Scientology, Ron Hubbard and Hypnosis

[JustSheila]

You say you are not answering me again but then you ask me a question so I feel I need to reply.

"What took you so long to come back to harass me again?"

Unless you can show me a post that you are referring to then I have to assume you have got the wrong person. I'm not aware of having called anyone "OSA, OSA, OSA!" and I'm also sure I've never harassed you either. I've often given Likes and Thanks to your posts which you must know. So why would I harass you? I've also never been banned from this board (unlike you) yet you are making me sound like a lunatic.

If you look back over this thread I think you'll find there is one person trying to put a point of view (me) and one person resorting to insults which get increasingly bizarre and vicious (you).

If you can find any post where I've harassed you then bring it out in the open and I'll deal with it but at the moment I think you are confusing me with someone else.

Well, you're spreading false information, just to make me respond. Do it again, and I'll report you.

I have never been banned from ESMB and that's vicious for you to spread that. If your memory is as good as you claim, then you know that is not true. Maybe you're too much of a jeenyus to know what the word BANNED means?

Or maybe this is just you trying to troll me, just like old times.

I'm not digging up those old posts and I'm not mistaken. Find them yourself.

 

[Wilbur]

It seems to me that in the first half of your post you are describing what I would call hypnosis. In the second part you are describing what I would call deception. Yes I know you've added the "confusion" element to the deception part but I think you are stretching it to make it fit.

I can see both of your points (Sheila and TE) - there is such a thing as deception devoid of hypnosis (and I think the CoS is guilty of THAT, rather than hypnosis). But there is such a thing as (what has been dubbed) "conversational hypnosis", which does use some of the trance- and confusion- inducing techniques of hypnosis, to create hypnotic-type impressions in the mind. This is not simple deception, but is instead a form of hypnosis. There is a guy on youtube called Igor Ledochowski who explains the process well (he's trying to sell his wares as a conversational hypnosis trainer, but he does, or at least did, provide quite a lot of free stuff also). I found his stuff quite interesting.

There are definitely conmen types who are skilled in conversational hypnosis. Trump happens to be one of them (I don't say that as a statement for-or-agin his politics. He simply IS an accomplished conversational hypnotist and, in my view, conman. But many politicians are conmen (or women), so, as I say, I don't view the foregoing as a politically-charged statement). I have met several people with that same skill. Whether they have learned it and consciously practised the skill, or whether they just sort of intuitively develop it as something that 'works' for them, I don't know. But I think Sheila is right - abruptly cutting their comm always works (and they never forgive you for it, by the way). When that type realises that you are aware of what they are doing, you become a target for 'dead agenting', in my experience.

Actually, I think there are places in Hubbard's tapes where his patter fits the pattern of conversational hypnosis. Part of it is telling a seemingly coherent story, and then, when people are maximally distracted, to insert something that is a bit of a non-sequitur, that leads to the desired conclusion. Listening to those tapes repeatedly, there were often points where I wondered "how the hell does he get to that conclusion from those premises?" At the time I just assumed that he knew far more than I on the subject, and that I must be missing some information. Like the tape where he explains how if you took two spherical objects, one inside the other, and used a vacuum between them to suck one down onto the other, then at the moment of implosion the spheres would 'think'. And another where "of course Einstein got it wrong when he said that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light" followed by something that I regarded, at the time, as scientific-sounding gibberish and hand-waving.

I also think that the Miscavige "The War is Over" story was something like that. I remember there being a jump in there from constantly harrassing the IRS to "and Rathburn and I just walked into the IRS Commissioner's Office one day on a whim, demanded to see him, and the rest is history". I remember thinking "WTF?" And your attention is left on that fact as he blathers on about whatever else he blathered on about after that. So perhaps there are points in Hubbard's tapes where there is some use of 'conversational hypnosis', but I don't think it was the primary means of sucking people in. I think TE is right in saying that the primary modality was making attractive (but deceptive) claims, and then simply repeating those claims over and over as if "of course that's right". Of course anyone who criticises Scn must be an SP, etc.

 

[strativarius]

Just out of interest I ran a search for OSA,OSA,OSA in ThetanExterior's posts and got this:

The search could not be completed because the search keywords were too short, too long, or too common. the search engine on ESMB is pants!

 

[pineapple]

It seems to me that these discussions about hypnosis that occur quite often here on ESMB usually degenerate because no one defines what they mean by "hypnosis".

When we get down to the level of saying that lending someone money to help them out or buying something you've seen advertised is "hypnosis" then I think the discussion has reached its bottom level.

If someone talks at me for a long time about something trivial will I become bored and possibly yawn? Yes, of course. Does that mean I'm in a trance and will do whatever they say? Of course not.

I think someone needs to define what they mean about being hypnotised by LRH because I for one obviously don't understand it.

@ThetanExterior, it took me quite a while to come around to believing there was anything to the "scn is hypnotism" bit. Arnie used to push this and at first I thought it was too far out. But I had to admit that I really knew almost nothing about hypnotism. So I read up on it a bit.

The most informative book I read was "New Master Course In Hypnotism" by Harry Arons, a book published in the 1950's. The library had lots of more recent books on using self-hypnosis to help you sleep better, relieve stress, etc., but "New Master Course In Hypnotism" was about the older operator/subject hypnosis that Hubbard would have been familiar with, and that was what I wanted to know about. After reading this I could see that it described some scn phenomena I had seen or heard about. If you can get ahold of this book I think you might find it very informative. Not very long, and not hard to read.

I also read "The Hypnotism Handbook," by C. E. Cooke and A. E. van Vogt. I mainly wanted to read this since van Vogt was the co-author, and he was very involved in Dns for quite a while back in the early days. I have to say I was disappointed in this one. I didn't really learn anything useful here. It mainly just went into great detail about EXACTLY what you should say to the subject if certain things happen, etc. Probably useful if you're actually a practicing hypnotist or want to be, but of course I'm not.

I do highly recommend "New Master Course In Hypnotism" by Harry Arons, though.

 

[lotus]

May I say that Hypnosis is a Word that is used to describe many states of the mind\attention where the subconscious is very active; it doesn't necessary mean that the person is either sleeping or unconscious.

I ,recently, did thorough researches on the topic since I wanted to try Hypnosis therapy. I used it (in the form of guided meditations and relaxation at home) for 3-4 months and all the time , using it, I am totally aware, in present time, aware of my environement, what is said, do I agree or disagree to do what is being asked...but in a deep relaxation state to allow my work with the subconscious mind. Too early to know if it work though, but it seems to be profitable to me.

My firsts affirmations where:

Even if I have a bad masturbation history,
it still hung High.
Men shall be my slaves and give me all their money
​

(This last one worked Well, long time ago with a nice Brit bloke in London; As I was walking on the street, I looked at him and he gave me a paper bag containing thousands of pounds.(presumaly misconceived that I was an homeless)

Unbelievable but true.

Pretty please!

I know you think I should use the command:

"my english is beautiful and purrrrrfect"
​

...and that would be clever​

 

[lotus]

Réf: Verywell mind
*fair use excerpt

"While hypnosis is often described as a sleep-like trance state, it is better expressed as a state characterized by focused attention, heightened suggestibility, and vivid fantasies. People in a hypnotic state often seem sleepy and zoned out, but in reality, they are in a state of hyper-awareness.
In psychology, hypnosis is sometimes referred to as hypnotherapy and has been used for a number of purposes including the reduction and treatment of pain. Hypnosis is usually performed by a trained therapist who utilizes visualization and verbal repetition to induce a hypnotic state.

What Effects Does Hypnosis Have?
The experience of hypnosis can vary dramatically from one person to another. Some hypnotized individuals report feeling a sense of detachment or extreme relaxation during the hypnotic state while others even feel that their actions seem to occur outside of their conscious volition. Other individuals may remain fully aware and able to carry out conversations while under hypnosis.

Experiments by researcher Ernest Hilgard demonstrated how hypnosis can be used to dramatically alter perceptions. After instructing a hypnotized individual not to feel pain in his or her arm, the participant's arm was then placed in ice water. While non-hypnotized individuals had to remove their arm from the water after a few seconds due to the pain, the hypnotized individuals were able to leave their arms in the icy water for several minutes without experiencing pain.,

 

[lotus]

Another experience of mine:

One day, I was driving back home
late at night, after a long shift.

Suddenly, I had fallen into an hypnotic trance as I was driving on the highway, and I heard my car talking to me

I heard my car commanding, non-stop, that I call a strange. I succedeed to resist, but boy, it was freaking as the car was saying:

Call Beverly
I repeat, do you want to call Beverly?



Hypnotic trances are very strange!
​

Pretty please ​

 

[JustSheila]

Réf: Verywell mind
*fair use excerpt

What Effects Does Hypnosis Have?
The experience of hypnosis can vary dramatically from one person to another. Some hypnotized individuals report feeling a sense of detachment or extreme relaxation during the hypnotic state while others even feel that their actions seem to occur outside of their conscious volition. Other individuals may remain fully aware and able to carry out conversations while under hypnosis.

Terrific description and quote, thanks.

Some hypnotized individuals report feeling a sense of detachment or extreme relaxation during the hypnotic state while others even feel that their actions seem to occur outside of their conscious volition. Other individuals may remain fully aware and able to carry out conversations while under hypnosis.

So someone under hypnosis might feel like a Thetan Exterior?

Another experience of mine:

One day, I was driving back home
late at night, after a long shift.

Suddenly, as I had fallen into an hypnotic trance as I was driving on the highway, and I heard my car talking to me

I heard my car commanding that I call a stranger and insisting non- stop..I succedeed to resist, but boy, it was freaking as the car was saying:

Call Beverly
I repeat, do you want to call Beverly?



Hypnotic trances are very strange!
​

Pretty please ​

Lotus, sometimes I just absolutely LOVE you! You're awesome.

 

[ThetanExterior]

@ThetanExterior, it took me quite a while to come around to believing there was anything to the "scn is hypnotism" bit. Arnie used to push this and at first I thought it was too far out. But I had to admit that I really knew almost nothing about hypnotism. So I read up on it a bit.

The most informative book I read was "New Master Course In Hypnotism" by Harry Arons, a book published in the 1950's. The library had lots of more recent books on using self-hypnosis to help you sleep better, relieve stress, etc., but "New Master Course In Hypnotism" was about the older operator/subject hypnosis that Hubbard would have been familiar with, and that was what I wanted to know about. After reading this I could see that it described some scn phenomena I had seen or heard about. If you can get ahold of this book I think you might find it very informative. Not very long, and not hard to read.

I also read "The Hypnotism Handbook," by C. E. Cooke and A. E. van Vogt. I mainly wanted to read this since van Vogt was the co-author, and he was very involved in Dns for quite a while back in the early days. I have to say I was disappointed in this one. I didn't really learn anything useful here. It mainly just went into great detail about EXACTLY what you should say to the subject if certain things happen, etc. Probably useful if you're actually a practicing hypnotist or want to be, but of course I'm not.

I do highly recommend "New Master Course In Hypnotism" by Harry Arons, though.

Thanks for the recommendation. I love reading books. The following are some of those I've read dealing specifically with hypnosis. There are many more on mind control and simllar subjects that I've read but It would take me too long to compile a list:

Self Hypnosis by Dr. Brian M. Alman and Dr. Peter Lambrou

How To Master Self Hypnosis In A Weekend by Rick Smith

Hidden Depths - The Story Of Hypnosis by Robin Waterfield

Self Hypnosis by Max Freedom Long

Hypnotism A History by Derek Forrest

My Voice Will Go With You - Teaching Tales Of Milton H. Erickson by Milton H. Erickson and Sidney Rosen

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Posted by Wilbur and snipped.

There are definitely conmen types who are skilled in conversational hypnosis. Trump happens to be one of them (I don't say that as a statement for-or-agin his politics. He simply IS an accomplished conversational hypnotist and, in my view, conman. But many politicians are conmen (or women), so, as I say, I don't view the foregoing as a politically-charged statement). I have met several people with that same skill. Whether they have learned it and consciously practised the skill, or whether they just sort of intuitively develop it as something that 'works' for them, I don't know. But I think Sheila is right - abruptly cutting their comm always works (and they never forgive you for it, by the way). When that type realises that you are aware of what they are doing, you become a target for 'dead agenting', in my experience.

People like this are in every sales based industry. You can feel them eyeing you up as a potential mark wherever you go.

Some people are born with the ability to get whatever they want, they learn very quickly how to use body language and when to shut up when pulling a sales stunt (because the next person to speak loses). One of my dogs can get anything he wants from me and he knows it (lol)! Someone with a lot of charisma, money or power will be ahead of the game and will have far more chance of being successful even without any sales training ... and the younger the mark the easier it will probably be to sell to them ... although young people are much more savvy these days and often know more about a product than the sales person does when they are looking to purchase (the internet did that).

The cult had a huge advantage back in the day in that it was dealing with people who were often already looking for something (even though they often didn't know what it was). There wasn't much new age rubbish around at the time either so the cofs was able to get a serious foothold into the market. Why people still join is a different story but I suppose people are still looking for something and some of them find the cult ... perhaps they even like the idea that they are joining something so notorious, perhaps it brings out the rebel in them?

We know that scientology was a seriously driven sales organisation from the very start and we know that hubbard had people trained in sales, they used Big League Sales by Les Dane which was very corny even back then but clearly worked to an extent ... nowadays sales tek is much more subtle. We know they use subliminal stimuli in advertising, they use fragrances, clever shelf stacking, the net, they have people being paid to wander around talking products up (and just about every other kind of trick they can come up with) and the sales staff either sell and reach their targets or get booted out.

Reach and withdraw is a classic example ... that still works to this day but hubbard had that in his toolkit a very long time ago.

The increase in sales phenomena started in the 80's where I live, perhaps the idea of wearing a business suit to work appealed to many people that didn't fancy doing what their parents had had to do (blue collar work). Trusted banks (as just one example) became sales oriented and conned the living daylights out of its customers. Financial consultants, mortgage brokers and insurance agents were given access to the customer base and all the customers private details for years. The tellers (cashiers) were given very serious targets (they had to locate the marks for the sales teams as well as doing the jobs they had been hired for) ... many of these banks have been recently exposed where I am but it literally took around 40 years and a lot of criminal damage was done to innocent people even though it was obvious to many what was happening, it was all swept under the carpet.

I'm only mentioning this because is really is similar to what we are discussing.

Hubbard wasn't an amazing hypnotist (I think some people are giving him far too much credit) though I would never argue that he would have tried.

He was a very convincing con artist who was ahead of his time and had the rat cunning to get others trained up to do the real work for him while he lolled around fiddling with tomatoes, stealing the research of others (and counting his cash).

 

[ThetanExterior]

Well, you're spreading false information, just to make me respond. Do it again, and I'll report you.

I have never been banned from ESMB and that's vicious for you to spread that. If your memory is as good as you claim, then you know that is not true. Maybe you're too much of a jeenyus to know what the word BANNED means?

Or maybe this is just you trying to troll me, just like old times.

I'm not digging up those old posts and I'm not mistaken. Find them yourself.

Below is a post from Justsheila after she has just returned from her ban. Yes, the one she said earlier in this thread that never happened. She is replying to user Knows who asked her about it:

Hey Guys My first post here.

Edit: The post where she was banned by the admin, ethercat, is here:

Earliest History of Scientology As A Religion

"She has been warned in the past about trying to chase people away, and not just newbies, but also long term valued members. We had a long discussion at the time and I was very patient with her, but there is a limit to my patience." - ESMB administrator ethercat

 

[JustSheila]

Below is a post from Justsheila after she has just returned from her ban. Yes, the one she said earlier in this thread that never happened. She is replying to user Knows who asked her about it:

Hey Guys My first post here.

Edit: The post where she was banned by the admin, ethercat, is here:

Earliest History of Scientology As A Religion

"She has been warned in the past about trying to chase people away, and not just newbies, but also long term valued members. We had a long discussion at the time and I was very patient with her, but there is a limit to my patience." - ESMB administrator ethercat

You are again trying to discredit and troll me. Obviously, you are taking this far, far beyond the actual discussion.

I was temporarily suspended by Ethercat. That was years ago. Everybody knows that. I was never BANNED FROM ESMB as you stated. You somehow managed to omit the word "temporary" to give others a false impression.

As you are taking this far beyond the discussion itself and have made this a personal vendetta to discredit and insult me, I am reporting your last post. You also misled others to believe I was actually BANNED from this site. Emma refers to this sort of thing as "a little vacation" or similar. It's just nasty personal ad hom that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Petty on your part. Trolling.

ADDED: ESMB's hits as a site are out the roof now and have been going up for months. There haven't been any major dramas here in a while. Then you show up, after being gone years, and turn a discussion with two sets of people that think about hypnosis two different ways and turn it into some sort of personal argument. I've been a key poster here while ESMB has been doing well and running smoothly. Your digs and attempts to stir up drama are ridiculous.

https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/exsc...expid=.NFDkwnQTSf2ZNn_fyyCLoQ.1&utm_referrer=

 

[ThetanExterior]

You are again trying to discredit and troll me. Obviously, you are taking this far, far beyond the actual discussion.

I was temporarily suspended by Ethercat. Everybody knows that. I was never BANNED FROM ESMB as you stated. You somehow managed to omit the word "temporary" to give others a false impression.

As you are taking this far beyond the discussion itself and have made this a personal vendetta to discredit and insult me, I am reporting your last post. You also misled others to believe I was actually BANNED from this site. Emma refers to this sort of thing as "a little vacation" or similar. It's just nasty personal ad hom that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Petty on your part. Trolling.

Again, you are playing with words. Most people here would use the word "banned" rather than "temporary vacation". Even the user Knows said you had been "shit canned - banned". It's what people here say when someone is excluded, no matter how temporary.

When I said you had been banned you didn't reply to me that you had been given "a little vacation". You just outright denied all knowledge of what I was talking about. You said I was being vicious and was a troll and you were going to report me. Then when I shove your nose in your own shit you suddenly realise what incident I'm referring to. Well it's a pity you didn't remember that before now instead of calling me names.

Look at what ethercat was saying about you. It's exactly what you are doing now. You are unable to continue a discussion beyond a few posts without losing your temper and giving out insults. Normally you pick on newbies but I think that's probably just because they don't know enough to steer clear of you. But as ethercat said, you also pick on "long term valued members". Well, darling you picked on the wrong one here.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Lol! You were banned you silly sausage ... we all know that freethinker has just been sent to Saudi for a lovely month in the sun but it says "banned" very clearly under his name and will say that until the day he returns.

Wear it as a badge of honour (I've been trying to get banned for years ... and I have the feeling I've come very close to succeeding!).

 

[JustSheila]

Lol! You were banned you silly sausage ... we all know that freethinker has just been sent to Saudi for a lovely month in the sun but it says "BANNED" very clearly under his name and will say that until the day he returns.

Wear it as a badge of honour (I've been trying to get banned for years ... and I have the feeling I've come very close to succeeding!).

Yeh, okay. Maybe ThetanExterior can stop with the personal digs and get back to the topic?

 

[ThetanExterior]

Yeh, okay. Maybe ThetanExterior can stop with the personal digs and get back to the topic?

Well, if you look at what I'm saying, all I'm doing is responding to your insults - not initiating anything new. I think I've tidied it all up now so unless you've got some more ad homs for me then I'm done.

 

[JustSheila]

"I have repeatedly run into talking points used to derail or disrupt posts and threads on the covert use of hypnosis by design in Scientology."

Your opening statement says it all, Mockingbird.

This thread has been interesting. Aside from the disruptions, there have been some terrific posts from both sides of the discussion - and some great references, too. It would be wonderful to keep this on-topic. Hypnosis is a fascinating subject.

 

[pineapple]

Thanks for the recommendation. I love reading books. The following are some of those I've read dealing specifically with hypnosis. There are many more on mind control and simllar subjects that I've read but It would take me too long to compile a list:

Self Hypnosis by Dr. Brian M. Alman and Dr. Peter Lambrou

How To Master Self Hypnosis In A Weekend by Rick Smith

Hidden Depths - The Story Of Hypnosis by Robin Waterfield

Self Hypnosis by Max Freedom Long

Hypnotism A History by Derek Forrest

My Voice Will Go With You - Teaching Tales Of Milton H. Erickson by Milton H. Erickson and Sidney Rosen

I didn't realize you were so well read on the subject. You've read far more than I have.

And you don't think the many, many hours of whole track fantasy in dianetics is a "gradual enlargement of the imagination" intended to make scngsts accept Hubbard's claims about clear, OT, and his own greatness?

You don't think OT's who spend years solo auditing BT's are practicing self hypnosis?

 

[lotus]

You don't think OT's who spend years solo auditing BT's are practicing self hypnosis?

For my part,
My personnal thoughts regarding that are well known.

When one spent years exorcizing pseudo-entities allegely stucked on and within one's body, spending fortunes to be coached in doing that and brought to believe in no-sense sci-fi stories that allegely happened on their pseudo time track ( space travelling in DC8, train on Venus, Uncle Xenu with huge weenie, blown thetans ....) but none the least, they train to apply such exorcism coaching and indoctrination on others...

I'd say either

- they were coerced
- they were under hypnotic or suggestion implanted beliefs

- or were idiots​

I am part of those people and I think , in my situation, there was a mix of all those reasons.


I am looking to reading trubs and other replying your question. There may possibly be some other reasons though.

 

[Emma]

Alrighty! I've had several people report posts in this thread. I don't want to take sides here but to me it seems like Sheila might need to download the "smiling mind" app and chill a little - unless that's considered hypnosis .

There is good discussion happening here. Let's not ruin it.