Scientology makes the lame walk..according to Debbie Cook's new letter

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
It's a joke in reply to what looked like another joke. Do you really think someone in Corsica told me this stuff?

I'm beginning to worry about some of you. Lighten up.

Touche'. I haven't been reading all the posts and jumped in too soon, which I realized the second I hit "send".
 
My dear esteemed Helluvahoax, Esq. Let me respond to your objections/comments, to wit: First off, I never doubted she crush reged the woman. Been on the receiving end of that sort of thing myself, though with not as disastrous results. Sorry that you took it that way.

Yes, I was serious about the car, because it seemed bogus to me. What kind? What make? What year? It just didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, being as most SO types at Flag don't have time to wipe their butts when in the toilet. Most of the staff cars I have ever seen both at Flag and in the complex are buried under half a ton of cobwebs. It never struck me as something any of them would see as much else then a burdon, something they don't have the money to pay insurance for, let alone gas. Reg's yes - they need them to run to your house and mine for that wed. eve dono.

Next - I am not a scholar of all of the trials and tribulations, mean nasty disgusting things the church has done to people all over the map for the past 60+ years. So this car bit was new to me. It never occurred to me that I should take that post as the gospel or do a search on the internet to see if monkeys are flying out of the poster's ass or not. My bad.

What I said about Howard Becker is true - He is on solo NOTs, he is a patron meritorious - look in one of the old IAS mag's - you'll see his smiling face there. And he told me personally, he paid for it with his IAS commissions.
I like what Debbie did too, but let's not get confused about her altruistic motivations. That never happened.
Oh I agree, I really like what she did, but who really knows her motivations? I have said before, it is possible she is (or was) baiting them out onto a killing field, and I have also speculated she may want to personally salvage Scientology, and what we see is her plan unfolding. But it could be stupid luck just as easily. She may have just fired the emails off, not thinking of the possible fallout. But, I doubt that.

However, thanks for taking me to task. Now I'll go read that damn long quote you put in there.

Mimsey
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
:thumbsup:
I know you feel that way Panda and I respect you for it - we're just in opposite 'wings" of the same side is all.

Anybody who wants to 'save scientology' is a deluded idiot who is supporting something I wish to see gone - and I don't mean "rehabilitated' I mean gone.

Cook, Miscavige, Rathbun, Rinder are all different buttocks of the same arse as far as I am concerned - all of them want to forward hubbard's insane vision and all of them want to be the ones running it and benefiting from it. I will not lend one bit of support or even goodwill to any of them in that endeavor.

On the day they wish to be out of that crap - then I will gladly extend my hand to help. Not until.


I believe Rinder is the behind of all this. Marty and Debbie are just tools.

FIFY

Tool: One who lacks the mental capacity to know he is being used.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
I think it's highly unlikely that these things will come to pass. Even Marty told us "the Church is dead". It's one of the few times I agreed wholeheartedly with something he said.

Debbie Cook, in referencing a Kinder, Gentler, More Compassionate Church, is obviously talking about an imaginary Church Of Scientology, something other than the actual Church Of Scientology.

(You already knew that, right?)

Debbie Cook seemed quite clear about her intentions in her New Years Eve email:

. . . I am not trying to do anything other than affect a change in serious off policy actions occurring. My husband and I have most of our family and many many good friends who are Scientologists. I have not been real interested in sticking my neck out like this. However, I also know that I dedicated my entire adult life to supporting LRH and the application of LRH technology and if I ever had to look LRH in the eye I wouldn’t be able to say I did everything I could to Keep Scientology Working if I didn’t do something about it now . . .

Meanwhile, looks like Marty's changed his mind:

martyrathbun09 | February 13, 2012 at 3:44 am | Reply

The people who answer “no” to this question will have ZERO role in any reformation that might result out of the gargantuan efforts of thousands of causative, non-naive folk: “Is it naive to think the Church can be saved?
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
and therein is the problem, Panda. The likes of Cook, Rathbun, Rinder, Logan and the rest are delusional. They keep looking back at the CofS past through their rose colored glasses and they miss the point that Hubbard's "organization" inevitably leads to fanaticism and bigotry and all the horrors that engenders. They gloss over the abuse that Hubbard inflicted and encouraged.
Yes, Mick, I agree with almost everything you said above. Except that I think it's just one of the problems they're facing ie. "How to excise the cancer without killing the patient." They don't yet appreciate that what they think of as the patient is actually the cancer.

They'll probably learn the truth sooner or later (just not yet), don't you think?
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes, Mick, I agree with almost everything you said above. Except that I think it's just one of the problems they're facing ie. "How to excise the cancer without killing the patient." They don't yet appreciate that what they think of as the patient is actually the cancer.

They'll probably learn the truth sooner or later (just not yet), don't you think?

Personally, I don't think they will learn...they're more like a Capt. Bill...err, I mean Astar than a Jeff Hawkins.

Face :)
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Meanwhile, looks like Marty's changed his mind:
martyrathbun09 | February 13, 2012 at 3:44 am | Reply

The people who answer “no” to this question will have ZERO role in any reformation that might result out of the gargantuan efforts of thousands of causative, non-naive folk: “Is it naive to think the Church can be saved?
I think you may have misunderstood what Marty is saying there.

In any event, I answer "yes" to the question and I have ZERO intention of having any "role in any reformation that might result out of the gargantuan efforts of thousands of causative, non-naive folk" (apart from vociferously opposing any crimes and abuse it might commit, of course).

Just sayin' :biggrin:
 
If LRH had been prescient he would have forseen the internet coming.
How do you know he didn't? That could be the why behind the Telex machines... I recall on one of the BC tapes him saying he was reading Ian Flemming before going to bed... Oh there he is now, taking to the blond floozey:

"Oh Sir, (running her hands through his shimmering red hair) your name is...?"

"Hubbard, Ron Hubbard"

Que music - "He's the man, the man with the spiders touch...Ron finger...":duh:

Mimsey[video=youtube;fKZbqo7cIJw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKZbqo7cIJw[/video]
 

Lone Star

Crusader
Touche'. I haven't been reading all the posts and jumped in too soon, which I realized the second I hit "send".

As the kids say today, "It's all good", and "no worries".

At that time the thread was pretty wild with misunderstandings and hurling accusations, especially with the Jim Logan part of the thread. I was misunderstood myself on a multiple of postings. Today has been a learning experience.
 
G

Gottabrain

Guest
How do you know he didn't?

Because of what Elron wrote in the green (policy) volumes. I did the OEC course.

One example, Treasury had 5-6 copies of every invoice on that incredibly stupid multicopy machine with the stupid carbons between. Hubtard loved paper, never wanted to convert to automatizing things. Preferred his old typewriter. Didn't like change, had no ability to see the future, ever (if he had SEEN he'd be bedridden from a stroke, maybe he would have done something to prevent it?!?!)

Prescience was never a quality of Hubbard that even the most loyal Hubbardite fanatics claimed.

There was the time he was out with a crew on Mission Into Time and Janet (who was there) reported he strutted out like a peacock in full Commodore uniform and self-awarded medals & paraphernalia only to see the locals literally on the floor laughing, so ran back, said it was full of SPs and ordered the boat leave the dock.

Oh right - Mission Into Time never found any evidence of any of the treasure Hubtard claimed was there either. But he got free slave labour to dig for it and try, anyway.

He didn't see that one coming, or the FBI raid in LA, or Mary Sue getting arrested and hisself going on the run, or his early orgs (Wichita) getting taken out from under him..

Nah. Hubtard was paranoid because he couldn't see the truth in front of his face, much less the future.

Scientology doesn't make the lame walk - it makes the sane run amok.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
I don't see that the COS is already dead, but if it was dead why would you need to worry about how people talk about Cook and any of them?

I'm speaking kinda metaphorically. I don't so much "worry about it" as "get irritated by it". At this time (just before the possible CofS legal attack against Cook is launched) I believe that diminishing Cook's credibility in the eyes of scientologists and the general public is counter-productive. It's just how I feel.

Who is "we"?

Whose battle.
Us. Ours. :biggrin:

(You may not, in fact, think of yourself as one of Us. You may not even think of the battle to expose scientology's crimes as Ours. Anyone who wishes to think of it as something else is perfectly free to think differently about these things... ESMB is not scientology, after all.) :biggrin:
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
...

Yes, I was serious about the car, because it seemed bogus to me. What kind? What make? What year? It just didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, being as most SO types at Flag don't have time to wipe their butts when in the toilet. Most of the staff cars I have ever seen both at Flag and in the complex are buried under half a ton of cobwebs. It never struck me as something any of them would see as much else then a burdon, something they don't have the money to pay insurance for, let alone gas. Reg's yes - they need them to run to your house and mine for that wed. eve dono.


wow - that was a weird question - Ron Norton and Jon Lundeen both had corvettes, I believe that one of the regges had a BMW sportscar - all bought from their bonuses and they were far from the only ones.

Even my wife and I had a car that we used - now that was an old Dodge Polara but we had a car. a lot of SO at Flag had cars - especially parents.

You may want to read up a little, you are missing a lot of info.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
I'm speaking kinda metaphorically. I don't so much "worry about it" as "get irritated by it". At this time (just before the possible CofS legal attack against Cook is launched) I believe that diminishing Cook's credibility in the eyes of scientologists and the general public is counter-productive. It's just how I feel.


But hasn't she diminished her own credibility? Should we keep silent about the out-points until the legal battle is over and then let loose? And how many current Scientologists and general public read this forum?

I'm actually giving your viewpoint some consideration.
 
I'm speaking kinda metaphorically. I don't so much "worry about it" as "get irritated by it". At this time (just before the possible CofS legal attack against Cook is launched) I believe that diminishing Cook's credibility in the eyes of scientologists and the general public is counter-productive. It's just how I feel.

Yeah, I do see what you mean about what might be used to discredit Cook in the legal battle........OTOH it is very difficult to project oneself into the spy vs spy nuttery of OSA, scientology, and especially when the "players" are the likes of Cook and Marty (out of court and possibly in court), while one is posting).
Who really controls that game?. I think Debbie Cook is a liar. Period. I don't care if others agree or not. Should I say it here? I have no knowledge of any crimes she may have committed. Should I point out that she supports hubbard while attacking DM and that this makes her stupid, deluded, a liar, or worse? I think that one of the best things that ESMB does for people is that it gives lots of practice in seeing inconsistencies in the way people present themselves....especally LRH, OSA, and on through to whoever drank or drinks the coolaid. I don't think this is something people neccessarily learn in one lesson. I think the reason that people got lured into the cult and stayed so long is that even before people get into the cult, they have a lifetime of learning to suspend their disbelief. They are sometimes taught in school to critically analyse too, but even that can be gotten around fairly easily. THAT, imo
is the answer to how the hell do intelligent people get hooked in. So it takes a long time learning to be truly analytical IMO>
I think that individuals learning that (as a group here), is more important than getting concerned about how someone "over there" just MIGHTbe going to use what I ("we") say for their spy vs spy game. FWIW......


Us. Ours. :biggrin:(You may not, in fact, think of yourself as one of Us. You may not even think of the battle to expose scientology's crimes as Ours. Anyone who wishes to think of it as something else is perfectly free to think differently about these things... ESMB is not scientology, after all.) :biggrin:
I don't connect myself to any US, or OURS, until I attend the intro lecture, read a basic book, and find out how much it's going to cost.....:biggrin:
On: the battle....yes, FTS pointed out that "the battle" is different things to different people.
 

LA SCN

NOT drinking the kool-aid
Bunny,

For the record and on the record, I don't know Jim Logan or "Lana M" (don't even know who that is). They are not in my social circle, and I'm not in theirs. But if L&L have found love, then good on 'em. There's not enough love in the world.

And I am not from Oz. Nor have I ever met any of the Oztralians here at ESMB. But I'd love to, for I love Oz (who doesn't), having been there once on holiday.

Unlike you, I usually enjoy talking with anybody, no matter what they believe or don't believe. In fact, how would I ever learn what someone believes if I didn't talk to them? And I would never "disconnect" from someone just because they believed something I didn't believe. That's not my style.

So why'd I yank your chain? Why'd I "lie" in response to your question about who / where Jim Logan was and who he was sleeping with? Because my irritation with your arrogance about who's sleeping with whom coincided with my getting tired of listening to you rant for 48 hours over and over about how much you despise Debbie Cook. You committed the ultimate internet sin -- you were boring.

Also, are you really so clueless that you don't know how much like a Church of Scientology OSA D.A. pack your repetitive ranting sounded like? Or how much the timing of your post -- prior to a summary judgment motion and hearing in San Antonio -- coulda / woulda / mighta been an OSA troll post? Any OSA influences in your own background? What are YOUR sins?

Truth is, I don't know you or anything about you, including whether you're an ex, a critic, or something else. For the record, I'm an ex and have been one longer than most people here were Scios.

And one more time, I don't want the Church of Scientology to continue. I've said so here many times. (Actually, I think a mod deleted one of my last statements to that effect because I stated it too violently and violated ESMB's rules of posting behavior.)

However, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I'm old. Really old. Ancient, in fact. Victories like the one most of us would like to see happen here usually take a long time to happen. In the real world you have to chip, chip away at ideas once they've become institutionalized if you seriously want them to disappear. And you have to be willing to play the long game. Only unsophisticates think that single guerilla actions win wars. That's bullshit.

I am also really tired of anybody here thinking that because some of us are realists and know this war isn't over and isn't going to be over in the next six months that we are apologists for the Church of Scientology. No fucking way, Jose'. That's just stupid.

I'll stop there.

TG1

HELL YEAH!

GREAT POST!

I enjoyed the repartee and would do it again!

And I just loved that line - "You committed the ultimate internet sin -- you were boring."

It was all in fun, really.
 

LA SCN

NOT drinking the kool-aid
...

There was the time he was out with a crew on Mission Into Time and Janet (who was there) reported he strutted out like a peacock in full Commodore uniform and self-awarded medals & paraphernalia only to see the locals literally on the floor laughing, so ran back, said it was full of SPs and ordered the boat leave the dock.

I can see that picture so well I almost feel sorry for him...in this endeavor we are in on ESMB, I've found out so much about and banged away so hard on Hubbard that at that moment of reading your post I saw truth - what a pitiful wretch of a human being he was.

Sad.

More sad the destruction of lives he still works from the grave.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
wow - that was a weird question - Ron Norton and Jon Lundeen both had corvettes, I believe that one of the regges had a BMW sportscar - all bought from their bonuses and they were far from the only ones.

Even my wife and I had a car that we used - now that was an old Dodge Polara but we had a car. a lot of SO at Flag had cars - especially parents.

You may want to read up a little, you are missing a lot of info.

Yeah, we used to all "race in" from the QI every morning. Well I wouldn't be racing in my Chevy Citation, but Lundeen and Norton would race in with their twin Corvettes.

Paul Miller, "the sleeping FSO reg", had the LARGE classy BMW.

One time Norton passed a car on the right, in the shoulder, right when the light turned red, and he got nailed by a Clearwater cop. It was funny being at muster, knowing why the Captain wasn't there yet. The trick was to make it to Flag, find a parking spot, and then make it to morning muster before they CLOSED the doors and wrote ethics chits on everybody who was late.

Lots of us living at the QI (where the parents with their children lived) had cars. That was back in 1984-86, and I know that they did eventually start discouraging cars, along with phones and TVs - sort of making it sure that staff were entirely HELPLESS and unable to connect with and get around in the "rest of the world".
 
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