Scientology, Ron Hubbard and Hypnosis

[Clay Pigeon]

but it wasn't religion, the first link you posted has it mixed up. Key word is mythology. The old time greeks before plato and aristole, used the god concept as words since they lacked words back then and even a dictionary, it was in picture or art form or poetry, such as Homer, to try to convey concepts. The concept of god was not religion back then, nor was Jesus Christ, or Christianity, he and them came much later.

Timeline:

http://www.english.hawaii.edu/criticalink/archive/aristotle/times.html

The second link, I like this 1st paragraph :

"Greek mythology is the body of myths originally told by the ancient Greeks. These stories concern the origin and the nature of the world, the lives and activities of deities, heroes, and mythological creatures, and the origins and significance of the ancient Greeks' own cult and ritual practices. Modern scholars study the myths in an attempt to shed light on the religious and political institutions of ancient Greece and its civilization, and to gain understanding of the nature of myth-making itself."

Why we could rewrite it as:

Scientology mythology is the body of myths told by L Ron Hubbard. These stories concern the origin and nature of the world, the lives and activities of thetans, of people, of souls, of clears, of OT's. As taught in the mythical words in Hubbards writings and mythical words in lectures of L Ron Hubbard in the PDC's, Pheonix Lectures, HCOB's, HCO PL's, Advice's, books and everything else he spoke or wrote. Modern exscientologists and scholars study the myths to shed light on the so called religious and political institutions, or organizations, of L Ron Hubbard and it's crowd known as a Scientologists, and to gain understanding of the nature of the myth-making itself.

Aren't we all just trying to do that?

Myself, he used a lot of rhetoric.

Yes, Ron used much rhetoric and produced the most bizarre cosmology of any tin pot guru in the long and magnificent history of human horsecrap

But the Greeks!

They, by God, actually knew something. in 1977 in Somerville up under eaves of our garret apartment with it's panoramic view past the city library across the street driving cab and living that wild left-handed black Irish ex-nun and our outrageously fantastic newborn son I spent two weeks reading a fine translation of Plato's "Republic" of which I remember almost nothing but two days after finishing it...

I had a dream...

And I swear it was not just a dream...

I was in the sky above white fluffy cumulus clouds in bright light exactly like bright sunlight save it had no glare to it and a great hand appeared before me and opened. It was like about eighteen feet from heel to fingertip and in the hollow of the palm was a very small pile of tiny gold seeds. I took one and broke it open and the eensiest teeniest drop of shimmering gold liquid oozed out. I touched my my tongue to it...

O my God!!!

Sweet?

As if fresh clover honey were bitter by compare!

Sweet!!!

With an indescribable wetness to it but if you can envision colored water dropped into clear water and how the pigment billows out to fill the whole volume of the glass so did it melt into my tongue to the back of my mouth where it blossomed in all directions forward to lips and face up and back to skull, down the neck to chest and out the arms to hands and and fingers as it suffused the torso hips and groin down the legs to feet and toes and I was alive in every fibre of my being as never before or since...

The dream evanesced into the mist of blessed sleep and I arose at dawn bright as sunlight through a drop of dew.


The Greeks spoke of Nectar.


I have tasted Nectar.

 

[pineapple]

It's a long time since I did TRs but I seem to remember the whole point of OT TR0 and TR0 was to remain "in present time". So I don't understand why some people keep referring to them as examples of how we were hypnotised.

Also, I spent 15 years in the cult, had thousands of hours of auditing, TRs, courseroom study etc and I was constantly being told that joining staff/sea org was my duty. Yet I never did sign a contract. In my opinion that is because I wasn't hypnotised, I was just conned.

That's my 2 cents worth.

Were you in present time the whole time you were doing TR-0? Or did it take you a while to get there? Did you ever feel a little "out of it" for a while before you made it to present time? Or more than a little? Did you ever hallucinate while doing TR-0?

Did you ever do a 2-hour confront? Were you in PT the whole time?

Your thousands of hours of auditing must have included dianetics. You must have run past track. How would you describe the state you were in while doing this? Would you say that was your normal state of consciousness, or was it different? Was it similar to the state you might experience shortly before falling asleep?

 

[mockingbird]

The gross hyperbole and specious claims are mostly in DMSMH not in SOS

That is not providing any evidence for anything it is just a dodge.

 

[mockingbird]

So ... you will keep posting threads and comments advocating the "Hubbard's tech is hypnotism" theory to save Scientology believers who, you believe, were all hypnotized?

OK. That's a noble quest. It might annoy those who were not hypnotized, but it's still a noble quest.

I have no idea if you are saying something untrue on purpose or not. I have repeatedly written that hypnosis in every school I have ever heard of states it affects some people but apparently some people cannot be hypnotized.

So, anyone saying I said everyone in Scientology was hypnotized is making an untrue claim about me.

If hypnosis doesn't work on some people then obviously some people who were in Scientology were not hypnotized. I think that people claiming to know my statements should either ask me or quote me, not make up what I said.

 

[mockingbird]

So ... you will keep posting threads and comments advocating the "Hubbard's tech is hypnotism" theory to save Scientology believers who, you believe, were all hypnotized?

OK. That's a noble quest. It might annoy those who were not hypnotized, but it's still a noble quest.

And there are people who know there are no OTs and clears but do not understand what auditing is or if the tone scale is not true or if overts are not real, etc. I try to help them to see that those other things in Scientology are also lies and a fraud and how they work. I have no claim of saving someone , maybe pointing in a direction that helped me that might help them.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

That is not providing any evidence for anything it is just a dodge.

Personal sworn testimony is all I have available to me MB.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

And there are people who know there are no OTs and clears but do not understand what auditing is or if the tone scale is not true or if overts are not real, etc. I try to help them to see that those other things in Scientology are also lies and a fraud and how they work. I have no claim of saving someone , maybe pointing in a direction that helped me that might help them.

So if there are no "OT's" how did I pull six live nuclear warheads off the rack in Minot AFB in late August of 2007 when I was in Kirkland Washington?

That did occur, you can google it

 

[mockingbird]

So if there are no "OT's" how did I pull six live nuclear warheads off the rack in Minot AFB in late August of 2007 when I was in Kirkland Washington?

That did occur, you can google it

Citation needed

 

[Clay Pigeon]

Of course, you are not obliged to answer the question as no other response than a categorical rejection of the premise is entirely consistent with your polemic

 

[mockingbird]

Personal sworn testimony is all I have available to me MB.

There is a reason there is no scientific validation for any major ideas in Dianetics and Scientology. They are a fraud.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

The bombs moved, google it

 

[mockingbird]

Of course, you are not obliged to answer the question as no other response than a categorical rejection of the premise is entirely consistent with your polemic

That is a fancy way to say something. If an event occurred that proves the claims of Scientology then why don't you recreate it and win the million dollars James Randi offers ?

 

[mockingbird]

The bombs moved, google it

Let us say something happened. Sadly that doesn't prove you caused it with your OT powers. Lots of things happen. That doesn't prove that OT powers exist or are involved.

 

[Bill]

So if there are no "OT's" how did I pull six live nuclear warheads off the rack in Minot AFB in late August of 2007 when I was in Kirkland Washington?

That did occur, you can google it

Out of curiosity, I did check it out. You didn't have anything to do with "one of the worst breaches in U.S. nuclear weapons security in decades". Those who were actually responsible were investigated and disciplined. The investigation was thorough and ... (surprise!) no "OT powers" were found.

If you want to claim responsibility for a horrible series of mistakes by other people that could potentially been a massive disaster -- and for absolutely no logical reason -- well, go ahead. It isn't any more silly than the rest of your stories.

Now, if you claimed to have prevented some horrible mistakes, at least that would be honorable, but causing horrible mistakes, not so much.

And, no, I don't believe you.

 

[Bill]

And there are people who know there are no OTs and clears but do not understand what auditing is or if the tone scale is not true or if overts are not real, etc. I try to help them to see that those other things in Scientology are also lies and a fraud and how they work. I have no claim of saving someone , maybe pointing in a direction that helped me that might help them.

Like I said, a noble endeavor. I'm not sure that insisting people were hypnotized when they probably weren't isn't, in my opinion, particularly helpful. But, probably, not harmful.

 

[mockingbird]

Like I said, a noble endeavor. I'm not sure that insisting people were hypnotized when they probably weren't isn't, in my opinion, particularly helpful. But, probably, not harmful.

Did you read my other reply ?

 

[mockingbird]

Did you read my other reply ?

And how do you know they weren't ?

 

[Bill]

Did you read my other reply ?

Yes, I did read your other reply. Yes, you don't explicitly say "all" Scientologists were hypnotized but you do insist that Hubbard's "tech" IS hypnotism. Not "could be", not "might have the effect on some people" but you insist it IS hypnotism. Period.

That's your opinion. Fine, opinions are fine. I like Mexican food, you think Hubbard's tech is hypnotism. Great.

But please understand that continually and insistently pushing one's opinion as fact might not be as appreciated by others as you might expect.

 

[Bill]

And how do you know they weren't ?

........ and how to you know they were?

 

[JustSheila]

OK, so if your intention isn't to convert everyone to believing they were all hypnotized by Hubbard, what is your aim? You've made your point many, many times -- you seriously believe Scientology was hypnotism. Point made. You have accomplished your goal, you've made your point.

But you keep making the point, over and over and over and over. I don't mind you having that viewpoint, but you spend so much time still trying to make that point. It is weird: Do you think you haven't made your point? Are you looking for total agreement? Is someone arguing with you that you must convince?

I'm just curious.

IMO, MB sort of thinks out loud, Bill, and works things out in his posts. As he said, there will be some who think along the same lines.

Sometimes he (and others, especially Pineapple) have some interesting angles. I'm in the "Scientology is basically hypnotism" camp, and I like MB's thread on it, even if he gets carried away sometimes.

@pineapple
re. Shock and engramic/traumatic content induces an hypnotic state - good post. I posted something along these lines from a psychological perspective, that keeping someone in a state of restimulating trauma or creating trauma shorts their brain thought processes by putting them into the "fight or flee" mode. Adrenaline and other chemicals then dictate a reactive response, since reactions are faster than thinking first. While in this state, a person is not thinking rationally, barely thinking at all other than to get out, away, fight back. Rationality is diminished which would make someone very impressionable.