ESMB has entered archive mode. All posts and threads that were available to the general public are still readable. The board is still searchable. 

Thank you all for your participation and readership over the last 12 years.

If you want to join in the conversation, please join the new ESMB Redux at

Scientology, Ron Hubbard and Hypnosis

Discussion in 'Evaluating and Criticising Scientology' started by mockingbird, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    I have repeatedly run into talking points used to derail or disrupt posts and threads on the covert use of hypnosis by design in Scientology. I have had to deal with the same issues over and over.

    So, to be efficient I am going to try to address the most frequently used points here and to have one place to route these ideas when they come up in the future.

    Claim: hypnosis is outdated and no longer accepted by psychology.

    Fact: hypnosis is accepted and used by many psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors and therapists in 2019 as I write this.

    Supporting Evidence: Psychology Today has the article The Truth About Hypnosis by Clifford Lazarus PhD up that states:

    "Hypnosis is, perhaps, one of the most misunderstood and controversial methods of psychological treatment. The myths and misconceptions that surround hypnotherapy mostly stem from people’s ideas about stage hypnotism. The truth is that stage hypnotism is essentially a theatrical performance and has about as much in common with bona fide clinical hypnosis as many Hollywood movies have with real life.
    The fact is, however, that hypnosis is a genuine psychological phenomenon that has valid uses in clinical practice. Simply put, hypnosis is a state of highly focused attention or concentration, often associated with relaxation, and heightened suggestibility. While under hypnosis (i.e., in a hypnotic trance), it seems many people are much more open to helpful suggestions than they usually are.
    The positive suggestions that people are given while hypnotized are referred to as “post hypnotic suggestions” because they are intended to take effect after the person emerges from the trance and is no longer under hypnosis.
    The suggestions given to people under hypnosis appear to be an important part of the mechanism through which the procedure works. While many people won’t accept or respond to an up-front, direct suggestion, under hypnosis, suggestions seem to get into the mind - perhaps through the “back door” of consciousness where they often germinate and take root as important behavioral or psychological changes. "

    The American Psychological Association has an article titled Hypnosis Today by Brendan Smith:
    "Hypnosis works and the empirical support is unequivocal in that regard. It really does help people," says Michael Yapko, PhD, a psychologist and fellow of the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis. "But hypnosis isn’t a therapy in and of itself. Most people wouldn’t regard it that way."
    "Hypnosis can create a highly relaxed state of inner concentration and focused attention for patients, and the technique can be tailored to different treatment methods, such as cognitive-behavioral therapy. Patients also can become more empowered by learning to hypnotize themselves at home to reduce chronic pain, improve sleep, or alleviate some symptoms of depression or anxiety.

    Hypnosis has been used for centuries for pain control, including during the Civil War when Army surgeons hypnotized injured soldiers before amputations. Recent studies have confirmed its effectiveness as a tool to reduce pain. Among the leading researchers in the field is Guy H. Montgomery, PhD, a psychologist who has conducted extensive research on hypnosis and pain management at Mount Sinai School of Medicine, where he is director of the Integrative Behavioral Medicine Program.

    In one study, Montgomery and colleagues tested the effectiveness of a 15-minute pre-surgery hypnosis session versus an empathic listening session in a clinical trial with 200 breast cancer patients. In a 2007 article in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute(Vol. 99, No. 17), the team reported that patients who received hypnosis reported less post-surgical pain, nausea, fatigue and discomfort. The study also found that the hospital saved $772 per patient in the hypnosis group, mainly due to reduced surgical time. Patients who were hypnotized required less of the analgesic lidocaine and the sedative propofol during surgery.

    "Hypnosis helps patients to reduce their distress and have positive expectations about the outcomes of surgery," Montgomery says. "I don’t think there is any magic or mind control."
    In a 2009 article in Health Psychology (Vol. 28, No. 3), Montgomery and colleagues reported on another study, which found that a combination of hypnosis and cognitive-behavioral therapy could reduce fatigue for breast cancer patients undergoing radiation therapy.

    Research has also shown the benefits of hypnosis for burn victims. In a 2007 report in Rehabilitation Psychology (Vol. 52, No. 3), Shelley Wiechman Askay, PhD, David R. Patterson, PhD, and colleagues at the University of Washington Medical School found that hypnosis before wound debridements significantly reduced pain reported by patients on one pain rating questionnaire. "

    Time magazine has an article entitled Is Hypnosis Real ? Here's What Science Says

    “There are many myths about hypnosis, mostly coming from media presentations,” like fictional films and novels, says Irving Kirsch, a lecturer and director of the Program in Placebo Studies at Harvard Medical School. But setting aside pop culture clichés, Kirsch says hypnosis is a well-studied and legitimate form of adjunct treatment for conditions ranging from obesity and pain after surgery to anxiety and stress. End Quote

    The Mayo Clinic has an article entitled Hypnosis:
    "Hypnosis, also referred to as hypnotherapy or hypnotic suggestion, is a trance-like state in which you have heightened focus and concentration. Hypnosis is usually done with the help of a therapist using verbal repetition and mental images. When you're under hypnosis, you usually feel calm and relaxed, and are more open to suggestions.

    Hypnosis can be used to help you gain control over undesired behaviors or to help you cope better with anxiety or pain. "

    Conclusion: plenty of people including psychologists from places like Harvard and the Mayo clinic believe in hypnosis, study it and practice it. To say it is outdated is not really being, well, honest. It is at best disputed but not outright rejected by a consensus or near consensus.

    Claim: Hypnosis has no scientific evidence and therefore as a claim presented without evidence can be rejected without examination.

    Fact: numerous people including many medical doctors and psychologists have claimed that they have studied hypnosis and found it to genuinely affect people. Additionally we have several studies of a scientific nature with evidence for examination.
    Supporting Evidence:

    Here is the title of an article on this and selected quotes :


    "We've always thought of the Stroop effect as almost automatic, and that's why this study is so important," he said. "Watching a participant's brain activity using both event-related potentials (ERP) and functional MRI (fMRI) during the Stroop test, we could see that not only was the brain's conflict-resolution center turned off as a result of hypnotic suggestion, but also those areas of the brain that may be involved in recognizing written words," Dr. Raz said.

    The findings suggest that Stroop interference is not the automatic, immutable process experts have hitherto assumed it to be.

    "This means that, using suggestion -- in this case post-hypnotic suggestion -- we were able to 'un-ring ' Pavlov's bell," Dr. Raz said.

    In the study, Dr. Raz and co-researchers Drs. Jin Fan and Michael Posner used standard tests to identify healthy, "highly suggestible" individuals (experts believe that about 10-15 percent of us are particularly susceptible to hypnotic suggestion).

    These individuals first took the Stroop test in practice sessions. Then, under ERP and fMRI observation, the participants underwent hypnotic induction. During this condition, Dr. Raz told participants that "Every time you hear my voice talking to you…you will immediately realize that meaningless symbols will appear in the middle of the screen."

    "In other words, the symbols were placed in a special context where the simple English words 'Red' or 'Blue' in the Stroop test appeared as gibberish," Dr. Raz said.

    The result: The Stroop effect disappeared. The power of suggestion essentially "de-automatized" the participant's reading response, causing them to view the words in the way a pre-lingual child or non-English-speaker might.

    This removed the essential conflict that usually occurs within the brain during the Stroop test, allowing participants to identify the color of the characters on the screen as efficiently as if they were simple blocks of color.

    "What's more, fMRI showed activity in exactly those brain regions important to the test – centers of attention like the anterior cingulated cortex and areas thought to relate to processing of visual word-form in the brain's occipital region," Dr. Raz said.

    From :
    From Thrive Hypnotherapy
    Yes, Hypnosis Works ! The Best Scientific Evidence for Hypnosis

    Before the advent of modern analgesics and anesthetics, hypnosis was often the most effective approach for eliminating pain and increasing survival in major surgical operations. James Esdaile, a Scottish surgeon in the early 1800’s performed hundreds of surgeries and amputations using hypnosis as the pain reliever. James Braid was another surgeon famous for his speedy amputations. His use of hypnosis significantly reduced shock and dramatically increased his patients survival rates.

    Even today hypnosis is still used in surgical situations. Below is a link to a video of a dental surgery being performed without any chemical analgesics.

    One of the best endorsements of hypnosis is the summary of a paper by Mark P. Jensen and David R. Patterson of the University of Washington on the topic of using hypnosis for chronic pain. In fact, if you are really interested in how hypnosis can affect pain and you want even more research than my article will provide, I recommend reading all of the paper I'm about to quote. It shines it's light on every area of pain and how hypnosis can positively impact it.

    "The empirical support for hypnosis for chronic pain management has flourished over the past two decades. Clinical trials show that hypnosis is effective for reducing chronic pain, although outcomes vary between individuals. The findings from these clinical trials also show that hypnotic treatments have a number of positive effects beyond pain control. Neurophysiological studies reveal that hypnotic analgesia has clear effects on brain and spinal-cord functioning that differ as a function of the specific hypnotic suggestions made, providing further evidence for the specific effects of hypnosis. The research results have important implications for how clinicians can help their clients experience maximum benefits from hypnosis and treatments that include hypnotic components" [7]

    Beyond chronic pain, hypnosis is widely used in the area of natural childbirth. One study showed,
    “Prenatal hypnosis preparation resulted in significantly less use of sedatives, analgesia, and regional anesthesia during labor and in higher 1-minute neonatal Apgar scores.” [1]

    Hypnosis has been actively shown to reduce the pain associated with fibromyalgia.
    “The patients experienced less pain during hypnosis than at rest.” [5]
    It’s really important to realize that pain is a multifaceted experience. This next study shows that different suggestions work on different parts of that experience.
    “Consistent with the Malone study, we found that different hypnotic suggestions differentially affect the two dimensions of pain. Specifically we found that hypnotic induction plus analgesia suggestion reduced the intensity dimension of pain significantly more than it reduced the unpleasantness dimension. Conversely, hypnotic induction plus relaxation suggestion reduced the unpleasantness dimension of pain significantly more than it reduced the intensity dimension. This demonstration of different pain interventions affecting different dimensions of pain is consistent with a growing body of literature in which pain is studied as a multidimensional experience.” [6]
    Beyond pain there are other unpleasant sensations the body can endure. Often times during chemotherapy and cancer treatment, some of the other drugs given can cause severe nausea and vomiting. Hypnosis has been shown to actively reduce that.
    “One of the first modern applications of hypnosis with cancer patients…[multiple] studies reported positive results including statistically significant reductions in nausea and vomiting.” [3]
    Hypnosis and Post Surgery Healing
    And the use of hypnosis to speed up the recovery time after surgery has been shown time and again. Two studies from Harvard Medical School show hypnosis significantly reduces the time it takes to heal.
    The first study showed that six weeks after an ankle fracture, those in the hypnosis group showed the equivalent of eight and a half weeks of healing. That effectively demonstrates that using hypnosis helped that group heal bone fractures 41% faster. [2]
    The second study focused on people having breast reduction surgery. The group treated with hypnosis healed "significantly faster" than supportive attention group and control group. [2]
    Hypnosis often works on multiple fronts. In this next study patients that went through surgery saw a decrease in pain as well as better outcomes overall.
    “Hypnosis has been demonstrated to effectively control pain and emotional distress and to improve recovery…results revealed a significant, large effect size…indicating that surgical patients in hypnosis treatment groups had better outcomes than 89% of patients in control groups.” [3]
    Hypnosis reduces pain and speeds up recovery from surgery:

    “Since 1992, we have used hypnosis routinely in more than 1400 patients undergoing surgery. We found that hypnosis used with patients as an adjunct to conscious sedation and local anesthesia was associated with improved intraoperative patient comfort, and with reduced anxiety, pain, intraoperative requirements for anxiolytic and analgesic drugs, optimal surgical conditions and a faster recovery of the patient. We reported our clinical experience and our fundamental research.” [4]
    All citations are in AMA format when applicable. I highly recommend using Google scholar or Pub Med if you are interested in reading the full papers. They are incredibly interesting!
    [1] Vandevusse L, Irland J, Healthcare WF, Berner MA, Fuller S, Adams D. Hypnosis for childbirth: a retrospective comparative analysis of outcomes in one obstetrician's practice. Am J Clin Hypn. 2007;50(2):109-19.
    [2] Ginandes C, Brooks P, Sando W, Jones C, Aker J. Can medical hypnosis accelerate post-surgical wound healing? Results of a clinical trial. Am J Clin Hypn. 2003;45(4):333-51.
    [3] Montgomery GH, Schnur JB, Kravits K. Hypnosis for cancer care: over 200 years young. CA Cancer J Clin. 2013;63(1):31-44.
    [4] Faymonville ME, Defechereux T, Joris J, Adant JP, Hamoir E, Meurisse M. [Hypnosis and its application in surgery]. Rev Med Liege. 1998;53(7):414-8.
    [5] Wik G, Fischer H, Bragée B, Finer B, Fredrikson M. Functional anatomy of hypnotic analgesia: a PET study of patients with fibromyalgia. Eur J Pain. 1999;3(1):7-12.
    [6] Dahlgren LA, Kurtz RM, Strube MJ, Malone MD. Differential effects of hypnotic suggestion on multiple dimensions of pain. J Pain Symptom Manage. 1995;10(6):464-70.
    [7] Jensen MP, Patterson DR. Hypnotic approaches for chronic pain management: clinical implications of recent research findings. Am Psychol. 2014;69(2):167-77.
    [8] Barber J. Freedom from smoking: integrating hypnotic methods and rapid smoking to facilitate smoking cessation. Int J Clin Exp Hypn. 2001;49(3):257-66.
    [9] Johnson DL, Karkut RT. Performance by gender in a stop-smoking program combining hypnosis and aversion. Psychol Rep. 1994;75(2):851-7.
    [10] Elkins GR, Rajab MH. Clinical hypnosis for smoking cessation: preliminary results of a three-session intervention. Int J Clin Exp Hypn. 2004;52(1):73-81.
    [11] Wynd CA. Guided health imagery for smoking cessation and long-term abstinence. J Nurs Scholarsh. 2005;37(3):245-50.
    [12] University of Iowa, Journal of Applied Psychology, How One in Five Give Up Smoking. October 1992. (Also New Scientist, October 10, 1992.)
    [13] Kaminsky D, Rosca P, Budowski D, Korin Y, Yakhnich L. [Group hypnosis treatment of drug addicts]. Harefuah. 2008;147(8-9):679-83, 751.
    [14] Frederick C. Hypnotically facilitated treatment of obsessive-compulsive disorder: can it be evidence-based?. Int J Clin Exp Hypn. 2007;55(2):189-206.
    [15] Anderson JA, Dalton ER, Basker MA. Insomnia and hypnotherapy. J R Soc Med. 1979;72(10):734-9.
    [16] Allison DB, Faith MS. Hypnosis as an adjunct to cognitive-behavioral psychotherapy for obesity: a meta-analytic reappraisal. J Consult Clin Psychol. 1996;64(3):513-6.
    [17] Clarke JH, Reynolds PJ. Suggestive hypnotherapy for nocturnal bruxism: a pilot study. Am J Clin Hypn. 1991;33(4):248-53.
    [18] Pekala RJ, Maurer R, Kumar VK, et al. Self-hypnosis relapse prevention training with chronic drug/alcohol users: effects on self-esteem, affect, and relapse. Am J Clin Hypn. 2004;46(4):281-97.

    Conclusion: Evidence involving scientific methodology regarding hypnosis does in fact exist and so the claim that "no scientific evidence regarding hypnosis exists" is clearly false.
  2. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Please refer us to the threads where people have claimed that hypnosis is outdated and no longer accepted by psychology (assuming it happened on ESMB).

    Also, this is a message board, people discuss things and throw ideas and thoughts around ... you don't 'have to deal with' anyone or any issues.
  3. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    Yes, my thoughts exactly. Who said hypnosis is outdated?
  4. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Claim: You cannot "know" if Scientology founder Ron Hubbard knew a lot about hypnosis because he lied so much and he plagiarized so many ideas.

    Fact: In looking at pathological liars there are things that psychologists, police and even historians CAN use to determine if a liar knows something. First off, if a person says something then you know they HAVE the information. It doesn't mean they believe it or do not believe it. But it shows they have it when they say it.

    Police, psychologists and historians have used this fact for decades to work out when people have been aware of ideas and claimed to have no knowledge of them.

    This can be used with Hubbard. He wrote a lot and recorded thousands of taped lectures. He has created a library reported to be several million words of his tapes alone. Scientology has given us a vast wealth of information to examine and when we add in Hubbard's private letters and his affirmations (private self-hypnosis commands) we truly get an opportunity to look into his mind.

    I contend that Hubbard held many ideas regarding hypnosis. There is ample evidence he practiced and studied hypnosis for decades.

    Numerous accounts by his contemporaries include not ing that Hubbard would expertly hypnotize people at parties and there are several accounts of him using hypnosis in creating auditing prior to writing Dianetics in 1950.

    Additionally, we have many quotes from Hubbard himself confirming he had a wealth of information regarding hypnosis. Now, to be clear, I am NOT saying Hubbard understood it perfectly or that the practice works exactly as he thought, but many people who are proficient in activities do not understand the underlying reasons why they are successful or capable.

    The point is that despite protests from some people to the contrary it can be established that Hubbard had a significant education in hypnosis, despite his lying.

    Supporting Evidence:
    I am going to start with several quotes from Never Believe A Hypnotist, an article by Jon Atack. I recommend anyone who wants to understand Hubbard or Scientology read the article in full. It is available free online.

    As well as showing genuine insight into hypnosis, Hubbard's statements are a fascinating maze of contradiction and misdirection. It soon becomes apparent that Hubbard is both eager to show off his knowledge and determined to hide something vital: that Dianetics is a form of hypnosis.
    Prolonged and deliberate study of Hubbard's teachings makes it impossible to escape the conclusion that Dianetics is a form of hypnosis, differing only from that subject in the words used to describe the procedures. Hubbard's own Policy Letter "Propaganda by Redefinition of Words” (PR series 12) gives some understanding of the sigificance of redefinition (something Hubbard was frequently prone to, "reasonable” and "postulate”, for instance). The power of redefinition is also described in part in Robert Lifton MD's "thought reform model” under the heading "loaded language”, or indeed in Korzybski's General Semantics ("the map is not the territory; the word is not the thing itself”). Hubbard of course paid homage to Korzybski in both Science of Survival and 8-8008, and borrowed the misunderstood word from him (Hubbard also redefined Korzybski's various forms of isness). Korzybski's notions of the power of language figure not only as a basis for Dianetics, but also for Rational Emotive Therapy and Cognitve Therapy. Never underestimate the power of words! They are fundamental to manipulation and are the stuff of which positive suggestions or engrams are made.

    Hubbard's research:
    According to his own accounts, Hubbard's research consisted of hypnotism and drug hypnotism (see below), clairvoyance, automatic writing, automatic speaking (AstSF, May 1950, or EoS, p.56; see also R&D1, p.106) and faith healing (R&D1, p.186). He also had an interest in Freud's ideas prior to the introduction of free association, and Dianetic technique has many points in common with Freud's early attempts at therapy (Atack, p.108f; Freud, 1909). Hubbard also drew upon Korzybski's General Semantics, Wiener's Cybernetics and psychiatric research into psychodynamic therapy - including abreaction - and drug hypnotism. Hubbard gave no mention of scientific experiments or controls, and no case histories or follow-up studies have ever been made available.

    Hubbard was also knowledgable about the history of hypnotism. He posited an early date for its discovery: "The art of hypnotism is very old, tracing back some thousands of years and existing today in Asia as it has existed, apparently from the dawn of time.” (DMSMH, p.12). "From India it long ago filtered to Greece and Rome and it has come to us via Anton Mesmer” (ibid, p.252). Hubbard also referred to the works of Bernheim and Charcot (R&D1, p.33; Charcot is listed as one of the men without whom "the creation and construction of Dianetics would not have been possible” in the acknowledgments page in SOS).

    In his second published article, "Dianetics the Evolution of a Science”, Hubbard described a hypnotic session and said that it had taken him nine years to understand its importance (EoS, p.23). Hubbard described a number of hypnotic experiments - indeed, they constitute almost the entire of his recorded experiments. Unfortunately, case notes have never been available.

    L. Ron Hubbard was sixteen when he made his first brief trip to Asia with his mother, in 1927. He made a second brief trip with both parents, and returning to the United States in 1929 (Atack, pp.53-57). He was later to claim that he had studied hypnotism in Asia (EoS, p.22; DMSMH p.252 [also DMSMH p.95, however, Hubbard's claim to have visited India is spurious. See Atack and Miller]). Therefore, Hubbard claimed to have been a practitioner of hypnotism for more than twenty years prior to the release of Dianetics: MSMH.

    Hubbard flatly contradicted his statement that hypnotism is not used by saying that if a preclear drops into a "hypnotic trance ... the motto is: Work with him where he lies. If he drops into a half hypnotized state just by closing his eyes, work him there.” (R&D 1, p.336). Hubbard also asserted that "The mechanism by which the mind is able to cause physical disability or predispose the body to an illness and perpetuate sickness is, in its basic cause, a very simple thing ... A series of simple tests can be made on drugged or hypnotic patients which will prove clinically in other laboratories this basic mechanism. A series of these tests were run in the formulation of dianetics with uniform success.” (DMSMH, pp.93f).

    In a lecture given three months after the publication ofDianetics: MSMH, Hubbard attributed a major discovery - prenatal memory - to a session in which he placed a volunteer in "amnesia trance” (R&D3, p.118). In the same lecture, he also credited his use of "deintensification” - where a patient goes through the memory of an incident repeatedly - to his study of hypnotism.Having denied that Dianetics came out of hypnotic research (DMSMH, p.58, cf p.201), Hubbard proceeded to regale his reader with tales of his hypnotic work. Many general statements were made about his work with hypnotism. External evidence supports Hubbard's practice of hypnotism (e.g., Miller, pp.140-141), and even taking into account Hubbard's propensity for exaggeration, it is evident that he had considerable experience as a hypnotist. Don Rogers, one of Hubbard's few close associates during the year preceding publication of the first book, has said that Hubbard used "deep trance” until he was commissioned to write the book in January 1950. He abandoned the practice because he thought it was unpopular (Rogers correspondence to Atack).
    In his second article, Hubbard admitted "I knew hypnotism was, more or less, a fundamental” (EoS, p.22) and said that "hypnosis was examined” (ibid, p.23; see also EoS, p.96; R&D1, p.183). Hubbard also claimed to have used "hypno-analysis” (EoS, p.24) - psychoanalysis practised on a hypnotised subject - and recommended a book on the subject (Hypnotism Comes of Age, R&D2, p.12).
    In an early lecture, Hubbard said that he had "worked a case in amnesia trance” (R&D1, p.183). He advised against amnesia trance, but added "it has been subjected to much research” and said "if other methods cannot be used ... amnesia trance can be employed” (DMSMH, p.385; see also R&D1, p.183).

    Narcosynthesis and abreactive therapy:During the Second World War, both U.S. and British psychiatrists were experimenting with a form of therapy which induced hypnotic states through the use of drugs. Dr. William Sargant has left a description of his work on soldiers with "battle neurosis” or "combat fatigue” in his Battle for the Mind (1957). Drs. Roy Grinker and John Spiegel published an account of their work in 1945, under the title Men under Stress. The barbiturates and sodium pentothal were used in this work, which also relied upon Pavlov's discovery of conditioned responses and Freud's concepts of the unconscious mind and repression. Grinker and Spiegel called their work "narcosynthesis”, because it used narcotic sedation to assist the patient to rebuild or "synthesize” the personality.
    As with Dianetics, in narcosynthesis the patient was required to "abreact” or re-experience traumatic events. Hubbard was familiar with this work: not only did he recommend a book which describes it (Wolfe and Rosenthal, Hypnotism Comes of Age, R&D2, p.12), but he also referred to narcosynthesis directly: "One will find regression if one treats soldiers who have been unlucky enough to undergo narcosynthesis ... He was merely sick before, but now he is crazy ... Anything which is touched in narcosynthesis is apt to be restimulated permanently.” (R&D1, p.333f). Hubbard even suggested the headline "Man released from Veteran's Hospital on Tuesday kills wife on Thursday!” (ibid, p.334).It seems eminently possible that Hubbard encountered narcosynthesis, or at least discussion of it, during his stay at Oakland Naval Hospital in 1945. Hubbard claimed to have treated schizophrenics with narcosynthesis (DMSMH, p.123f), as well as doing further drug hypnotism on cases which had already been "cured” by narcosynthesis (EoS, p.24). In a lecture given a few weeks after publication of this article, Hubbard warned against the practice of narcosynthesis (R&D1, p.123; see also DMSMH, p.390 drug hypnotism is "dianetically illegal”). However, a few days after this lecture, Hubbard said "it is allowable ... to produce a more acessible condition by amnesia trance, and even by drugs” (R&D1, p.184). In one of his first lectures, Hubbard had said "Narcosynthesis and other drug therapies have some slight use in Dianetics” (R&D1, p.8; see also R&D1, p.48).
    Hubbard's research not only included decades of "straight hypnosis”, he also gave the idea that his work with narcosynthesis was extensive: "[tests] have been made on people who could be hypnotized and people who could not but were drugged. They brought forth valuable data for dianetics.” (DMSMH, p.57); "one day, a multi-valent patient, under drugs, went back to his birth” (DMSMH, p.126).

    Of amnesia or deep trance, Hubbard said "This method has many things wrong with it. The entire duration of treatment is very long and difficult. The patient ordinarily speaks very slowly, is unable to contact [traumatic] incidents, his computational ability on his own life is very poor, and he will be uncomfortable during almost the entire period that you are working with him” (R&D1, p.183; see also DMSMH, p.385). Hypnotism also "carries with it transference” and "enormous operator responsibility” (DMSMH, p.201).

    The importance of hypnotism:
    Hubbard did his initial research using hypnotism. The major discoveries of Dianetics were made in hypnotic sessions. Preclears may already be in a "trance” state, or may accidentally go into trance as a consequence of auditing procedures. In hypnotism "we have the visible factors of how the reactive mind operates.” (DMSMH, p.63). As already cited, the auditor "must be prepared to use hypnotism, he must know how it works, what he should do to make it function, how to regress a person in hypnotism and so on” (R&D 1, p.307).

    References:NB: page numbers vary in later editions, and some material may have been censored from these editions.
    Astounding Science Fiction, May 1950.
    Atack, Jon - A Piece of Blue Sky, Lyle Stuart books, 1990.
    Freud, Sigmund - the Clarke Lectures in Two Short Accounts of Psycho-Analysis, Penguin books.
    Hubbard, L.Ronald, Dianetics - the Modern Science of Mental Health, Hermitage House, 1950; later editions until the 1985 Bridge edition have identical page numbering.
    - Dianetics the Evolution of a Science, 1950; AOSH DK Publications, Denmark, 1972.
    - Dianetics the Original Thesis, 1951; Scientology Publications Organization, Denmark, 1970.
    - Hubbard Dianetics Auditor Course, Bridge, L.A., 1988
    - Hubbard Dianetics Seminar, Bridge, L.A., 1988
    - Research and Discovery Series:
    volume 1, lectures June 1950; Bridge, 1980.
    volume 2, lectures July - August 1950; Bridge, 1982.
    volume 3, lectures 10 August-8 September, 1950; Bridge, 1982.
    volume 4, lectures 23 September-15 November 1950; Bridge, 1982 .
    - Science of Survival, 1951; Hubbard College of Scientology, 1967.
    - The Technical Bulletins of Dianetics and Scientology, 1979.
    Miller, Russell - Bare-Faced Messiah, Henry Holt, NY or 1987.
    Wolfe, Bernard and Rosenthal, Raymond - Hypnotism Comes of Age, Blue Ribbon Books, NY, 1949.
    Young, L.E. - 25 Lessons in Hypnotism, Padell Book Co, NY, 1944.
    abbreviations used in the text:
    AstSF - Astounding Science Fiction, May 1950
    DMSMH - Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health
    DTOT - Dianetics the Original Thesis
    EoS - Dianetics the Evolution of a Science
    R&D - Research and Discovery, followed by volume number
    SOS - Science of Survival, followed by volume I or II

    Jon Atack went on with hundreds of examples of statements by Hubbard regarding hypnosis. I have examined hypnosis as it is not presented by professional hypnotists and in many videos and articles and several books.

    Hubbard despite his contradictory statements and merging of ideas from hypnosis with other plagiarized ideas clearly took many of the ideas almost unchanged from hypnosis.

    I will add a few other Hubbard quotes to demonstrate his knowledge regarding hypnosis.

    From a tape on The Philadelphia Doctorate Course lectures


    Structure/Function: 11 December 1952 page 1
    „All processes are based upon the original observation
    that an individual could have implanted in him by hypnosis
    and removed at will any obsession or aberration,
    compulsion, desire, inhibition which you could think of – by hypnosis.“
    Hypnosis, then, was the wild variable;
    sometimes it worked,
    sometimes it didn’t work.
    It worked on some people; it didn’t work on other people.
    Any time you have a variable that is as wild as this, study it.
    Well, I had a high certainty already –
    I had survival. Got that in 1938 or before that. And uh…


    Originally Posted by FORREST J. ACKERMAN about the 29 April 1948
    "Well, 45 years ago there was established a Los Angeles Science Fiction Society. I'm a charter member. I was at the very first meeting and I've been to 1500 meetings off and on in between.
    It was a period when Ron came around our club. He was living in Los Angeles. And what I particularly remember about his appearances there was an evening of spectacular hypnostism when hypnotized just about every kid in the club.
    I remember he gave one young man a... what would you call it... In any event, the boy was convinced that cupped in his hand, he held a little tiny Kangaroo that was hopping around and I remember he came over and showed the Kangaroo to me.

    Originally Posted by
    Dec 1952 Philadelphia Doctorate Course
    There’s nothing every very weird about hypnotism.
    It is the easiest thing in the world. ..
    „All right, now you stare at the candle, stare at the candle.
    Now uh… you know that concentration of that sort can make you for… sort of sleepy and so on.You stare at the candle until you feel that.“
    And he’ll say, „All right.“ See he’s agreed that concentration on that can make him sleep.
    All right, … let’s look at this candle a little… a little closer and
    now let’s feel… let’s feel the… the… the body becoming more and more relaxed. And, he agrees to feel that the body is becoming more and more relaxed.
    That’s all there is to that. He… he just agrees little by little,
    the next thing you know the hypnotist says, „
    Now your eyes will close.“ And his eyes go bonk. Of course, he agreed to that.
    Now, the hypnotist says, „
    Now your right hand will rise.“ And with some slight amazement, this fellow watches his right hand come up.
    And he says, „Wooo, I’m hypnotized.“ So he just gives it up then,
    and the hypnotist now says, „
    Now you see that kangaroo on your right knee?“
    „Yes.“ He sees the kangaroo on his right knee.
    Now take it on your right knee.
    “Now let’s see it jump over to the left knee.
    Now you got that? All right,
    now let’s put… let’s put a… uh… a bonnet on this kangaroo. Got the bonnet on it?
    Now have the kangaroo sing a song
    .“ And the hypnotized person is very happy to sit there and watch this.

    Conclusion: between literally hundreds of remarks by Hubbard one can compare to the materials on hypnosis itself (which I have personally done) and numerous accounts by contemporaries of Hubbard detailing his use and research with hypnosis (Jon Atack has catalogued far more evidence than the meager examples I presented as examples here if you are unconvinced) we have in my opinion more than sufficient evidence to support the claim that Ron Hubbard had studied hypnosis to a very significant degree and was familiar with many of the practices and principles used in the subject.
  5. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I don't believe anyone (around here) will disagree with your conclusion MB ... it's well known that he flirted with hypnotism. Apparently he was an explorer, photographer, musician, an astonishing singer, philosopher, artist, sailor, author and nuclear scientist too ... he was whatever he wanted to be on any given day (apparently he didn't want to be a good father or husband though) and we all encouraged, enabled and sanctioned his delusions.

    If it makes you happy to believe that he was an amazing world wide hypnotist (and he must have been if he achieved what you believe he achieved) and that you personally were hypnotised you won't get any argument from me.

    I was not hypnotised. I was just a silly arse that got myself entangled in a cult created by a mentally unstable liar and con man who perhaps really believed that he had all the answers ... mentally unstable people often believe things that are ridiculous, it's part of the condition.
    freethinker, ThetanExterior and Gib like this.
  6. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    for me, I feel I was just a fool who fell for hubbard's rhetoric:

    The problem with doing a rhetorical analysis of hubbard and his brainchild is that he wrote and lectured so much it's almost impossible. It's takes lots of research and to explain.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
  7. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    I don't think that there are any hypnotic induction techniques in Dianetic auditing.

    Going "earlier similar and earlier similar" will eventually cause the brain to create dopamine for stress relief.
    The prefrontal cortex will then have a positive thought (i.e. "cognition").

    That's my 2 cents opinion/hypothesis. :)
  8. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    I don't understand the point of this thread. Maybe someone can clarify it for me?

    The opening post seems to be trying to prove that hypnosis is not outdated yet there is no reference as to who said it is outdated. I would have thought most people already know it isn't outdated therefore that post seems to be unnecessary.

    The second post by mockingbird seems to be trying to prove that Hubbard knew how to use hypnosis. Again, most people already know this and don't disagree with it, as far as I know, so what is the point of that post?

    Are we leading up to a third post that will say that hypnosis isn't outdated and Hubbard knew how to use it therefore he hypnotised us all? If so, I expect a shitstorm is on its way.
  9. mockingbird

    mockingbird Silver Meritorious Patron

    Claim: You cannot know the intention of Ron Hubbard. Some people forward this claim and believe Hubbard was alternating between good and evil or that he lied or contradicted himself too much to be deciphered or that Scientology is too filled with contradictions to be understood.

    Fact: Hubbard was a pathological liar and frequently contradicted himself. That is true. He also had behavior that can be compared against his statements and we can decipher his true intentions from the combination of his claims AND behavior and his private communication.

    Supporting Evidence: Hubbard made statements in his affirmations (private self-hypnosis commands intended for himself and no one else) that I call the Rosetta Stone of Scientology because they help ex Scientologists decipher the information in Scientology.

    I have them posted at Mockingbird's Nest as
    A Psychiatric View With Comments On The Admissions By Lafayette Ronald Hubbard (1947)

    I will put a few excerpts here to highlight Hubbard's intention regarding hypnosis and in general. To understand Scientology I absolutely recommend reading the post in full. These excerpts are just for this post on his intentions.

    LRH is obviously L Ron Hubbard

    LRH:Your psychology is good. You worked to darken your own children. This failure, with them, was only apparent. The evident lack of effectiveness was "ordered." The same psychology works perfectly on everyone else. You use it with great confidence.

    LRH: Material things are yours for the asking. Men are your slaves. Elemental spirits are your slaves. You are power among powers, light in the darkness, beauty in all.

    LRH : Your psychology is advanced and true and wonderful. It hypnotizes people. It predicts their emotions, for you are their ruler.

    LRH: No matter what lies you may tell others they have no physical effect on you of any kind.

    LRH: Lord help women when you begin to fondle them. You are master of their bodies, master of their souls as you may consciously wish. You have no karma to pay for these acts.

    LRH: You can tell all the romantic tales you wish. You will remember them, you do remember them. But you know which ones were lies. You are so logical you will tell nothing which cannot be believed.

    LRH: You use the minds of men. They do not use your mind or affect it in any way.

    So, Hubbard in his private affirmations clearly described his "psychology" as such that it "hypnotizes" people and that men are his slaves and regarding women that he was master of their bodies and souls. He described himself as being able to lie and be both believed and he was immune to physical effects from his lies. He described himself as the ruler of people who uses the minds of men but they do not use or affect his mind.

    Imagine having these goals and using self-hypnosis commands repeatedly for years to bring these things into your mind.

    To gain more insight into Hubbard's intention I want to quote a letter he wrote to his wife Polly, who he called Skipper and it has come to be known as "The Skipper Letter" among Scientology watchers. It was written in 1938 after Hubbard allegedly wrote a manuscript entitled Excalibur that he hoped would give him fame.

    "Living is a pretty grim joke, but a joke just the same. The entire function of man is to survive. The outermost limit of endeavour is creative work. Anything less is too close to simple survival until death happens along. So I am engaged in striving to maintain equilibrium sufficient to at least realize survival in a way to astound the gods. I turned the thing up so it's up to me to survive in a big way . . . Foolishly perhaps, but determined none the less, I have high hopes of smashing my name into history so violently that it will take a legendary form even if all books are destroyed. That goal is the real goal as far as I am concerned. Things which stand too consistently in its way make me nervous. It’s a pretty big job. In a hundred years Roosevelt will have been forgotten — which gives some idea of the magnitude of my attempt. And all this boils and froths inside my head and I’m miserable when I am blocked.”

    Here is a small excerpt from the article What Motivated L. Ron Hubbard? Historian Jon Atack Follows the Clues (posted at The Underground Bunker blog on August 26, 2013

    Hubbard added that he was going to “make Napoleon look like a punk” in comparison to the fame he would come to enjoy.
    So, “Excalibur” was not about spiritual immortality, or spiritual anything. Hubbard felt that he had made contact with some underlying force in the universe, and that he was the only person ever so to do, but he wanted to exploit that force not for the good of the world (which finds no mention anywhere in this five-page letter), but to “smash” his name into history.
    Believers will say that Hubbard changed his mind, but at the very end of his life, there is a telling confirmation of his “only goal.” When Hubbard dropped his body, almost fifty years later, he had failed to spend $648 million of the monies he’d extracted from the Dev-OTs. A paltry million went to the wife who had endured prison to protect him, far less to his surviving children. But half a billion dollars went to the Church of Spiritual Technology, which lists as its corporate purpose, “To perpetuate the name L. Ron Hubbard.” Not the “technology,” just the name, please note. end quote Jon Atack
    Okay, it seems pretty clear to me that Hubbard wanted to control people by enslaving men via his lies, psychology and hypnosis and to control the souls and bodies of women by similar means.
    He gave us strong evidence in word and deeds that he sought these goals in life and fame in death.

    But I can add a bit more from his vast collection of statements in Scientology doctrine.
    Regarding wanting to control people with his lies and psychology that hypnotizes people:

    Quotes from Ron Hubbard on the Confusion Technique:
  10. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    I take back everything I have ever said on this subject because I've just discovered a very old (previously unseen) tape of hubbard practicing for world domination using (wait for it) his incredible and astonishing skill as a hypnotist!


    WARNING: Please look at this tape at your own risk (ideally with your eyes slightly out of focus and scrunched together) ... Oh, and for goodness sake make sure your wallet and credit cards are locked away safely because tubs hubbard was very, VERY effective.

  11. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    An astonishing singer?

    What f'n drugs are you on?

  12. I told you I was trouble

    I told you I was trouble Suspended animation

    Well, I was certainly astonished when I heard him sing (and distressed, appalled and disturbed).

  13. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    I'd say you got that right Trubs.
  14. strativarius

    strativarius Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband

    I see on the image it says - by 'L Ron Hubbard and friends'. I didn't know he had any 'friends', and by that I mean real friends. Did he? Who were his closest scientology friends, people whose company he actually sought out?
    lotus and Gib like this.
  15. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    from my research, his earliest friends were Campbell, Heinlein, Dr Winter, names of note I guess.

    A little later on were John Galusha, and a bunch from old St Hill, namely Alan Walters.

    of course, they all blew off from Hubbard. Interesting that his earliest friends are gone and wanted nothing to do with hubbard.

    LRH Hubbard and friends, just another rhetorical gimmick just like we used think LRH was mankinds greatest friend,


    I'm surprised DM hasn't stated he is mankinds greatest friend just below hubbard, laughing.
  16. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    I recall when the album was released and we were called to listen to it

    Seriously, the cult Guru, the God, the Buddha , the one who was chosen to know the knowledge and To reveal 6 the Truth to us... Was singing...

    OMG :eek:

    Some people listen To Ron in awe almost in trance and extasy.
    (May be this was hypnotic :D)..few other were as VGI's as when they completed OT3...

    It was the 1st real time my guts screamed desperately at me it was a freak show and the guy des a fuc***g crazy retard ....

    [justify]This is the time we shall have escaped .....very far...:eek:[/justify]
    tesseract likes this.
  17. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    When I was freshly out of the Sea Org (less than two years), I had a job with a contractor and got into a bad relationship with another employee there.

    He hypnotized me. That is so embarrassing to admit, I can't even believe I'm writing this, but I think bald honesty is needed when it comes to Scientology.

    I was susceptible because I had just come out of a mind-controlling cult that I'd been in for nine years.

    In short, first the a - hole that I'd dated scammed me into lending me his credit card, then I fortunately wised up before he'd completely maxed it out and canceled it and even got the company to lean on him and the man to agree to have it taken out of his pay and you know what happened next?

    To this day, I'm stunned, but

    He acted all upset and like he was so broke and sorry and asked me to go to lunch with him and hit me up for more money and I gave it to him. Not a lot, but still!!!! :angry:

    I was a single parent! Struggling! :wtf: was I thinking???

    My boss asked me, too, :wtf: ???

    I couldn't even explain. I wasn't attracted to him anymore, that wasn't it. At the lunch, he had a certain way of talking and saying all the right things, pushing the right buttons and touching my arm at the right moments, though, and maybe he even drugged me, I can't say, but I can tell you I am 100% sure I was hypnotized. I had gone to that lunch determined to tell him off and gave the a hole money instead?!?!?! I was in a daze afterwards, did not know how that happened! REALLY!! I had NO intention of giving that jerk any money!

    That was such a wake-up call to me. Especially when his brother told me that this man had dated THREE people who had left Scientology and scammed them all and laughed about it.

    Embarassing, yeh, but we were in a trance as Scientologists. We didn't see things the way they were and it took a long time to see the world in front of us afterwards.
    The_Fixer likes this.
  18. The_Fixer

    The_Fixer Class Clown

    Kudos to you for fessing up to it Sheila.
  19. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    Before I got into scientology I went to a hypnotherapist to try to resolve a problem. He sat me down in his office, did all the hypnosis stuff and told me my eyes were getting heavy and so on. But every time I felt myself going under the influence I puilled myself out. Eventually he said he couldn't hypnotise me so I left.

    Another time I was in a theatre audience to see a stage hypnotist. He asked everyone in the audience to put their hands together and interlock their fingers. Then he said we wouldn't be able to unlock our fingers. Well I just pulled mine apart easily but a lot of people couldn't do it and some of those were invited onto the stage to take part in the hypnosis show.

    I then spent 15+ years in scientology, not being hypnotised but being deceived. Hubbard was a master of deception more than hypnosis.
    Wilbur and The_Fixer like this.
  20. AD1950

    AD1950 Patron