Scientology, Ron Hubbard and Hypnosis

[mockingbird]

As far as the book I mentioned, I am more interested in the philosophy on which the author's works are based upon.

Self-realization and awareness can be the result of the eventual therapy, but I don't see how there can be transference or hypnosis if the goal is to know oneself, thus awakening.

"THE CONTEXT OF QUANTUM PSYCHOLOGY
In India, there are two major approaches to self-realization, Advaita and Vedanta. Advaita, or non-dual awareness, means that there’s only one substance, not two or more substances, in other words, non-duality. The most workable definition of Vedanta can best be expressed as, realizing who you are through discarding all you think or imagine yourself to be. In short, not this/not this or neti-neti in Sanskrit. The Vedas are considered the most sacred texts of India. Vedanta means the end of the Vedas.
THE PURPOSE OF QUANTUM PSYCHOLOGY
Quantum Psychology is different from other forms of modern- day psychology because it has a different purpose and a different aim, that of discovering WHO YOU ARE. The preliminary and preparatory stages are developed by dismantling (neti-neti) what is called your False Core-False Self and acquiring multi-dimensional awareness. [bcolor=#ffffff]" [/bcolor]

The purpose in hypnosis is in my opinion irrelevant. I see it as a reaction to stimuli. Certain stimuli experiences by some people in the adequate frame of mind induce reactions. These reactions are not subject to intentions. Intentions are desired outcomes.

Plainly doing some things to some people in some circumstances produces certain results. The intention of the participants is irrelevant. If I shoot a person with a gun and intend love to heal them the result of shooting them is the same as if I wanted to hurt them.

many forms of trance induction are not called hypnosis by the people using or receiving them. The name is irrelevant to the result.

Thinking that the intention or purpose behind an action influences the result is a form of magical thinking. It is similar to thinking that intention is cause or postulates can change hypnosis to awakening people from hypnosis based on postulates. It simply is not an idea that is supported by science.

 

[mockingbird]

As far as the book I mentioned, I am more interested in the philosophy on which the author's works are based upon.

Self-realization and awareness can be the result of the eventual therapy, but I don't see how there can be transference or hypnosis if the goal is to know oneself, thus awakening.

"THE CONTEXT OF QUANTUM PSYCHOLOGY
In India, there are two major approaches to self-realization, Advaita and Vedanta. Advaita, or non-dual awareness, means that there’s only one substance, not two or more substances, in other words, non-duality. The most workable definition of Vedanta can best be expressed as, realizing who you are through discarding all you think or imagine yourself to be. In short, not this/not this or neti-neti in Sanskrit. The Vedas are considered the most sacred texts of India. Vedanta means the end of the Vedas.
THE PURPOSE OF QUANTUM PSYCHOLOGY
Quantum Psychology is different from other forms of modern- day psychology because it has a different purpose and a different aim, that of discovering WHO YOU ARE. The preliminary and preparatory stages are developed by dismantling (neti-neti) what is called your False Core-False Self and acquiring multi-dimensional awareness. [bcolor=#ffffff]" [/bcolor]

Really to understand transference one should examine transference in psychology and hypnosis. It is worth learning about in its own right.

 

[mockingbird]

With all due respect mockingbird,

People don't need we recommend the one or other therapies, since you and I ate not psychologist authority. We certainly can recommend readings , provides our opinions, insight, but this is it.

They can seek expert advices with specialists in these matters

Medical hypnosis is a field of practice I have known all my life ( won't provide infos here for anonymity purpose) and I never comment on this as an authoritative figure which I am not. I still question myself on the subject in general.

Although I can say that I uses self hypnosis to allow me to cope with a severe PTSD till I can access a specific somatic therapy. It has some good and some bad and it depends of the condition we are trying to address and what we expect. Same for pure meditation as it induces a sort of deep trance to see and observe phenomanons from a different pov.

One should be informed and consult experts for any sort of therapies instead of taking people's advice on message boards.

There are certain forms of therapy like auditing that I have found to be harmful. I have no degree but that should not limit my responsibility to warn people if I have found something to be harmful. I am not a medical doctor but I recommend against drinking bleach, despite my lack of a degree.

Many forms of therapy have had similar problems with transference and dependence on the practitioner with heightened suggestibility in the patients. I have studied this and found that the tendency is for a new therapy based on hypnosis to appear and several practitioners rave about their results. Then others use and examine the therapy and realize that it is not helping as much as promised but instead is leaving patients more dependent than they were at the beginning.

People who are aware of the history and liabilities of practices can warn people, even if they are not experts. I have an obligation to warn people about the therapy in Trances People Live because I feel it has the same pattern of using hypnosis but promising to solve the flaws that n hypnosis without any scientific evidence it has done this. The Quantum Psychology promoted by the author never caught on as he wished it would.

 

[phenomanon]

How about if we called it "blatant use of covert hypnosis"?

That's what I would call it.

 

[lotus]

Auditing is not a therapy..has never been and never considered to be so by any authority.

Auditing have been considered as being part of processed used on $cientology fraudulent cult followers to achieved other goals than healing a condition shall be expected from undergoing a psychological therapy.

Auditing is not a therapy; it is a system that promise to make yourself a clear and then an OT which do not exist; It is not a psychological therapy it is a fraudulent hack!

Like you , I warn people on fraudulent hacks that I well know of like Scientology. Indeed this is different than advising about psychological therapies I don't consider you neither me to be competent in doing so.

Although we have right to free speech so you can use it has you wish and people, upon being told you are not a psychological competent authority, may decide to either follow or not your advices
(Based on ????????)

 

[lotus]

Although if you have scientific papers or studies results, to share about such therapies, I consider
This to be of great public service!

Then, people can make good use of their critical thinking.

 

[lotus]

As far as the book I mentioned, I am more interested in the philosophy on which the author's works are based upon.

Self-realization and awareness can be the result of the eventual therapy,

This is what I understood and maintains the philosophical concepts deserved to be examined.

The mindfulness practice, now recognized as a wonderfull practice to avoid toxic stress and extremes emotions is based on some of these concepts. Mindfulness practice is now , after years of experimentations, studies, used in psychotherapies and many therapist teach it to their clients.

That was a good sharing , and I personally found nothing dammageable in reading it! It provides a good simple insight of complex buddhism and hindouism concepts.

(I sware I haven't been hypnotized.. Lol)

 

[I told you I was trouble]

So far I have learned from this endless discussion that some people are going through life in a trance (TBH I already knew that) other people are apparently hypnotised at the drop of a hat (ie while watching TV or listening passively to a radio) and many others ... aren't.

Could joining a cult, being in session occasionally, doing TR's now and again, listening to hubbard tapes or reading endless policy letters hypnotise someone who is already that way inclined ... yes, apparently it could.

Cool.

I prefer to remain in the moment as much as possible and I always have ... life seems better that way.

 

[programmer_guy]

Hypnotic induction techniques are supposed to induce a mental/brain state of "trance".
I never experienced a state of trance during Scientology auditing.

Also, was I hypnotized in class during my elementary school years as a student?
When a parent teaches their child "don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal" does this involve hypnosis?

(Again, I am not defending Scientology.)

@Dulloldfart Do you have a position/opinion on this about auditing?

 

[Me and My Self]

People who are aware of the history and liabilities of practices can warn people, even if they are not experts. I have an obligation to warn people about the therapy in Trances People Live because I feel it has the same pattern of using hypnosis but promising to solve the flaws that n hypnosis without any scientific evidence it has done this. The Quantum Psychology promoted by the author never caught on as he wished it would.

I agree with all that you posted except for your statements "promising to solve the flaws" and "never caught on as he wished it would". I understand you are specifically speaking of Trances book, however the one I referenced is the root of it all (and I did so for the very same reasons as you might have, especially when I saw the "TM" after the QP name, and included the author's website for a broader overview and more elements for analysis of the whole in regard to the book you recommended.
In the "Beginners Guide" he states clearly that QP doesn't work for everyone nor he promises anything as to solutions.

 

[mockingbird]

I agree with all that you posted except for your statements "promising to solve the flaws" and "never caught on as he wished it would". I understand you are specifically speaking of Trances book, however the one I referenced is the root of it all (and I did so for the very same reasons as you might have, especially when I saw the "TM" after the QP name, and included the author's website for a broader overview and more elements for analysis of the whole in regard to the book you recommended.
In the "Beginners Guide" he states clearly that QP doesn't work for everyone nor he promises anything as to solutions.

If you have scientific evidence that anyone has ever solved the problem of transference in hypnotic techniques that is of high quality I would be extremely interested in seeing it. To my knowledge no one has produced high quality peer reviewed studies or other significant evidence of any hypnotic techniques that are completely free from transference issues.

Regarding quantum psychology never catching on the practice to my knowledge is not widely accepted or practiced. If you have evidence that contradicts this please present it.

In the book Trances People Live the author very clearly explains his belief that he has overcome the transference issue but on this matter his argument is to me unconvincing.

 

[mockingbird]

Hypnotic induction techniques are supposed to induce a mental/brain state of "trance".
I never experienced a state of trance during Scientology auditing.

Also, was I hypnotized in class during my elementary school years as a student?
When a parent teaches their child "don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal" does this involve hypnosis?

(Again, I am not defending Scientology.)

@Dulloldfart Do you have a position/opinion on this about auditing?

As I have said repeatedly - every school of hypnosis I have ever seen has the idea that some people are apparently unable to be hypnotized while others are easy to hypnotize. I don't know if you are even capable of being hypnotized so I cannot tell you if you ever were.

if you have an interest in hypnosis why not watch YouTube videos or read a book or read some articles ? I don't want every thread I post to turn into getting asked every possible question about every possible situation. I would rather inspire people to pursue their own education and then form their own educated opinion on the subject.

 

[mockingbird]

Auditing is not a therapy..has never been and never considered to be so by any authority.

Auditing have been considered as being part of processed used on $cientology fraudulent cult followers to achieved other goals than healing a condition shall be expected from undergoing a psychological therapy.

Auditing is not a therapy; it is a system that promise to make yourself a clear and then an OT which do not exist; It is not a psychological therapy it is a fraudulent hack!

Like you , I warn people on fraudulent hacks that I well know of like Scientology. Indeed this is different than advising about psychological therapies I don't consider you neither me to be competent in doing so.

Although we have right to free speech so you can use it has you wish and people, upon being told you are not a psychological competent authority, may decide to either follow or not your advices
(Based on ????????)

I have a disclaimer at my blog stating that I have no college education. If anyone here doesn't know from my posts on my biography I am willing to tell them I have no degree.

Regarding auditing as therapy I consider it a fraud and sham but understand it is treated as a therapy by Scientologists and some people outside Scientology so I warn them it is harmful.

 

[mockingbird]

Auditing is not a therapy..has never been and never considered to be so by any authority.

Auditing have been considered as being part of processed used on $cientology fraudulent cult followers to achieved other goals than healing a condition shall be expected from undergoing a psychological therapy.

Auditing is not a therapy; it is a system that promise to make yourself a clear and then an OT which do not exist; It is not a psychological therapy it is a fraudulent hack!

Like you , I warn people on fraudulent hacks that I well know of like Scientology. Indeed this is different than advising about psychological therapies I don't consider you neither me to be competent in doing so.

Although we have right to free speech so you can use it has you wish and people, upon being told you are not a psychological competent authority, may decide to either follow or not your advices
(Based on ????????)

There are lots of things we don't have degrees in but can warn people about. You have to use your own judgement. If I see things in other practices that are similar to the harmful elements in Scientology I am not going to meekly say "well, I don't have a degree so that thing I spent hundreds of hours researching and wrote to experts and read lots of books on is something I cannot comment on." If I feel it would be immoral to not warn people I would rather warn them and be criticized than fail to warn them. th

Sometimes people say "only an authority can comment on that." Is this a rule handed down from God ?

You can comment on anything.

 

[programmer_guy]

<snip>

if you have an interest in hypnosis why not watch YouTube videos or read a book or read some articles ?
<snip>

Yes, I had done that years ago.

Why do you assume that I am ignorant because I don't agree with you?
(I don't assume that you are ignorant because you don't agree with me.)

Way back when this hypothesis was brought up I didn't have an opinion either way and was willing to consider it.
IOW, on this particular item, I did not have a cognitive bias either way.

 

[mockingbird]

Yes, I had done that years ago.

Why do you assume that I am ignorant because I don't agree with you?
(I don't assume that you are ignorant because you don't agree with me.)

Way back when this hypothesis was brought up I didn't have an opinion either way and was willing to consider it.
IOW, on this particular item, I did not have a cognitive bias either way.

I am not assuming you are ignorant. You keep asking me questions that a slight study of hypnosis would answer. The answers are in the most basic materials for several of your questions.

What would you do if someone kept asking you to do basic addition ? Suggesting they study arithmetic is not out of the question.

 

[Me and My Self]

In the "Beginners Guide" he states clearly that QP doesn't work for everyone nor he promises anything as to solutions.

Sorry here is the quote I refer to;
"Quantum Psychology is not a quick fix or cure all, there are no guarantees.
Quantum Psychology is not for everybody. There are some people for whom it really, really works. For others it doesn’t.
Quantum Psychology hopes that multi-dimensional awareness as a vehicle that might help you discover Who You Are. Note that might is underlined since there are no guarantees nor can any individual promise that there will be."

@mockingbird , I think we are speaking of different matters. I am not discussing "therapy", but core ideas it is based upon. In fact, I am not discussing at all, nor I disagree with your views, only with what you stated as per my above post.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Then you know what the "Null Hypothesis" is, right? For example, the null hypothesis for Hubbard's "tech" would be: "Hubbard's 'tech' does not produce 'Clears' and does not produce 'OTs'."

A null hypothesis doesn't need proving, that's the default. You have, at various times, demanded people "prove" the null hypothesis of Hubbard's "tech" which makes me seriously doubt you know scientific principles.

So...

Does this mean by "null hypothesis" i.e. "There exists no evidence of the Divine nature of Jesus of Nazareth" the entirety of christianity is invalidated?

 

[mockingbird]

So...

Does this mean by "null hypothesis" i.e. "There exists no evidence of the Divine nature of Jesus of Nazareth" the entirety of christianity is invalidated?

I will let you decide on Jesus for yourself, I never met the guy.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Auditing is not a therapy..has never been and never considered to be so by any authority.

Auditing have been considered as being part of processed used on $cientology fraudulent cult followers to achieved other goals than healing a condition shall be expected from undergoing a psychological therapy.

Auditing is not a therapy; it is a system that promise to make yourself a clear and then an OT which do not exist; It is not a psychological therapy it is a fraudulent hack!

Like you , I warn people on fraudulent hacks that I well know of like Scientology. Indeed this is different than advising about psychological therapies I don't consider you neither me to be competent in doing so.

Although we have right to free speech so you can use it has you wish and people, upon being told you are not a psychological competent authority, may decide to either follow or not your advices
(Based on ????????)

Properly speaking auditing not a therapy.

However, properly conducted it can be highly therapeutic