Scientology, Ron Hubbard and Hypnosis

[Gib]

I've read many books on hypnosis, going down that rabbit hole for possible sources of scientology/dianetics, the bottom line is getting agreement, the ARC triangle is all about agreement although Hubbard said it was most importantly communication, nope, the most important part was getting agreement, or reality, as based by Hubbard.

In Hubbard's world or game of thrones, getting agreement was most important, for if you didn't agree with him, why you were PTS/SP or a DB or WOG.

 

[Gib]

Mockingbird title of this tread should differentiate between diantics and scientology.

dianetics was all about how he studied hypnosis, and he his self figured it out, that hypnosis only cured a few percent of the people, since man's illness's were 70% psychosomatic. The figure of 70% is up for question, no? But I fell for it.

Dianetics was the bolt from the blue, LOL

scientology is all about religion, or spirit.

We wuz duped.

 

[ThetanExterior]

I didn't realize you were so well read on the subject. You've read far more than I have.

And you don't think the many, many hours of whole track fantasy in dianetics is a "gradual enlargement of the imagination" intended to make scngsts accept Hubbard's claims about clear, OT, and his own greatness?

You don't think OT's who spend years solo auditing BT's are practicing self hypnosis?

Well, I think there are two aspects to this.

Firstly, when I look at my experience of Scientology from start to finish the overall pattern is one of lies and deceit. The first lies came in the Dianetics book and from then on I was chasing the abilities I believed it was possible to achieve from firstly Dianetics and then Scientology. Every setback I had, every time I didn't achieve what I wanted to achieve, I justified it by telling myself that I must not have reached my level yet. In other words I hadn't reached the level where the tech would start having a major effect on me.

When I left Scientology I still believed the tech must work but I just couldn't tolerate the abuse any more. It was only after looking at the internet and reading critical books that I realised the Dianetics book was full of lies and the state of Clear and OT were not attainable in Scientology. I still believe that supernormal abilities are attainable by human beings but now I'm looking elsewhere than Scientology. If I read a book now that says it can help me attain certain abilities then I will probably try it just like I did with the Dianetics book. The only difference now is that my tolerance for bs has reduced.

So, in general terms my point is that hypnosis played either no part or no significant part in my Scientology experience and I think that is possibly true for most people.

Now to answer the specific points in your post. I didn't need anything to help me accept Hubbard's claims. I already believed that super abilities were attainable and if Hubbard said that he'd attained them I accepted it. When someone tells me something then I don't automatically assume they are lying. In any case, my focus was on me. I wanted to get up the Bridge to get these abilities. I wasn't a private detective trying to discover if Hubbard had special abilities or not. I was on a mission to get myself up the Bridge and everything else was just a distraction. So, no I don't think the whole track imagination stuff had any relevance. I can use imagination with the best of them. In fact visualisation, meditation and similar subjects are things I use to this day. I don't see any connection to being convinced by Hubbard about anything.

As far as solo auditing goes, I only got as far as OT V so OT III was the only time I spent looking for my own BTs and I don't see any connection to hypnosis whatsoever. Hypnosis requires a person to be in some kind of altered state whereas in my solo auditing I was completely in present time.

To sum up, if someone points out that Hubbard used some kind of hypnotic technique in this or that lecture or this or that bulletin well, fair enough. Maybe he did and maybe he didn't. But my overall point is that he was so successful in deceiving people because he lied and lied and lied again. And when he was caught lying he just lied some more. When someone goes through life like that then they don't need to use hypnosis on people IMO.

 

[tesseract]

Thanks for the recommendation. I love reading books. The following are some of those I've read dealing specifically with hypnosis. There are many more on mind control and simllar subjects that I've read but It would take me too long to compile a list:

Self Hypnosis by Dr. Brian M. Alman and Dr. Peter Lambrou

How To Master Self Hypnosis In A Weekend by Rick Smith

Hidden Depths - The Story Of Hypnosis by Robin Waterfield

Self Hypnosis by Max Freedom Long

Hypnotism A History by Derek Forrest

My Voice Will Go With You - Teaching Tales Of Milton H. Erickson by Milton H. Erickson and Sidney Rosen

Try "Wordweaving". I've read part one and it is fantastic!

 

[ThetanExterior]

It hadn't occurred to me until today that anyone could equate solo auditing with self hypnosis but now that it's been mentioned perhaps some brief information on the two might help the discussion.

A solo auditor holds two cans in one hand while writing on a worksheet with the other hand. The auditor has to write down the time, tone arm position, needle movement and any thoughts or physical reactions he or she is having. They are doing this on almost a minute by minute basis throughout the session. Of course the auditor's eyes are open the whole session because they need to monitor the e-meter. If anything strange is happening in terms of needle reactions then the auditor has a set of procedures to apply to check that the meter is working therefore they are constantly alert at all times. At the end of the session they will write down the final time and tone arm positions and anything else they feel is relevant and will finish with "EOS" which means End Of Session. If they are in an org they will then go to an examiner to be checked to see that their needle is floating and they look happy (very good indicators).

When practising self hypnosis a person is usually alone with eyes closed and not doing anything physical apart from possibly breathing in a certain pattern. All focus is internal not external (solo auditing is both).

 

[pineapple]

It hadn't occurred to me until today that anyone could equate solo auditing with self hypnosis but now that it's been mentioned perhaps some brief information on the two might help the discussion.

A solo auditor holds two cans in one hand while writing on a worksheet with the other hand. The auditor has to write down the time, tone arm position, needle movement and any thoughts or physical reactions he or she is having. They are doing this on almost a minute by minute basis throughout the session. Of course the auditor's eyes are open the whole session because they need to monitor the e-meter. If anything strange is happening in terms of needle reactions then the auditor has a set of procedures to apply to check that the meter is working therefore they are constantly alert at all times. At the end of the session they will write down the final time and tone arm positions and anything else they feel is relevant and will finish with "EOS" which means End Of Session. If they are in an org they will then go to an examiner to be checked to see that their needle is floating and they look happy (very good indicators).

When practising self hypnosis a person is usually alone with eyes closed and not doing anything physical apart from possibly breathing in a certain pattern. All focus is internal not external (solo auditing is both).

On OT III, did you need to convince yourself that the BT's were actually there?

 

[JustSheila]

On OT III, did you need to convince yourself that the BT's were actually there?

Good point!

What TE said about touching and doing things during a solo session makes sense, but if someone has already been convinced of the existence of BTs, then solo auditing could just be a reinforcement of the original hypnotic concepts.

 

[Anonymous100]

I thought OT4 and 5 was about bts as well?
Also maybe people dont think BTs are too strange if theyve heard of exorcism? Or some other spiritual groups that believe we are composed of beings?

 

[JustSheila]

I thought OT4 and 5 was about bts as well?
Also maybe people dont think BTs are too strange if theyve heard of exorcism? Or some other spiritual groups that believe we are composed of beings?

Hi Rose,
Yes, OT 4, 5 and the rest of the OT levels deal with BTs in some way or another.

I don't know of any other spiritual group that believes we are composed of beings. Scientists say we are composed of cells and living tissue, not living beings.

Exorcism is about demon possession. Demons are non-human mythological creatures that supposedly exist to torture us.

There are no explanations for BTs, what they really are, where they come from or what their purpose is. BTs are part of an incomplete, half-ass sci-fi story that L Ron Hubbard tells Scientologists on OT3, the Xenu story. That's all Hubbard ever tells about them, and that's pretty lame, especially for an experienced sci-fi writer. He doesn't call them human spirits, but leads us to believe they are, but maybe they're not, but maybe not all, but maybe something else. If they are actually spirits that were all stuck together from an explosion, then why do we treat them like they are some sort of degraded, lesser thing and call them BTs, instead of just thetans or spirits? It's just weird. Part of the whole confusion that is the glue that makes people in Scientology want to find out more, spend more and traps them into the con that Hubbard designed.

I think L Ron intentionally didn't describe them more so that others would envision them their own way and by doing so, participate in the scam. Agreement and envisioning...key factors in hypnotism.

 

[Anonymous100]

https://fractalenlightenment.com/35...tive-entities-on-our-aura-getting-rid-of-them
There are pages elswhere on entity clearing etc. http://www.clairvision.org/books/entities/entities-parasites-of-the-body-of-energy-excerpts.html
Seems its an old idea....

 

[ThetanExterior]

I thought OT4 and 5 was about bts as well?
Also maybe people dont think BTs are too strange if theyve heard of exorcism? Or some other spiritual groups that believe we are composed of beings?

Yes but the question I was replying to was about solo auditing. OT 4 and 5 are not done solo.

 

[JustSheila]

https://fractalenlightenment.com/35...tive-entities-on-our-aura-getting-rid-of-them
There are pages elswhere on entity clearing etc. http://www.clairvision.org/books/entities/entities-parasites-of-the-body-of-energy-excerpts.html
Seems its an old idea....

Well, how about that. I dunno, Rose, I may be wrong, but I think all of these are spinoffs of Scientology. Even in the 60s, 70s and 80s, there were spinoffs where people left but still had some Scientology hangover so started their own versions. David Mayo did and was very successful for years, but he left Scientology and any remnants of it completely and realized it was all bullshit. Rest in Peace, David.

Maybe some are harmless and others aren't. I did the OT levels through OT 4 and realized the more I believed there were thingies out there, the more there were. It seems L Ron Hubbard went nuts trying to get rid of his BTs when he died. Imagine spending 36 years being in charge of it and getting all the auditing you want, then in the end going stark-raving mad with hallucinations that there were hundreds of BTs all over you and wanting to suicide. That's how he died, you know.

For me, OT 3 and 4 were a huge waste of time and energy and a lot of misdirection.

If you're going to look into this stuff, that's your business. Stay away from the cult atmospheres for your own sake. There are lots of references online about the characteristics of a cult so you know what to look for, like this one: http://cultresearch.org/help/characteristics-associated-with-cults/

Is there something you're trying to resolve in your own life, or are you just curious? You don't have to say anything personal if it makes you uncomfortable.We're pretty good listeners here, and members have been through all sorts of studies and practices.

Have a good day.

Sheila

 

[ThetanExterior]

On OT III, did you need to convince yourself that the BT's were actually there?

No. The OT III auditing instructions told us what to do so I did it. All I wanted to do was to get through this level and onto the next one until I eventually got the gains I'd been promised.

I don't really know the point you are making so I don't know what else to tell you. If you are implying that there are no such things as BTs then how could anyone audit them blah, blah - well that is a whole new subject which probably would require a whole new thread.

As for hypnosis - when I was on OT 2 I was fully indoctrinated into the fact that OT 2 was a hard slog which could take a long time and there was absolutely no way anyone could ever complete it by having a cognition. You just had to keep trudging away until there was nothing left to run. One or two days later I attested to the completion of OT 2 after having had a huge cognition that astounded the Qual Sec. If that was hypnosis then it didn't work very well.

 

[Gib]

Hi Rose,
Yes, OT 4, 5 and the rest of the OT levels deal with BTs in some way or another.

I don't know of any other spiritual group that believes we are composed of beings. Scientists say we are composed of cells and living tissue, not living beings.

Exorcism is about demon possession. Demons are non-human mythological creatures that supposedly exist to torture us.

There are no explanations for BTs, what they really are, where they come from or what their purpose is. BTs are part of an incomplete, half-ass sci-fi story that L Ron Hubbard tells Scientologists on OT3, the Xenu story. That's all Hubbard ever tells about them, and that's pretty lame, especially for an experienced sci-fi writer. He doesn't call them human spirits, but leads us to believe they are, but maybe they're not, but maybe not all, but maybe something else. If they are actually spirits that were all stuck together from an explosion, then why do we treat them like they are some sort of degraded, lesser thing and call them BTs, instead of just thetans or spirits? It's just weird. Part of the whole confusion that is the glue that makes people in Scientology want to find out more, spend more and traps them into the con that Hubbard designed.

I think L Ron intentionally didn't describe them more so that others would envision them their own way and by doing so, participate in the scam. Agreement and envisioning...key factors in hypnotism.

yah, that's why I said scientology is a made up story by Hubbard. That includes BT's, made up by Hubbard to continue the story, LOL, and get us to agree.

 

[Gib]

I've read many books on hypnosis, going down that rabbit hole for possible sources of scientology/dianetics, the bottom line is getting agreement, the ARC triangle is all about agreement although Hubbard said it was most importantly communication, nope, the most important part was getting agreement, or reality, as based by Hubbard.

In Hubbard's world or game of thrones, getting agreement was most important, for if you didn't agree with him, why you were PTS/SP or a DB or WOG.

here is another reference, if you read it, I think it shines thru on what Hubbard did, you can call it hypnosis, I call it old rhetoric. It's all about getting agreement, some have said us who got involved where like a frog slowing boiling in a pot of water.

http://conversational-hypnosis.com/articles/a18.html

" The first reason to use agreement tactics is to put the critical factor in your subjects mind to sleep. " That's what hubbard did with KSW and many other things.

"The critical factor which tells people whether or not something is believable needs to be turned off in order to induce a good trance and to make suggestions that will hold true when the person is not under hypnosis." That's the OT levels.

"This is the second reason you will use agreement tactics. Once the critical factor is turned off you will want your suggestions to seem realistic, agreement tactics do just that. They get the listener in the habit of agreeing with you and lend you the authority in their altered state of mind."

That's what Hubbard did, he made hisself authority, what would Ron do? LOL

on and on, if you read the link.

So, IMHO, if you think you were hypnotized, yes you were. If you think you were persuaded, yes you was. If you think you was a silly fool, yes you was.

I wouldn't take the word "trance" literately.

 

[lotus]

Hi Rose,
Yes, OT 4, 5 and the rest of the OT levels deal with BTs in some way or another.

I don't know of any other spiritual group that believes we are composed of beings. Scientists say we are composed of cells and living tissue, not living beings.

Exorcism is about demon possession. Demons are non-human mythological creatures that supposedly exist to torture us.

There are no explanations for BTs, what they really are, where they come from or what their purpose is. BTs are part of an incomplete, half-ass sci-fi story that L Ron Hubbard tells Scientologists on OT3, the Xenu story. That's all Hubbard ever tells about them, and that's pretty lame, especially for an experienced sci-fi writer. He doesn't call them human spirits, but leads us to believe they are, but maybe they're not, but maybe not all, but maybe something else. If they are actually spirits that were all stuck together from an explosion, then why do we treat them like they are some sort of degraded, lesser thing and call them BTs, instead of just thetans or spirits? It's just weird. Part of the whole confusion that is the glue that makes people in Scientology want to find out more, spend more and traps them into the con that Hubbard designed.

I think L Ron intentionally didn't describe them more so that others would envision them their own way and by doing so, participate in the scam. Agreement and envisioning...key factors in hypnotism.

Sheila,

One of the most important point that (I think) must be emphased about all this bt's and exorcising LRH Tech , is his mental state of a delluded paranoid struggling here and there with psychosis; Adding the Pink and Grey + alcohol consumption ( and possibly other hard drugs as reported) , we ended up with amazing fabulations, hallucinations and lunacy he believed to be true..( wich is way beyond to being a fooler and a con artist)

We know, from Serge testimony, that LRH lunacy , regarding malignant entities, reached an unprecedented level of madness before he died and thus was desperately asking for a super e-meter to electrify and blow them before he died. (he was dosed with vistaril and was terrifelied of Bt's...)

This whole thing is such a lunatic non- sense the " was there Hypnosis involved" question is relevant to find out how we came to believe the materials when reading it and décide to go on with solo auditing.

My thought is that we would know only if people would give the specifics on what they thought, their reaction, upon materials discovery.

Obviously there has been cognitive dissonance involved...but what process led people to accept it and make sense of such a non- sense????
How and when were we contaminated with such paranoid and lunatic beliefs????

 

[ThetanExterior]

<snip>

So, IMHO, if you think you were hypnotized, yes you were. If you think you were persuaded, yes you was. If you think you was a silly fool, yes you was.

I wouldn't take the word "trance" literately.

I agree with this.

Oh no! Gib has just hypnotised me!

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Good point!

What TE said about touching and doing things during a solo session makes sense, but if someone has already been convinced of the existence of BTs, then solo auditing could just be a reinforcement of the original hypnotic concepts.

I expect most are still in shock when they are pushed into their first solo session and that happens as soon as the theory is completed. There is no time to really think of anything much except perhaps that something feels very wrong.

Remember that OT3 is the first very real step into blind acceptance (evaluation) and for many (it can't just have been me) the idea of getting into the solo auditing room ... ALONE ... where you can gather your thoughts was probably the main goal, but yes, becoming convinced that BT's existed may have been easy for some, just as being convinced (or not) of the existence of anything spiritual in any religion is.

As mentioned earlier I tried to do the process but found it so ridiculous that I just sat there for around 5 weeks and didn't know what to do, it was agonising, but I wrote up the 'sessions' and played along, I felt I had no choice ... eventually I wrote a note to the Senior CS and got a nasty one back ordering me to keep going and making me wrong for daring to communicate.



That CS note helped me to make my next decision though, it made me get a grip.

I waited until later that day when I was well away from the AO and rang someone from home who was highly trained (and had done OT3) and very carefully made it clear that I felt I had 'reached the EP' and was being forced to continue. I made sure to sound basically happy. Luckily, he helped me out (bless him) by giving me a fantastic hubbard reference about overrun which I read the following day and then immediately referred the Senior CS to (that made me even more popular, not).

The CS had no choice but to let me go.

I attested the following day but we all knew that the only thing different about me was that I had morphed into an actress who was playing the part so she could get the hell out ... (undeclared) and that it was highly unlikely they would ever see me again. They were right about that. The tech team watched me very carefully at graduation and the reges made it hell for me to get through the routing-out form, but they do that to everyone so I knew that was coming.

I have never been so happy to get on a plane and head home, the next day I threw my certs and meter into the bottom of a drawer and never looked at them again until years later when I slung them in the rubbish bin along with everything else cult related (another great day).

The cult reminds me of domestic abuse ... all of the stages are the same. Becoming besotted (you can call that hypnotised if you like) happens very early in the relationship but gradually includes control, threats and abuse. Cognitive dissonance plays a huge part, but it is that hidden relationship glue that actually keeps people entrapped. People who are being abused have usually woken up long ago from the besotted stage but remain in the relationship due to the threats of loss or further abuse.

 

[pineapple]

I don't really know the point you are making so I don't know what else to tell you. If you are implying that there are no such things as BTs then how could anyone audit them blah, blah - well that is a whole new subject which probably would require a whole new thread.

The point I was trying to make was that it would require some feat of imagination to convince yourself that you're inhabited by BT's and to get into telepathic comm with them. Most people in civilized societies today don't believe there are other spirits living in their bodies, so I would think this does not come naturally.

I think if I'd stayed in scn longer and felt there was much to gain by auditing out these critters, I could have made myself believe in them. But I split before I got to the OT levels, so I never did, and at no time have I felt that my body is inhabited by (other?) spirits.

So I think this is probably a case of Hubbard getting you to convince yourself of something you would never believe otherwise. That's the sense in which I think this is an example of hypnosis. It's like a hypnotist convincing you there's a kangaroo in the room when there really isn't. And Hubbard gets you to do this to yourself.

 

[ThetanExterior]

I remember being at Saint Hill trying to continue on the OT levels when RTC stepped in. Two RTC reps told me I had to go through a completely pointless disconnection procedure before I could be allowed to continue.

I had done the full OEC course twice so I argued with them and told them they were using the wrong HCOPL and I very kindly told them which was the correct HCOPL to apply. They told me that they were RTC and I needed to do what they said.

I told them they were using Policy to create a problem which was itself off-policy. They told me they were RTC and I needed to do what they said.

I again refused so some big-name Saint Hill SO members stepped in and told me I needed to do what RTC said even though they agreed I had a point.

I refused and went home. That was the beginning of the end for me.