What's new

Scientology Makes Sense to Scientologists

owl

Patron with Honors
So, you disagree with the hypothesis presented but assert that the result of the tech is damaging, yet you also assert that you don't know if it works, what a unique perspective owl!:happydance:

Just a question, did you plan that communication?:confused2:


what??????? what do u mean?

r u being mean??
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
For something to be accepted logically and a decision made that it is "correct" one first has to FEEL it is right and then the mind goes busily on it's way justifying and finding evidence to back it up. Ever heard that analogy about a belief being like a table with many legs?...

I love that FEELING when I just KNOW that something is true!

It HAS to be!

Because it "indicates" to me!

And, being 76 trillion years old, and the Source of truth itself in this universe, when ever it FEELS true - IT MUST BE TRUE!!!

Such is the epistemological reasoning of the Scientologist.

Well said, HA.

Truth to a Scientologist is actually Truthiness.
 
In the early eighties we talked about, discussed, disputed, and debated all sorts about the theories of the "tech" we studied. We didn't dare fuck with procedure in the chair, but we all had different opinons about it, AND back then in Sydney, it was OK by a bunch of us, to have those different opinions.


I'm with you, Carmel. The other is just accepting "cult-think".


Mark A. Baker
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
In the early eighties we talked about, discussed, disputed, and debated all sorts about the theories of the "tech" we studied. We didn't dare fuck with procedure in the chair, but we all had different opinons about it, AND back then in Sydney, it was OK by a bunch of us, to have those different opinions.

You may have been able to dispute, discuss or debate theories among friends, yet as you say "We didn't dare fuck with procedure in the chair."

Surely that is what Zinj's opening statement says?

"2) The only people who actually *accept* Scientology are people trained by Scientology to accept it."

So if it is applied 'in the chair' then it is accepted, despite any personal reservations or disagreements, which of course one was not allowed to follow through on without dire consequences......
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
I suppose we could label the entire continent Type H. That will probably be part of the official eval. No wonder all the Aussies are blowing. They were always allowed to think and discuss. :coolwink:

You guys rock.

It's the "Aussie" case. Thank god for it. An entire culture created with an attitude. I shoulda emigrated in the eighties when I had the chance...
 

Carmel

Crusader
I suppose we could label the entire continent Type H. That will probably be part of the official eval. No wonder all the Aussies are blowing. They were always allowed to think and discuss. :coolwink:

You guys rock.

:lol:

Sounds good GT, but it wasn't quite that sweet. In the mid '80's, after the '83 mission, with the arrival of the AO and after we got a new CO ANZO from 'up lines', the screws started to go in - but, "ya can't teach an old dog new tricks". At this time, compliance to "group think" did 'start' to become the order of the day. Still, in typical ANZO fashion, there were always newbies who bucked at that.

After a while, we became quite careful as to what we talked to who about. We got that way, because sometimes we'd cop 'roll back', sec checks and extended OT eligibilities for expressing our opinion. Being mindful of who we discussed things with, somewhat minimized the amount of times we were subjected to such actions.

For example, in '86, I was breast feeding my first child. An SO member with little 'rank' (and a girl I was pretty friendly with), suggested to me that I shouldn't be breast feeding, and quoted the LRH reference on it. I told her that I knew the reference, and didn't agree with his opinion on that one. She argued with me about it. During that argument I said something like that while I could understand his point about nutrition having some validity in some cases, to negate breast feeding and advise against it, when it was just the best thing (for so many reasons) was thoughtless on LRH's part. I made some comment that I thought he was just being a typical ignorant male making that comment about it, and that it annoyed me, 'cause I thought that some women would follow his bad advice on that one. She understood me I thought. We laughed. Next thing, she wrote a KR on me, and I ended up getting about two intensives of sec checking on LRH. Christ, I was pissed off!

At the time, I was asserting my "correctness", but the sec check continued. Back then I thought it was just an arbitrary from some fuck head in ANZO, being vindictive towards me. I didn't get (or I was in denial) that this was the 'norm' and how things were supposed to be. It took me a long time to wake up to that fact. For many years, a few of us thought that 'they' had it wrong - we had no idea that it was 'us' who had it wrong, and that the 'they' were playing the 'game' just as it was intended.
 

Carmel

Crusader
You may have been able to dispute, discuss or debate theories among friends, yet as you say "We didn't dare fuck with procedure in the chair."

Surely that is what Zinj's opening statement says?

"2) The only people who actually *accept* Scientology are people trained by Scientology to accept it."

So if it is applied 'in the chair' then it is accepted, despite any personal reservations or disagreements, which of course one was not allowed to follow through on without dire consequences......
I don't agree FTS. In business (working for another), or at University, in the courts, or wherever, one often has to follow procedure whether one agrees with it or not.

Accepting procedure and following procedure, is quite different to accepting something hook line and sinker as 'truth'.
 

Good twin

Floater
Carmel, I tend to believe that very few played the game as it was intended, unless it was intended as a game of cover your tracks and speak glibly of standard tech. (which it very well might have been) :duh:
 

Carmel

Crusader
Carmel, I tend to believe that very few played the game as it was intended, unless it was intended as a game of cover your tracks and speak glibly of standard tech. (which it very well might have been) :duh:

Yep!

To clarify what I meant - DM's intentions on how he wants the game played are clear - it should have been quite obvious to even those out of the loop about the real scene, when GAT came along. In the 90's I thought that it was DM who was to blame for it all. I didn't blame LRH, 'cause after all, he put the Creed there, and stuff like the Code of Honour, WTH etc.

It's evident to me now that LRH was to blame from the beginning. He set the tone and the example for the 'church', very early on. On paper, and on tape, he said the game was one thing, but the game he wanted, played, and got others to play out, was quite another. In hindsight it is all quite clear to me now, and what occurred within the ranks was clearly intended, but I didn't see it that way, back then.
 

Bee Sting

Patron with Honors
Have you been drinking, Zinji?

Paul

If you drive an abulance off the road and beat the psych-drug-weilding paramedico into senseless oblivion because you want to give the accident victims an 'assist'...

You may be a Scientologist :)

Zinj

And... if you put tooth paste on a tooth brush and brush your teeth (tooth = paste = tooth = bursh = brush = teeth) :D

and white gloves are worn for weddings only ....

and watching the NEWS is daily occurrence not a flighting memory of Walter Kronkite ...

and Stark Trek is not making you think about past lives or contemplating pointy ears ...

and re-runs of Johnny Carson makes you laugh in stitches all over again and not make you feel not so darn... :old:

and when you can reminisce with friends knowing you can wake up the next morning without guilt, remorse or wondering what is in the yellow folder

and when the "smell of ptsness" :wink2: in the morning is just a divine as a freshly brewed cup of coffee

and when eating a delicious Carmel german cholocate cake is just as sinful to the palate as an SP to looking through the GreyLensMen for Ethical Particles, or Fluffy Airheads findings Oudies with MMI's, Terls, Traks, or trying to bring HCO Order to Klidov and Alanzo's Degraded Beings when Being Out is .... ah, taking Small Steps into the field of Tiger Lilys', DullOldFarts, Vinaire's, Marks and Markus', Emma's, Alex's, Tom's, Anons, Good Twins, Lynn's and Wisened Feral Humans Again, ............ and the list goes on and on

hmm.... I might just be a wog

Oh, by the way, I'll have Zinj on the rocks please! :coolwink:

I love guys and if I didn't mention you specifically, you are always on my mind

Honey Love,

Bee Sting

Ps. If I offended anyone... I apologize profusely... (me very sorry!)
 

Carmel

Crusader
Funny post Bee Sting :giggle:

<snip>
Oh, by the way, I'll have Zinj on the rocks please! :coolwink:
<snip>

I'd be with ya on that one BS, maybe we could share? :whistling: Although that may not be such a good idea :no: ....the zing in Zinj could peter out, then things could get a bit boring around here. :unsure:
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I don't agree FTS. In business (working for another), or at University, in the courts, or wherever, one often has to follow procedure whether one agrees with it or not.

Accepting procedure and following procedure, is quite different to accepting something hook line and sinker as 'truth'.

accept - definition
http://www.yourdictionary.com/accept

transitive verb

1. to take (what is offered or given); receive, esp. willingly
2. to receive favorably; approve to accept a theory
3. to submit to; be resigned to he had to accept defeat
4. to believe in
5. to understand as having a certain meaning
6. to respond to in the affirmative to accept an invitation
7. to admit as a student, member, etc.
8. to agree to take the responsibilities of (a job, office, etc.)
9. to receive (a committee report) as satisfactory according to parliamentary procedure
10. Business to agree, as by a signed promise, to pay
11. Law to receive with intent to retain and adopt



In a Scientology Org, one is always referred back to LRH material. If one questions things, even for the sake of clarity, a reference is quoted and shown. Or a correction is done. Or an ethics handling, if it has gone that far. And it always begins with KSW #1, no matter who says otherwise. To do or say otherwise is to not be a Scientologist. And in that case ,why bother with this discussion?

Whilst I believe Scientology is only a business, the way in which it is legally structured, it is supposed to be a religion. Therefore a comparison to the way other businesses operate is worthless. To be a Scientologist is to follow the line. To do as LRH instructed and to accept what he wote and said. That is not the same as following procedure. It is cult think, and cult do. Businesses operate according to the law, and have ethical standards to uphold. Scientology looks down on wog law and standards. And as a Scientologist you must follow that line, continually.

Scientology doesnt make sense to non Scientologists. It is a belief system that reinforces itself, continually and that requires training. Thus, in my opinion, the original premise ("2) The only people who actually *accept* Scientology are people trained by Scientology to accept it.")
is true. :)
 

Carmel

Crusader
accept - definition
http://www.yourdictionary.com/accept

transitive verb

1. to take (what is offered or given); receive, esp. willingly
2. to receive favorably; approve to accept a theory
3. to submit to; be resigned to he had to accept defeat
4. to believe in
5. to understand as having a certain meaning
6. to respond to in the affirmative to accept an invitation
7. to admit as a student, member, etc.
8. to agree to take the responsibilities of (a job, office, etc.)
9. to receive (a committee report) as satisfactory according to parliamentary procedure
10. Business to agree, as by a signed promise, to pay
11. Law to receive with intent to retain and adopt



In a Scientology Org, one is always referred back to LRH material. If one questions things, even for the sake of clarity, a reference is quoted and shown. Or a correction is done. Or an ethics handling, if it has gone that far. And it always begins with KSW #1, no matter who says otherwise. To do or say otherwise is to not be a Scientologist. And in that case ,why bother with this discussion?

Whilst I believe Scientology is only a business, the way in which it is legally structured, it is supposed to be a religion. Therefore a comparison to the way other businesses operate is worthless. To be a Scientologist is to follow the line. To do as LRH instructed and to accept what he wote and said. That is not the same as following procedure. It is cult think, and cult do. Businesses operate according to the law, and have ethical standards to uphold. Scientology looks down on wog law and standards. And as a Scientologist you must follow that line, continually.

Scientology doesnt make sense to non Scientologists. It is a belief system that reinforces itself, continually and that requires training. Thus, in my opinion, the original premise ("2) The only people who actually *accept* Scientology are people trained by Scientology to accept it.")
is true. :)

Oh, for goodness sake Free to shine! How pedantic can we get here?

You and I will never see eye to eye on the subject of Scientology, or at least most aspects of it. From my perspective, in the last few months, any post of mine that you have responded to, or made comment on, you have been pushing the same message. For the record I just don't and won't see things as 'black or white' like you do. When I have discussed the shades of grey (as I was here on this thread), and you have commented, it has been with your "black or white" philosophy as usual.

If everything was and had to be so damn black or white, then I might agree with you on some of your conclusions, but I don't think that it is and nor do I think that it has to be. If it was, then I think there would be very little to have any discussion about! I'm not on this board for just a good old natter session about how fucked everything was and is with Scientology - to me that would be a complete and utter waste of time!

Without looking at and acknowledging the shades of grey, I don't see that one could ever see the truth. And, without ever seeing the truth (the good and the bad, and everything in between), I don't believe one can rid themselves of the bullshit/upset and be truly free of it.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Oh, for goodness sake Free to shine! How pedantic can we get here?

You and I will never see eye to eye on the subject of Scientology, or at least most aspects of it. From my perspective, in the last few months, any post of mine that you have responded to, or made comment on, you have been pushing the same message. For the record I just don't and won't see things as 'black or white' like you do. When I have discussed the shades of grey (as I was here on this thread), and you have commented, it has been with your "black or white" philosophy as usual.

If everything was and had to be so damn black or white, then I might agree with you on some of your conclusions, but I don't think that it is and nor do I think that it has to be. If it was, then I think there would be very little to have any discussion about! I'm not on this board for just a good old natter session about how fucked everything was and is with Scientology - to me that would be a complete and utter waste of time!

Without looking at and acknowledging the shades of grey, I don't see that one could ever see the truth. And, without ever seeing the truth (the good and the bad, and everything in between), I don't believe one can rid themselves of the bullshit/upset and be truly free of it.

My comments are nothing personal Carmel, though you seem to delight in thinking so. In fact they are more aimed at other people who read here and perhaps would like another viewpoint.

My views are also not black and white. I think anybody who survived 35+ years in scio is well acquainted with shades of grey. They are the very thing that destroys personal integrity if you allow yourself to compromise.

I am agreeing with the OP, and explaining that. However if you can't see what I see - yet - then we can agree to disagree. It took me many, many years to gain the full picture, and once you do, the extent of it is truly shocking.

So I agree with Zinj.:D
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
accept - definition
http://www.yourdictionary.com/accept

transitive verb

1. to take (what is offered or given); receive, esp. willingly
2. to receive favorably; approve to accept a theory
3. to submit to; be resigned to he had to accept defeat
4. to believe in
5. to understand as having a certain meaning
6. to respond to in the affirmative to accept an invitation
7. to admit as a student, member, etc.
8. to agree to take the responsibilities of (a job, office, etc.)
9. to receive (a committee report) as satisfactory according to parliamentary procedure
10. Business to agree, as by a signed promise, to pay
11. Law to receive with intent to retain and adopt



In a Scientology Org, one is always referred back to LRH material. If one questions things, even for the sake of clarity, a reference is quoted and shown. Or a correction is done. Or an ethics handling, if it has gone that far. And it always begins with KSW #1, no matter who says otherwise. To do or say otherwise is to not be a Scientologist. And in that case ,why bother with this discussion?

Whilst I believe Scientology is only a business, the way in which it is legally structured, it is supposed to be a religion. Therefore a comparison to the way other businesses operate is worthless. To be a Scientologist is to follow the line. To do as LRH instructed and to accept what he wote and said. That is not the same as following procedure. It is cult think, and cult do. Businesses operate according to the law, and have ethical standards to uphold. Scientology looks down on wog law and standards. And as a Scientologist you must follow that line, continually.

Scientology doesnt make sense to non Scientologists. It is a belief system that reinforces itself, continually and that requires training. Thus, in my opinion, the original premise ("2) The only people who actually *accept* Scientology are people trained by Scientology to accept it.")
is true. :)

This is an excellent argument, FTS!

Very well constructed, with very strong evidence for your conclusion. :thumbsup:

Way to go!
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Oh, for goodness sake Free to shine! How pedantic can we get here?

You and I will never see eye to eye on the subject of Scientology, or at least most aspects of it. From my perspective, in the last few months, any post of mine that you have responded to, or made comment on, you have been pushing the same message. For the record I just don't and won't see things as 'black or white' like you do. When I have discussed the shades of grey (as I was here on this thread), and you have commented, it has been with your "black or white" philosophy as usual.

If everything was and had to be so damn black or white, then I might agree with you on some of your conclusions, but I don't think that it is and nor do I think that it has to be. If it was, then I think there would be very little to have any discussion about! I'm not on this board for just a good old natter session about how fucked everything was and is with Scientology - to me that would be a complete and utter waste of time!

Without looking at and acknowledging the shades of grey, I don't see that one could ever see the truth. And, without ever seeing the truth (the good and the bad, and everything in between), I don't believe one can rid themselves of the bullshit/upset and be truly free of it.

Carmel -

FTS' post showed NO "black or white thinking".

In your post, you have not taken up ANY of her points that she made, nor have you made any of your own. You have simply personally attacked FTS as "pedantic" and a "black and white thinker".

This is a flunk in logic and critical thinking, and it is the use of the same old personal attack technology that L Ron Hubbard used on us constantly. It's a very bad habit that we all need to break after having this personal attack onslaught waged on us for so long.

Look over FTSes post again and see EXACTLY what she wrote that you disagree with.

I think you will find very little.

Reason trumps emotion every time.

Try it. I'm sure you'll like it.
 
Top