Scientology, Ron Hubbard and Hypnosis

[PirateAndBum]

CCH1-4 are hypnotic processes

 

[pineapple]

Hypnotism has to be reinforced or it wears off.

True. I worked with a guy who saw a hypnotist to quit smoking. He went from smoking 20 cigarettes a day to zero, overnight. We were all very impressed. He was supposed to go back again for reinforcement but never did because he thought he didn't need it. He eventually started smoking again, after maybe a year.

On the other hand, hypnotist George Estabrooks mentions a post-hypnotic suggestion he installed that was still working 30 years later! He'd conditioned the subject to yell, "The British are coming! The British are coming!" in response to a certain trigger and it still worked after all that time. (Don't remember where I read this. If I can find it I'll post it.)

Hypnotists vary in ability and subjects vary in susceptibility. Not everyone responds in the same way or to the same degree.

 

[pineapple]

McGill can stuff it.

I am an auditor.

Use of hypnosis in auditing was expressly forbidden in my training nor have I ever used it and NO the processing itself is NOT inherently hypnotic.

Policy...

The way policy gets practiced...

Maybe there is some measure of induction of trance state but you couldn't prove it by me.

I did NOT see induction of trance state either as public or staff

As an auditor, you must have run R3R (dianetics). Would you say your pc's were in a light trance? Or some maybe not so light? Did you ever see a pc who acted out the incident as they ran it? If they were swimming or climbing in the incident they made the appropriate motions? Their faces changed with the emotions in the incident? (Most didn't do this, but some did. My guess is maybe one in five.)

If you ran dianetics as a pc, don't you think you were in a light trance yourself? Such as you might experience while falling asleep and seeing hypnagogic hallucinations?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnagogia

Post-hypnotic suggestions don't have to be made while the subject is in trance, you know (though it's preferable). Once trance has been achieved, they can be given with the subject in a waking state. So you get put into a light trance, then after you come out of it you get bombarded with scn propaganda about auditors being "the most valuable beings on the planet," LRH being man's greatest friend, KSW bullshit, etc.

 

[Gib]

How can you say that ? What is the basis of that claim ?

Hubbard's very first auditor was John Campbell and the second was Dr Winter. Both left a year or two later.

Hubbard and Campbell tried to get Heinlein involved, but he had a wait and see stance although interested. He thought deep down it was rhetoric although he never stated it. But he did state sounds like rhetoric.

 

[Gib]

CCH1-4 are hypnotic processes

How do you explain this, my personal experience when I was fully in.

I was just beginning Grade 1 and the new coaudit for the CCH's and Objectives had come out. I was regged to do this coaudit and I had asked how long because I really want to do Grade 1, I was given the answer of a hundred hours, myself saying to himmself WTF, but since my twin was a good bud, and since CCH's and Objectives are part of Grade 1, I said OK. They found new process's to run to fully get one in PT.

So in Dec 2011, I get the Debbie Cook email, 12/31/2011. We were about almost done with the coaudit.

I was ecstatic getting that email, because I thought something was wrong with all the regging for the basics, ideal orgs, etc.

So at that time, I started researching the internet.

3 months go by and we finally finish the coaudit and I kept it a secret I was researching, I was shitting in my pants during the time but I had to know.

We did 178 hours each of these process's, each receiving and giving for 356 hours. I don't know how many hours of the CCH's but a lot, maybe 20 each.

After we finished, I said no more and I sort of quit.

So if the CCH's are hypnosis, how come I quit?

After more time and researching I started posting here on ESMB, I think in the middle of 2012.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Hubbard's very first auditor was John Campbell and the second was Dr Winter. Both left a year or two later.

Hubbard and Campbell tried to get Heinlein involved, but he had a wait and see stance although interested. He thought deep down it was rhetoric although he never stated it. But he did state sounds like rhetoric.

Nah, it was Cmdr Snake Thompson. I heard he ran a process on young Ron, feel my snake...

 

[mockingbird]

Hubbard's very first auditor was John Campbell and the second was Dr Winter. Both left a year or two later.

Hubbard and Campbell tried to get Heinlein involved, but he had a wait and see stance although interested. He thought deep down it was rhetoric although he never stated it. But he did state sounds like rhetoric.

So, are you saying one person or two believe that Dianetics is rhetoric. Now we have to be careful. Rhetoric has multiple definitions. One is ANY influence by any name and by any method.

Obviously hypnosis is PART of that. Another definition is the methods of logos, pathos and ethos as defined by ancient philosophers including several Greeks and also sublime writing and art as they included that.

If you want to say any effort to influence people is part of the broadest possible definition of rhetoric well that is the meaning of the word, so it must be.

But if you limit it to the exact methods described by the old school philosophers that is another matter.

 

[PirateAndBum]

How do you explain this, my personal experience when I was fully in.

I was just beginning Grade 1 and the new coaudit for the CCH's and Objectives had come out. I was regged to do this coaudit and I had asked how long because I really want to do Grade 1, I was given the answer of a hundred hours, myself saying to himmself WTF, but since my twin was a good bud, and since CCH's and Objectives are part of Grade 1, I said OK. They found new process's to run to fully get one in PT.

So in Dec 2011, I get the Debbie Cook email, 12/31/2011. We were about almost done with the coaudit.

I was ecstatic getting that email, because I thought something was wrong with all the regging for the basics, ideal orgs, etc.

So at that time, I started researching the internet.

3 months go by and we finally finish the coaudit and I kept it a secret I was researching, I was shitting in my pants during the time but I had to know.

We did 178 hours each of these process's, each receiving and giving for 356 hours. I don't know how many hours of the CCH's but a lot, maybe 20 each.

After we finished, I said no more and I sort of quit.

So if the CCH's are hypnosis, how come I quit?

Well Gib, you were already fully under the spell and in such cases overrunning of CCHs tend to produce the opposite effect. This has been thoroughly researched and found to be invariably true. Trust me

 

[Gib]

Nah, it was Cmdr Snake Thompson. I heard he ran a process on young Ron, fell my snake...

no I meant Hubbard's first trained auditor that he himmself trained. Hubbard also audited Campbell and Dr winter.

 

[mockingbird]

Hypnosis as Hubbard noted works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. It works on some people but not others. On those it does work it often wears off. On those it does work a process ie technique may make them happy and suggestible one day but not work on another. It is notoriously inconsistent.

Even modern believers in hypnosis like NLP users admit it doesn't work on everyone and that if altitude is lost or rapport is lost or trust is lost you lose the ability to influence the subject.


Even the NLP veterans who sell books and videos admit that they fail with some people and if you dig into their literature they admit that none of their techniques are certain or permanent in effect.

 

[mockingbird]

How do you explain this, my personal experience when I was fully in.

I was just beginning Grade 1 and the new coaudit for the CCH's and Objectives had come out. I was regged to do this coaudit and I had asked how long because I really want to do Grade 1, I was given the answer of a hundred hours, myself saying to himmself WTF, but since my twin was a good bud, and since CCH's and Objectives are part of Grade 1, I said OK. They found new process's to run to fully get one in PT.

So in Dec 2011, I get the Debbie Cook email, 12/31/2011. We were about almost done with the coaudit.

I was ecstatic getting that email, because I thought something was wrong with all the regging for the basics, ideal orgs, etc.

So at that time, I started researching the internet.

3 months go by and we finally finish the coaudit and I kept it a secret I was researching, I was shitting in my pants during the time but I had to know.

We did 178 hours each of these process's, each receiving and giving for 356 hours. I don't know how many hours of the CCH's but a lot, maybe 20 each.

After we finished, I said no more and I sort of quit.

So if the CCH's are hypnosis, how come I quit?

After more time and researching I started posting here on ESMB, I think in the middle of 2012.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Hypnosis as Hubbard noted works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. It works on some people but not others. On those it does work it often wears off. On those it does work a process ie technique may make them happy and suggestible one day but not work on another. It is notoriously inconsistent.

Even modern believers in hypnosis like NLP users admit it doesn't work on everyone and that if altitude is lost or rapport is lost or trust is lost you lose the ability to influence the subject.


Even the NLP veterans who sell books and videos admit that they fail with some people and if you dig into their literature they admit that none of their techniques are certain or permanent in effect.

Why are you pushing it so much (here) then, if the above is true?

 

[PirateAndBum]

Why are you pushing it so much (here) then, if the above is true?

Look into my eyes... You're feeling hypnotized... Believe.... Believe!!

 

[PirateAndBum]

Obviously. Technical datum #231: Number of times over equals certainty

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Look into my eyes... You're feeling hypnotized... Believe.... Believe!!

You are being very naughty recently (don't think we haven't noticed!).

 

[mockingbird]

Hypnosis is not a magic ray that automatically makes you into a Manchurian candidate with no free will. I do not know if you were hypnotized as all the literature and experts say a certain percentage of people are not hypnotized no matter what you do. There are also some people who are somewhat suggestible but not as much as others.

There are many variations and possibilities. That is why it is difficult for people to understand. They either want hypnosis to work perfectly one hundred percent of the time or not at all and all the studies by all the experts do not agree with either of those options.

My best suggestion for figuring out if hypnosis happened to you in Scientology is for you to extensively study hypnosis and then look at your own experiences for yourself.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Plus you're just being true to your own name, causing trouble, trouble

Keep it up :yay

 

[PirateAndBum]

You are being very naughty recently (don't think we haven't noticed!).

Observation of the obvious! Hip hip hoooray!

lol

I am feeling rather puckish. Must have been the spaghetti...

I favor the "I've been conned" rationale over the I've been hypnotized explanation.

 

[Gib]

Well Gib, you were already fully under the spell and in such cases overrunning of CCHs tend to produce the opposite effect. This has been thoroughly researched and found to be invariably true. Trust me

Here's the rest of the story, too funny Pirate, after we finished the coaudit, a few months later the org calls me, and my twin calls me cuz he wants to twin with me, to do the New Survival Rundown. I'm like are you fucking kidding me, I just spent a year doing the CCH's/Objectives new rundown, for a god damn year, every weekend going into the org, paying for parking, paying for lunches, paying for gas, spending my weekend time, and for what, they said new process's. WTF.

I said no, but they tried to convince me.

BTW, I'm not declared or anything, still get promo and letters, LOL

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Hypnosis is not a magic ray that automatically makes you into a Manchurian candidate with no free will. I do not know if you were hypnotized as all the literature and experts say a certain percentage of people are not hypnotized no matter what you do. There are also some people who are somewhat suggestible but not as much as others.

There are many variations and possibilities. That is why it is difficult for people to understand. They either want hypnosis to work perfectly one hundred percent of the time or not at all and all the studies by all the experts do not agree with either of those options.

My best suggestion for figuring out if hypnosis happened to you in Scientology is for you to extensively study hypnosis and then look at your own experiences for yourself.

Perhaps for many of us it just doesn't matter MB ... I personally couldn't care less why I got involved, I'm just happy I found the courage to finally leave, though I do regret not doing it decades earlier when I wanted to and didn't for family reasons.

Anyway, on the basis of post number 190 I'm happy to agree with you that there is a possibility that some people were hypnotised.