Scientology security kills man with sword

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Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I see that I still have a few e-mails I received from Mario. Nothing exciting. In October 2005 he asked me (nicely) for a copy of my Problems of Work Course, which I sent him. I don't know if he ever did it or even looked at it.

I also see a post about him from FreezoneOrg Yahoo group. Since I made it, I don't see any netiquette violation in quoting it in its entirety:

Sat Feb 4, 2006 3:00 pm

Re: communication

Mario,

One way to cut a communication line is to flood it.

Example: I am reading the posts to this list on limited time in a
public library. I now don't read *any* of your posts, although I read
the others. I am replying here because of the heading [written by Mario].
I didn't read the body of this post either.

I don't know if you are posting gems or garbage now. I think of you as
crazy, not because you have demonstrated that you actually are, but
because you are inconsiderately flooding this list with your comments.
Some may be worthwhile, but I will never know as I don't have the time
to sort the wheat from the chaff.

You might wish to reconsider your posting strategy.

Paul

It gives the reason he was banned. I was there at the time. I was in comm with Terril on the exact subject. It was Terril's decision, since it's his group, but I would have done the same thing as he was disrupting the group a lot.

Paul
 

Lovesnightsky

Silver Meritorious Patron
The man who was killed was disturbed, that's for sure. But I think that those who pointed out that any church would not close its doors to disturbed individual but instead get them professional help, particularly if the church sold self improvement and betterment programs, have a point.
Did the tech mess up his head? I think it's a strong possibility.

I'd like to see an inquiry about all the people who have lost their marbles and/or their lives while in scientology. I mean, it is a heavy toll. I can't make comparisons to other self help, spiritual or self improvement organizations as I have not done any research on the matter, but it seem to me that there is no other organization that has such a large number of parishioners who have lost their marbles/killed themselves or others in the same time ratio as the CoFs.
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'd like to see an inquiry about all the people who have lost their marbles and/or their lives while in scientology. I mean, it is a heavy toll. I can't make comparisons to other self help, spiritual or self improvement organizations as I have not done any research on the matter, but it seem to me that there is no other organization that has such a large number of parishioners who have lost their marbles/killed themselves or others in the same time ratio as the CoFs.

Jonestown killed how many, 2000? And how many in Irag from the suicide bombers and other religious slaughters? The Balkans have religious feuds that span thousands of years and on and on and on. You could say it's not the same but isn't it really? scn is in reality mild in comparison to some of the other religious slaughters and abuse. Not trying to defend it but merely keep things in perspective. At some point all religious extremism needs to go. Because it's the extremism -ksw- and it's consequences that make people go nutty.
 

Lovesnightsky

Silver Meritorious Patron
Jonestown killed how many, 2000? And how many in Irag from the suicide bombers and other religious slaughters? The Balkans have religious feuds that span thousands of years and on and on and on. You could say it's not the same but isn't it really? scn is in reality mild in comparison to some of the other religious slaughters and abuse. Not trying to defend it but merely keep things in perspective. At some point all religious extremism needs to go. Because it's the extremism -ksw- and it's consequences that make people go nutty.

As far as I know, none of those groups are above the law... which is my point.
Plus they don't sell self help and pseudo psychoanalysis - which is directly related to mental health. Religious wars are not in the same playing field as the CoFs.. .totally irrelevant to my post.
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
I agree, but how on Earth would that be accomplished?

That's a good question. I just hope people begin to realize that we have had a long period throughout history where we could be as stupid as we wanted but those day are numbered.
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
As far as I know, none of those groups are above the law... which is my point.
Plus they don't sell self help and pseudo psychoanalysis - which is directly related to mental health. Religious wars are not in the same playing field as the CoFs.. .totally irrelevant to my post.

I don't follow the "above the law" point. People get away with what they can which is exactly what scn does. You can make it as different as you want but the same abuses have been happening for eons. Not that that makes it ok. And scn isn't in a religious war? "Total psychiatric obliteration" and guys on horses with torches? The psychs are their satan that they are trying to purge from society and ot is their spiritual salvation. Same old shit. But I'm sure they would kill more if they really were above the law. And I love when people talk about pseudo or quack psychoanalysis. Is there non pseudo or non quack psychoanalysis? Show me.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
In most mainstream religions a member of a community who exhibits severe mental disturbances would most likely to be encouraged by the church or members of the congregation to seek psychiatric help of some kind.

We will never know whether it was the tech, a genetic disposition to mental illness, a traumatic brain injury or a combination of all that caused him to lose mental stability.
However even if it was proven without a doubt that Scientology did not negatively influence his mental state; it certainly did nothing to assist him.
Kind of damning for an organisation styling itself as a church; and its members who are supposedly striving to help mankind.

I've been in disagreement with Scn's stance on psychology and related sciences for years. But I will point out that this guy hadn't been IN any Scn organization for quite some time before the tragedy.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Conduct is different than free speech. I suggest you consult a dictionary. A rule of conduct would be, "No personal attacks". Infringing on free speech would be, "No discussion of Hubbard's delerium tremens and delusions that he called 'OT levels'." Furthermore, the topic was infringement of free speech on freezone forums. Free speech infringement on other forums is irrelevant.

You just stated that they were a problem. That notion came from you.


I don't need to consult a dictionary. A number of forums have, in their RULES OF CONDUCT topics that are ok to discuss and topics that are not ok to discuss. Not all ROCs pertain to netiquette. Beliefnet is a case in point and I mentioned that earlier.

In any event, anyone who doesn't like that who wants to post on an FZ forum can go to one of the ones where there is no such prohibition. Anyone who posts on a private forum has to abide by the rules set by the admin or moderator.
 

Lovesnightsky

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't follow the "above the law" point. People get away with what they can which is exactly what scn does. You can make it as different as you want but the same abuses have been happening for eons. Not that that makes it ok. And scn isn't in a religious war? "Total psychiatric obliteration" and guys on horses with torches? The psychs are their satan that they are trying to purge from society and ot is their spiritual salvation. Same old shit. But I'm sure they would kill more if they really were above the law. And I love when people talk about pseudo or quack psychoanalysis. Is there non pseudo or non quack psychoanalysis? Show me.

So what's your point exactly?
That scientology's acts not being answerable to the law of the land is ok?
You cannot be serious comparing the CoFs to a holy war. Holy crap!
Did I say there was non quak psychoanalysis? go fight somewhere else, you are making no sense.

Or perhaps I should say, "wrong target".
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
So what's your point exactly?
That scientology's acts not being answerable to the law of the land is ok?
You cannot be serious comparing the CoFs to a holy war. Holy crap!
Did I say there was non quak psychoanalysis? go fight somewhere else, you are making no sense.

Or perhaps I should say, "wrong target".

Uh let's see. You said:

"I'd like to see an inquiry about all the people who have lost their marbles and/or their lives while in scientology. I mean, it is a heavy toll. I can't make comparisons to other self help, spiritual or self improvement organizations as I have not done any research on the matter, but it seem to me that there is no other organization that has such a large number of parishioners who have lost their marbles/killed themselves or others in the same time ratio as the CoFs."

I guess when people say scn has really broken new ground I feel compelled to say that it really hasn't. I mean the whole "mental health" thing is just bait to get people in until you can sell them on "ot". And at that point it is a cult like any other cult. "Charismatic Leader", belief that only the master's teachings will lead to salvation. Same old shit. And it is also my point that the exact same techniques used in the other things I mentioned are used in scn as well as many of the same consequences of death and insanity but worse in many cases. And by the way I do think scios in their minds are fighting a sort of holy war. Just a pretty pathetic one with no guns. Uh well I guess you can't say no guns anymore. But there was a point there if you cared to see it. And I have no desire to get in a flame war. But you have no right to tell me where I should or shouldn't go.
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
This thread is turning into a bitch-fest.

May I respectfully suggest that people refrain from further posts until further facts have been revealed?

"Medicine" is practised like religion (watch what happens to a clinician who dares to step out of line) and kills thousands of people every year yet there's barely a social mumble over it.

We all know $cn has its crimes, but in this particular case, we lack the facts to make an informed judgement.
 

Lovesnightsky

Silver Meritorious Patron
Uh let's see. You said:

I guess when people say scn has really broken new ground I feel compelled to say that it really hasn't.

I didn't.
I mean the whole "mental health" thing is just bait to get people in until you can sell them on "ot". And at that point it is a cult like any other cult. "Charismatic Leader", belief that only the master's teachings will lead to salvation.

Exactly, the CoFs sells "the science of mental health" and then freak when people go nuts.
Same old shit. And it is also my point that the exact same techniques used in the other things I mentioned are used in scn as well as many of the same consequences of death and insanity but worse in many cases.

Exactly what I was saying, and I think they should be held accountable and not above the law as they are presently.

And by the way I do think scios in their minds are fighting a sort of holy war. Just a pretty pathetic one with no guns. Uh well I guess you can't say no guns anymore. But there was a point there if you cared to see it. And

I'm glad you clarified this point. Yes, they do think they are in a holy war in their mind, but they are not blowing up people or committing genocide. My view is that to say something like that belittles what they are really doing as it puts it in a context that has nothing to do with them.
I have no desire to get in a flame war. But you have no right to tell me where I should or shouldn't go.


Sorry, I was out of line. I apologize.
 

Tim Skog

Silver Meritorious Patron
The copyright laws in the U.S. lack the wording that would prohibit any group calling itself a religion from registering and enforcing copyrights on "scriptures" that would be in accordance with the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Because corporate scientology maintains the illusion of enforceable copyrights, they can scam public out of hundreds of millions of dollars, thus pay an ex-LAPD security to guard to kill a former OSA volunteer and scientologist.

[My bold letters on OSA volunteer]. This is not the first post where I have seen Mario referred to as an OSA volunteer. Other than the lawsuit that he filed with another Scientologist against Dr. West of UCLA in 1993 wherein Moxon is mentioned as being an attorney of record, I see no other incidents of Mario having done any work for OSA. The lawsuit is not even proof that Mario was put up to this as an OSA volunteer.

Is their other information about his OSA history? If he was an OSA volunteer, it was a short-lived history. The lawsuit was dismissed (I assume in 1993).

The OSA link is tenuous at best. There seems to be a suspicion of OSA nefarious behavior here in Mario's death -- getting rid of a former volunteer who went bad and who has turned on us. Sorry, I just don't see it. If OSA was going to liquidate Mario they would have done it away from the Church in a far different manner. Believe me.
 

Tim Skog

Silver Meritorious Patron
If Mario was OSA, that would answer a question I have about board activity recently. There is a part that does not make sense.

I don't know for sure one way or the other. He may have been an OSA volunteer. There just isn't any real strong evidence so far that he was. There is the 1993 tie in to Moxon, but I don't know of any other incident since then. That could have been a one time thing.

Then 15 years later he is shot by a security guard. To much missing data to conclude that OSA had anything to do with his death.

As a former GO/OSA member myself I'd love to nail OSA with this, but it is not a strong enough case. Perhaps more data will be forthcoming.
 
I don't know for sure one way or the other. He may have been an OSA volunteer. There just isn't any real strong evidence so far that he was. There is the 1993 tie in to Moxon, but I don't know of any other incident since then. That could have been a one time thing.

Then 15 years later he is shot by a security guard. To much missing data to conclude that OSA had anything to do with his death.

As a former GO/OSA member myself I'd love to nail OSA with this, but it is not a strong enough case. Perhaps more data will be forthcoming.

Yeah, would need data. I was referring to the martini circus where there was frantic discussion on scio vs freezone and a subtext on "is matini OSA?" The discussion kept making scio look worse and worse and worse - and more worse. I was thinking, if mario is OSA he is going further and further downstat with this and is going to get his arse fried in ethics. But if it stopped anyone raising the Mario OSA? question, which may have ended up with someone producing nasty info ......or even if Mario was a past OSA volunteer. Now that would make me stop thinking that martini was completely
without brains. I'm sure he has brains - so he would need a purpose. Anyway this is only talk and the sort of thing people wonder about in the absence of data.
 

FoTi

Crusader
During this time when Mario was involved in the lawsuit against Jolly West at UCLA, OSA was working on destroying CAN (Cult Awareness Network). I was totally convinced CAN was a supressive group so I volunteered to help out. OSA was creating law suits anyway they could to wipe them out. My name was used in one of the suits - that one they won - and eventually they broke CAN and bought them out and ended up with the use of the name and now when you call the Cult Awareness Network you get Scientology. I don't know if it's true or not, but it appears to me that it was a similar case with Mario - just the use of his name because Jolly West was one of OSA's targets at the time. If I remember correctly, it was because Jolly West was in support of CAN and he was a psych. There were a number of public Scientologists helping out on this venture with OSA to wipe out CAN.

I have been wondering if someone got close to Mario and slipped him something that made him go wierd. I remember Arnie on OCMB had mentioned that OSA put something on his toothbrush when they raided his house...I think he said it was LSD....and when they went after Paula Cooper they got a Scientologist in close to her to mess her up. I also remember that somebody PDHed Michael Roberts at the Portland Crusade and he backed off from promoting or being active in Scientology for a while until they pulled him in for a session and found out what had happened to him in Portland. Someone had hidden in his closet in his hotel room. He noticed that the closet door was ajar when he came into the room but was tired so didn't pay much attention and went to bed and went to sleep. They got him when he was asleep - drugged him and he never knew it happened until he got some auditing on it. After that session he was angry about what happened to him and became very passionate about regging for the IAS and worked dilligently pulling money in for the IAS from then on.
 
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