects, plants, and even Earth, stars and planets, and exists in Sufi, in Huna, indigenous beliefs, and India and China. This is also the supposed "new" age ALL is ONE idea..

"And so, O Asclepius, man is a magnum miraculum, a being worthy of reverence and honour. For he goes into the nature of a god as though he himself were a god; for he has familiarity with the race of demons, knowing that he is of the same origin; he despises that part of his nature which is truly human for he has put his hope in the divinity of the other part" Pg 55 F. Yates, "Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition" quoting Hermes.

Hubbard could be described as having attempting to amputate a portion of creation from God, for his own profit.

I hope I did not try to explain too much too quickly here. You really must do more reading if you find these few words intriguing...

Arnie Lerma
 
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Intent is the underling issue here though isn't it? Whether his intent was self aggrandizement, power over others, or a desire to create vessels for ancient dark forces, Hubbard's intent was surely aligned with the left hand path....anything which does not serve the light by default serves the dark. Scientology is (in my opinion) the inheritor or a long chain of dark, mystical energy starting at man's rejection of the good creative force of the God of Enoch, Noah, and Abraham. This rejection coupled with a desire to gain personal power leading towards the goal of unseating the Most High and taking it's place as creative force (or source) is the basis of the ancient mystery religions upon which scientology (and its many predecessors) is based.

That's right folks.....I'm a Messianic Jew.....well versed in the Jewish Pseudepigrapha, Midrash, Early Kabbalah, Mamichaeism & Mandaean and other gnostic sects, as well as the Christian Apocrypha.......also the works of Simon Magus, Valentinus, Ptolemaeus, and others....but I have no desire to argue the validity of Judeo/Christian/Islamic beliefs....at least not on this particular thread. Seeking knowledge is not inherently evil and a search for knowledge is the heart of any occult practice. So in essence I agree with what's been said...Intent is key.

With that out of the way I'd be interested in discussing the possibility that Hubbard created Scio with the intention of leaching power from his followers for his own personal, mystical gain while creating willfully ignorant vessels to house dark forces/energies/spirits. Any thoughts?
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
With that out of the way I'd be interested in discussing the possibility that Hubbard created Scio with the intention of leaching power from his followers for his own personal, mystical gain while creating willfully ignorant vessels to house dark forces/energies/spirits. Any thoughts?

Yes, and he hoped to ultimately attain proof of OT, ubermensch abilities, from his OTs after he finished destroying their personalities, making them fitting vessels for demonic possession. And those demons would become his army to dominate earth. I think that may have been his plan as it makes everything else he did make sense...to me anyway....

Note: Evidence of the cultic nature of the Reich was suppressed by the prosecution, because it was so weird, so that the leaders of the Reich at the Nurembourg show trial might not escape using pleas of insanity.
 
(snip) /QUOTE]


As is the Lady in Red from Jack and Ron's moonchild cermony. I believe it was Margery Cameron (I think that's the name) who shows up prior to that event in New York City in a strange little book called "The Unobstructed Universe"..

And re Fishman, yeah well, I don't listen anymore.

And Re disdain for Christianity, Hubbard promised in a letter to destroy the Catholic Church, - he may have said Christianity...I don;t recall, Bob Minton had a copy of that at the LMT....but I've traced sources back to Hermes Trismegistus and ancient Egypt, where they may have actually prophesized the coming of Jesus. Now note this well: What we, by Christianity, were told was bad and evil, pagan worship is interpreted in Egypt as merely the expression of worship of the various faces of God, << ponder upon this, I had to think about this for weeks..

This faces of God concept extends to birds, insects, plants, and even Earth itself, and exists in Sufi, in Huna, indigenous beliefs, and India and China. This is also the supposed "new" age ALL is ONE idea..

"And so, O Asclepius, man is a magnum miraculum, a being worthy of reverence and honour. For he goes into the nature of a god as though he himself were a god; for he has familiarity with the race of demons, knowing that he is of the same origin; he despises that part of his nature which is truly human for he has put his hope in the divinity of the other part" Pg 55 F. Yates, "Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition" quoting Hermes.

Hubbard could be described as having attempting to amputate a portion of creation from God, for his own profit

THIS is why I love this forum!
The reference to the various faces of God in Egypt is of particular import as exposure to this type of thinking allowed Moses the breadth of knowledge necessary to fully comprehend that there is but one god and reignite the Israelite belief in one single creative force. But as with many truths it can be twisted into the worship of the FACE rather than the supreme being...once the FACE rather than the Creative Force becomes the object of worship then the ultimate goal of darkness (corruption of man's relation to the godhead) is realized....another trick of the dark side. Your reference to the "new age" belief that "all is one" actually being an extremely ancient belief structure is exactly my point. This belief denies the supremacy of one single creative force and replaces it with the belief that we are no different than that force and seems prevalent in scientology leading the parishioners towards the belief that they too can someday become source in their own universe.

Marjorie Cameron is a very interesting person to read about as she was an essential part of the Babylon working and the vessel through which the energies Parsons and Hubbard summoned came into our realm. Although I must say I've always been a little morel interested in Sara Northrup as she was involved in Parsons OTO prior to Hubbard's entrance into that particular cabal and then left Parsons and company to be with Hubbard. She is arguably a more influential source on what scientology became than Cameron was.

Last but not least..... I can't wait to read Yates!
 
Yes, and he hoped to ultimately attain proof of OT, ubermensch abilities, from his OTs after he finished destroying their personalities, making them fitting vessels for demonic possession. And those demons would become his army to dominate earth. I think that may have been his plan as it makes everything else he did make sense...to me anyway...

I couldn't agree more!
 

Gadfly

Crusader
With that out of the way I'd be interested in discussing the possibility that Hubbard created Scio with the intention of leaching power from his followers for his own personal, mystical gain while creating willfully ignorant vessels to house dark forces/energies/spirits. Any thoughts?

First, Scientology was the vehicle Hubbard used to realize various points of his Affirmations (wealth, make others his slaves, slam his name into history, etc.). While Scientology contains various tidbits of spiritual and mental practices, its key whole integrated larger purpose was to serve Hubbard's personal goals.

Second, I have never followed the idea through to its logical conclusion, but at some point long ago I had the idea that OT III style auditing actually CREATES "beings", and in a sense possibly allows entities from another dimension to enter into this one using these "etheral bodies" (demons, etc.). Possibly what he started with Parsons, and what Crowley may have begun, involved creating a sort of crack in this universe where various alien forces could enter. I do not believe this, and it is simply a notion that occasionally appears in my mind.

Third, while I do see that Hubbard's followers are ignorant about a great many things, I don't see that Scientology followers house some nefarious dark spirits. I can't make sense of Mystic's (old board member here) notion that Hubbard was a "tulpa" created by advanced Tibetan Monks (black magicians) to create "negative energy" from which to "feed off of". Now, I could see that Nazi Germany might have created extreme amounts of negative energy for some demonic creatures to feed off of, and I have read much about occult ties to the Third Reich where the killing of the Jews was actually a type of ritual sacrifice aimed at unleashing powerful Dark Forces, but I don't see Scientology as that. Also, I see that the Nazis who believed and practiced such nonsense where mired in a demented version of the largely absurd Judeo-Christian paradigm. Just because a group of idiots take seriously and believe various ideas of the Bible, in terms of Good and Bad, and Dark Forces, and ACT OUT various "evil" things in the name of such ideas, does NOT at all means that there is any validity at all to the ideas themselves. It just means that people often do really dumb things in the name of really dumb ideas!

I will repeat that because I think that this idea better explains nearly ALL examples of evil that have appeared on Earth where any belief system was the motivating factor (whether Satanism, early Christianity, Communism, Capitalism, fanatical Islam, etc):

It just means that people often do really dumb things in the name of really dumb ideas!

I think the truth of the matter is that Hubbard, while familiar with a great many occult ideas, was moistly a dabbler, who USED these ideas primarily for personal wealth, fame, admiration and power. I don't see that he was working a larger plan to create vessels for various unearthly dark forces. In fact, I don't have much belief in "dark forces" at all. I have the view that Lucifer WAS the "good guy", at least with the framework of Judeo-Christian fairy tales. I view the path of enlightenment, where Lucifer is the Light Bearer, as valid, though granted this path can be strewn with many detours and blocks that can mislead the eager and sincere aspirant.

I see the God of the Christian Bible (old testament) as an ego-obsessed tyrant who requires worshipers and groveling genuflection (much like Hubbard). Lucifer correctly rebelled from THAT.

The path of human growth is a long one. I tend towards a Vedic paradigm more than any model outlined by the Bible with the Book of Revelation. I see that the Universe unfolds over extremely LONG periods of time, in the various eras that are called "yugas". We are each part of God, and though we can never exist as God in the fullest sense, in a certain sense we are each on our own way back to God. But, these are all loose metaphors and models created and explained from a limited and finite human perspective of the Unlimited and Infinite. They suffer in their inability to define and describe the true nature of this Universe.

Anyways, I see much more "evil" and "dark vampire forces" in something like child sex trafficking where human beings are stolen and forced into depraved activities for the profit of ruthless greedy people. While in a certain metaphorical sense people's souls are stolen in Scientology too, the magnitude of negative energy created is widely different.

At worse Scientology is some long-term sociological experiment originated and run by secret alphabet agency types, where Hubbard was at the right place at the right time to "run the program". I do not see that the deepest secret is that Scientology is any sort of vehicle used to create vessels for dark powers, entities and forces.

To me, the ONLY source of evil is in each of us as the misuse of Free Will. There are no outside evil forces. There is no Devil or Satan - such ideas are all metaphors. It comes down to what Jesus called ignorance when he was dying on the cross - he called this they "know not what they do". In a more detailed sense it is the following of a path defined by this contrived thing called an ego, and the choices made to serve THAT results in ALL examples of "evil".

The "self" is an illusion. But it is a necessary phenomena as the Universe unfolds on its way back to God. Separation, in terms of time and space, and differentiation, are what allow a thinking mind, self-awareness, consciousness and this thing called an "ego". Or more accurately, maybe it is the MIND itself, and its various activities, that creates and allows time and space, and the sense of separation . . . . .

At some point various people transcend this separation of self with all Creation that the mind causes, but it does have its purposes.

It is all about learning, growing and evolving - even with the really "bad stuff".

The end is the realization of the importance of selfless love, forgiveness, charity and compassion where all separation has vanished, where self has broken apart and faded away, and where one exists with a living awareness of the deep connection to all else. Whatever path or combination of paths eventually brings one to THAT is fine.

Of course, maybe I am wrong and Verbal Kint from The Usual Suspects was right when he said:

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

Rephrasing of the phrase "the finest trick of the devil is to persuade you that he does not exist" by Charles Baudelaire.
 
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NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Where? The only quoted commentary I see is JustMe's post. Yet, you've said that she disagrees with me. I see nothing in the quoted text (which references Hubbard's views on women and JustMe's perceptive assessment of those) with which I do, could or would possibly disagree or on which I've stated or implied any disagreement or form of rebuttal or, for that matter, which I even discussed herein, other than in this particular post right here. I said NOTHING of the kind. At all. I never would for one nanosecond even vaguely consider disagreeing with what JustMe says on this. In fact, I've spent years saying some very similar things about Hubbard and his views about women. I sure don't need to read his maunder-oops, I mean affirmations to know he was a fucking idiot and male chauvinist about women. I first noticed that in Science of Survival. Pretty appalling, really.

Really? I noticed that in DMSMH. Like every single engram was the result of domestic violence, of a woman being a complete slut, or attempting abortions with a knitting needle. Seriously, I might have gotten sucked much much further in if he devoted DMSMH to talking about engrams that came from stubbed toes or dog bites or other things that normal every day people experience.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Really? I noticed that in DMSMH. Like every single engram was the result of domestic violence, of a woman being a complete slut, or attempting abortions with a knitting needle. Seriously, I might have gotten sucked much much further in if he devoted DMSMH to talking about engrams that came from stubbed toes or dog bites or other things that normal every day people experience.

I noticed that, too. Dunno if that's a misogynist thing in of itself, but whether it is or not, there's no shortage of misogyny in Hubbard's stuff. And whether the knitting needle abortion thing (he thought it was like a billion times more common than it ever could have been) is misogynistic, it's certainly delusory.

I got the impression that he thought he kept running into incidents like this so wrote it up in DMSMH as OH MY GOD THIS HAPPENS TO ALMOST EVERYONE- then later decided it really meant whole track (meaning not just this life/pre natal).

I remember reading that and thinking no way would you have that many AAs (attempted abortions).

But still and all, this doesn't relate to what I said about the affirmations and that, apart from my view of the affirmations (which is only MY opinion and, thus, could be right, wrong or in between) being a bit different from JustMe's opinion. We're both agreed- as are most here, I would think- that Hubbard had some extremely skewed chauvinistic opinions about women- among others. I may've once thought it was the generation from which he hailed but these days I think it's not just that.

So although I'm not really into referring to the affirmations as much evidence of anything in Dn and Scn, I still see lots of attitudes and biases he had. And a problem with Dn and Scn was that he inculcated those personal attitudes therein.

You know what? I get that he didn't like gods. Places ya at effect, all this deity worshipping- I think he felt. And I get that. Though I think one can have communion with the Divine and not worship it and it doesn't have to be some vengeful Abrahamic god or Moloch or something icky like that. I think that a sense of communion with the divine is a wonderful thing missing from Scn. I guess he was trying to emulate Buddhism a bit and I know there are atheist Buddhists, but most Buddhism does foster and include a connection with the Infinite.

Either way, focus more on love and infinite nature and you don't get all this control stuff and meanness toward women, minorities, people working on staff, etc.
 

In present time

Gold Meritorious Patron
Daimongnome,

There are indeed many indications that at the root of scientology there are various occult practices. I would encourage you to check out http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/tape-by-L-Ron-Hubbard-jr.htm if you are interested in the views of Ron jr....aka Nibbs. The penthouse interview is also an eye opener http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/penthouse-LRonHubbardJr-interview-1983.htm

In my opinion one of the best jumping off points on this subject is http://www.lermanet.com/scientology-and-occult/

Of course "A Piece of Blue sky" is a must read as is "Hubbard and the occult" both by Jon Atack

I think Corydon has already been recommended but I will mention him again.

Although many here will disagree with me I think the steven fishman interviews are also quite relevant to this particular subject as they show the disdain for Christianity that scientology holds as well as some good descriptions of the first and second walls of fire that mesh quite nicely with Crowley's descriptions of crossing the abyss (athough fishman never did the OT levels within the church he had the largest personally held library of lrh writings and lectures). Regarding Fishman though I must go ahead and state that many well reputed and more knowledgeable people than myself have raised serious concerns over his interpretation of the belief structure.

The end of part three and beginning of part four is particularly interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roN9C--bg-w

I would also recommend looking into John Whiteside Parsons and the Babylon Working. Sara Northrup is worth looking into as well. Interesting fact is that her mother moved the family to Pasadena when she was a child on the advice of her Ouija board http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sara_Northrup_Hollister

I could go on and on....but this is my particular area of interest and if I get started I wont be able to stop....then I'll have to break out my notes and cite sources.....it'll get crazier than I want to defend here....suffice it to say you can go as deep down this particular rabbit hole as you can stomach and only find you must go deeper still.......there IS a dark power inherent in scientology and hubbard tech.....
i have been sitting here painting and watching this, my jaw is on the floor. i have heard his name hundreds of times but never read any of the affidavits. now i suppose i am going to have to find out what happened to him. he has a touch of OCD, but really he reminds me of a lot of OT's I knew. Are there any other videos of him?

p.s. i am going to have to repaint my project, it came out all kinds of wrong, lol. not a video to do art to.
 

Jump

Operating teatime
i have been sitting here painting and watching this, my jaw is on the floor. i have heard his name hundreds of times but never read any of the affidavits. now i suppose i am going to have to find out what happened to him. he has a touch of OCD, but really he reminds me of a lot of OT's I knew. Are there any other videos of him?

p.s. i am going to have to repaint my project, it came out all kinds of wrong, lol. not a video to do art to.

You could start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Fishman

and here:
http://fishman.home.xs4all.nl/
 

In present time

Gold Meritorious Patron
Oh, lots of stuff wrong with Scientology as ology/ism. But it's not satanic. I think DeWolf was not always accurate. (and there could be various reasons for that) I believe his interviews about his late father are a compendium of accuracy/truth and inaccurate and false statements.

They don't worshp Satan is Scn. There was a Crowley link to the OTO and Crowley referred to himself as The Beast. Also, I think that just looking at postulate theory, it seems to me that this was taken right out of Hubbard's occult studies. I definitely see an occult link for sure. But not satanic, as such.
Crowleythought Parsons and Hubbard were louts, or goats. Either way. they were just a joketo him.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Crowleythought Parsons and Hubbard were louts, or goats. Either way. they were just a joketo him.

I'm well aware of this. Or at least, I knew that Crowley had a low opinion of Hub.

That doesn't mean, though, that Hub didn't dabble in OTO (or that Parsons didn't, either). They did. And it's that connection, I do believe, that causes some people to feel that Scn has a Satanic connection.

Ah me. All these people expending energy on entities that do not exist or, in some cases, aren't as depicted.

Ever read The Dirt by Motley Crue? Horrible band, but great book. Well, Nikki Sixx was dabbling in Satanism back when he was living with Lita Ford. Lots of crazy shit happened.

Occultism does touch upon something. Although I have an extremely loosey goosey attitude toward belief systems, I myself am super wary of that stuff.
 

Smurf

Gold Meritorious SP
i have been sitting here painting and watching this, my jaw is on the floor. i have heard his name hundreds of times but never read any of the affidavits. now i suppose i am going to have to find out what happened to him. he has a touch of OCD, but really he reminds me of a lot of OT's I knew.

Steve lives quietly in the Los Angeles area. He has 2 adult daughters also living in the area. One is a professional photographer & the other owns & operates a film production company.
 

Ogsonofgroo

Crusader
There's nothing wrong with the subject it just tickled my sense of humour to present an interview with someone who died nearly 22 years ago as recent. It just struck me as funny, that's all. I'm not having a go at anyone.
Thats good, because the OP stated that they recently saw that old interview, not that it was a recent interview (if I'm not mistaken it took place around '85) :)

I haven't read this whole thread yet but , to the OP, Crowley was no friend of Hubbard's, in fact he warned Parson's that ol' Tub's was a conniving con a bit before the thievin' fuck-wad ran off with his money and gf (Sara N), the subject has been thrashed before.
 

secretiveoldfag

Silver Meritorious Patron
Recent or not, Hubbard's application of Satanic principles to Scientology is a very valid topic. I have not the slightest doubt that he had learned some valid mechanisms for manipulating people, soul-cracking at Nibs put it, and that he designed techniques that allowed him to apply them to unsuspecting people.

Charles Manson picked them up too, at least in part from Scientology, and used them in a more disturbing fashion.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Recent or not, Hubbard's application of Satanic principles to Scientology is a very valid topic. I have not the slightest doubt that he had learned some valid mechanisms for manipulating people, soul-cracking at Nibs put it, and that he designed techniques that allowed him to apply them to unsuspecting people.

Charles Manson picked them up too, at least in part from Scientology, and used them in a more disturbing fashion.

I've a good friend who knows a lot about - and practices- occultism. She doesn't think Scn's Satanic, though she certainly has no use for it. She and I think it's definitely got occult roots, though. But the hail Satan meme- I really don't think so.

I think Hub was quite manipulative. This facilitated, was a product of, and fed into his self interest.

I had a friend once who knew the guy who intro'd Manson to Scn. Did CCHs with him in prison. I think that's how it started. Manson, being a former pimp, probably was already somewhat good at manipulation. I don't see CCHs as something that would set someone up to be better at manipulation. Would love to know what books Manson read.

I always had the impression that Manson used to sit and pontificate to his "Family" (Well, we know he did) but that some of those things he'd say included Dianetics and Scn stuff. Clem Grogan, one of his thugs, used to talk about the "Engrams on (his) brain". Reading this gave me the idea that this stuff got tossed into Manson's maunderings so that he could impress his little cult with how wise he was.
 
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