Scientology vs. Psychiatry

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Has there ever been evidence of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and such problems observed in the animal world, including apes, our closest relatives ?

What methods worked for these animals ? With animal studies, you can pretty much rule out the placebo effect, which makes the results more reliable.

(I know, you have a crazy cat, but I'm talking about a properly diagnosed case of an animal with a mental disease)

What makes you think you can rule out the placebo effect in animal studies? That sounds like a completely fallacious assumption.
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
What makes you think you can rule out the placebo effect in animal studies? That sounds like a completely fallacious assumption.

Because it's kind of hard to talk to animals. You'd have to say: "Here kitty, there a nice little green pill that will make you stop climbing the curtains at 5:00 AM". The kitty, would have to understand what you said and force himself to change his behavior.

The placebo would on the other hand, work well of the other side of the double blind test: the Vet !
 

at3ist

Patron with Honors
is this a poll, if it is, i go with psychiatry

lobotomies and shock treatment is like saying you dont like medicine cuz they use leechees to suck your bad blood, i do agree that you cannt put everybody in a mental condition, when they do something wrong, but for real sick, crazy people we need this drugs, the other ones just need some guidance in order to achieve their goals, and thats a subject of psychology and others schools (put scientology here if you want, to me scientology tech is just hypnosis, and meditation),
but there are real cases were people need drugs, you name it, cerebrovascular accident, you cannt just say get some hypnosis and have your brain how it was, you need some drugs in order for it to not occur again (CVA, repeat, if you dont take some drugs), and in order to deal with it, cuz your brain and how you use to think can not longer be achieved,

but theres this other side of psychiatry, when you get sad and go for some drugs, and theres this thing too, ive being in latinamerica and i didnt knew anyone who has OCD or ADD, and thats very common in america, how?,

the real thing is that in subjects of the mind theres nothing 100 % effective, even in medicine and other stuff, if your going to have a procedure there risk, and there the chance you die in the procedure, that it make it wrong, i dont think so, there is that option we dont have back then, that give u chances of a better life or a bad experiece, thats how it is
 
They use big electric jolts to bring peole back to life when they have a heart attack sometimes don't
they? Cadiac arrest? dying on the operating table? Now doing that to a person - well it's barbaric. All that electricity in one jolt. It's inhuman. Haven't they heard
of mr rolly pollies genu-ine touch assist.?
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
As I recall the history of blood-letting, it was used because it worked -- on some cases, namely on people that had excessive iron levels. The problem was that they didn't know why it worked on those cases, so they over-generalized and used it on everyone for all diseases. Bad idea.

...

If Ron had invented blood-letting, the COS would still be blood-letting in each and every case. And if the patient died? Obviously, it would be because you applied the blood-letting incorrectly, or the patient was out-ethics, or the patient was PTS, or the patient was an SP. It couldn't possibly because the LRH prescription of blood-letting in all cases was incorrect, over-broad, or an over-generalization.

This is the Scn mentality. Accusing us mere mortals of running "A=A", the church does exactly the same thing with ethics, tech and admin.

They use big electric jolts to bring peole back to life when they have a heart attack sometimes don't
they? Cadiac arrest? dying on the operating table? Now doing that to a person - well it's barbaric. All that electricity in one jolt. It's inhuman. Haven't they heard of mr rolly pollie's genuine touch assist.?

A defibrilator is aiming at jolting one particular muscle, and while there may some spasm when applied, it is not scrambling the entire Central Nervous System in the same way ECT is doing. There are now non-professional defibrilators that can by used by untrained people. The machine tells you exactly where to put the "paddles", takes a variety and measurements and then decides if a jolt is necessary or not. I heard on the TV (don't watch much, but at the volume my father has, can't help but hear), that the general trend is AWAY from defibrilators if possible. It was even recommended that if you are the sole "operator" forget the mouth-to-mouth bit and just keep pumping away on the chest, because in normal circumstances air is getting in and out anyway. I saw the end of the story, and it showed a product that is wrapped around the chest and has a built in motor to keep performing cardiac compressions, and allow you to move the patient. If the unit detects a "natural" heart beat, it stops and monitors, and then resumes if necessary. It is said to have significantly reduced the need for defibrilators, and again can usually be fitted to the patient by competent first-aid operator.
 
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moira

New Member
Has there ever been evidence of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and such problems observed in the animal world, including apes, our closest relatives ?

What methods worked for these animals ? With animal studies, you can pretty much rule out the placebo effect, which makes the results more reliable.

(I know, you have a crazy cat, but I'm talking about a properly diagnosed case of an animal with a mental disease)


Ear and Tail biting syndrome apparently in pigs is similar to bipolar. and its treated with nutrients. i highly doubt pigs have a placebo effect their 'treatment' is given to them as food and they wouldn't know the difference....

and the bipolar empower plus study is out. http://www.la-press.com/article.php?article_id=1384

http://www.truehope.com/newsletter/editions/Online076-April-09-2009.html
 

CornPie

Patron Meritorious
...is this a poll, if it is, i go with psychiatry...
Hey, a poll is a good idea, it would be interesting to know how this crowd of Ex's stands on issues such as:
. psych issues
. if you're an Ex-scn, what scn issues have you, "let go of", as Kha Khan puts it.
. The polls may not be scientific, but they're a yardstick, of some sort.
. I always check back to see where I stack up, and normally I'm with the pack.
. But one answer that rose my eyebrows, is that roughly half of the people on this board, who chose to respond to the poll, said they thought 9/11 was not as advertised. Wow.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I don't believe in "psychs". There are many types of Psychologists, Psychiatrists, Psychoanalysts, therapists with Masters' Degrees but no PHD, etc, etc. There are many schools of thought in Psychology. There are Psychiatrists who mix treatment with drugs and other more invasive methods with talk therapies. There are Psychiatrists who don't do much counselling. There are Psychologists who have experimental therapies. It's not all one thing or the other.
 

owl

Patron with Honors
Wow, I'm blown away by your ability to cite supporting evidence and carry on a rational discussion. How impressive.

wow sarcasm! so impressive!

the reason i didn't bother is because you honestly aren't worth it. that's just the truth, i'm not trying to be mean.
 

owl

Patron with Honors
I believe you were one of the people advocating a position that people who become psychiatrists do so because they want to be in a position where they can hurt people. That might be true for some small percentage of them, but the ones I know did it out of intellectual interest and a drive to help.

dude you need to quote the person you're replying to
 

SomeGuy

Patron Meritorious
But the fact is most people do have a bad impression of the psych industry. Regardless of whether we like it, people associate a stigma with the industry, their patients, forever branded as having been potentially zapped or lobotomized. And all the industry has to do is outlaw the practice, and people won't be ashamed to use their services. And those practices were only used in 1/10th of 1% of the cases anyway. And until the industry does outlaw it, people will get the weebie-jeebies every time they walk past a psych office.

Do you have like statistical analysis for "most people do have a bad impression of the psych industry." Like a paper on it even a pure survey, anything?

It is my experience that a majority of people view psychiatrists, psychologists and the general medical profession in pretty high regard.

I like this thread, I'll agree observationally there is an irrational hatred of a subject by people who are completely uneducated in it and refuse to become educated in it. That has nothing to do with going to see a psychiatrist, just the fact that if you wish to criticize something you should probably have all your facts straight.
 

CornPie

Patron Meritorious
1) Do you have like statistical analysis for "most people do have a bad impression of the psych industry." Like a paper on it even a pure survey, anything?

2) It is my experience that a majority of people view psychiatrists, psychologists and the general medical profession in pretty high regard.

3) I like this thread, I'll agree observationally there is an irrational hatred of a subject by people who are completely uneducated in it and refuse to become educated in it. That has nothing to do with going to see a psychiatrist, just the fact that if you wish to criticize something you should probably have all your facts straight.
1. Obviously I don't have any statistics. Everybody knows that people giggle about the psych profession. I've been hearing it all my life. They know it, you know it, the patients know it.

2. Psychs in high regard? :roflmao:<< CornPie's third icon. -- I think you are being disingenuous. And by the way, don't try to bring in the "general medical profession", the psychs put themselves into their own boat, on this. I've even seen a couple of MD's get the weebie-jeebies when it came to psychs. Maybe they are being politically correct when you're around, but they giggle about it when you leave, you must know that.

3. I don't hate psychs. Absent shock treatment and lobotomies I might even like them. I think trying different medications on people is a good idea, that's what MD's do, until they find a combination of meds that works, and they rarely cause permanent repercussions in the process. But I genuinely do not understand why psychs put themselves, and their patients, into a position of such ridicule. They're shooting themselves in the foot. I don't need to be educated in the subject to know that shock treatment and lobotomies cause a huge amount of the stigma. And even if I was educated in the subject, it wouldn't change the fact that most people would still be giggling. But until the psychs stop shock treatment and lobotomies 100% it will continue. Clinging to the 1/10th of 1% who get the treatment, makes them a sitting duck for the ridicule of everyone, including scientologists. They're doing just what the scilons want, making OSA's job easy. As long as there's 1 person getting shocked or lobotomized psychs will be huge sitting ducks. The profession should outlaw these practices.
 
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CornPie,
I think you need to show some evidence that the public has a low opinion of psychiatry. I kind of agree with you, but that is the public image I sense, and that is certainly not proof. Psychiatrist are often the butt of jokes, like the TV series Frazier or Mel Brooks' High Anxiety. Anyone for lunch with Hannibal Lecter?
The people that I know who are against psychiatry bring up their perception that they let crazy people out of jail or because of the insanity defense (which is really a legal ethics point, not a psychiatric point.) I have never heard a single person I know, or heard it mentioned in the media, that leads me to believe that the public cares anything about shock treatment. I have only heard Scientologists make a point about shock treatment over and over again. That doesn't make it public opinion. Where did you hear that the public has a low opinion of psychiatrist? (I don't doubt it though) Where did you hear that it is because of shock treatment? From CCHR? Where? There doesn't seem to be an outcry against public spending on psychiatry.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
Has there ever been evidence of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and such problems observed in the animal world, including apes, our closest relatives ?

What methods worked for these animals ? With animal studies, you can pretty much rule out the placebo effect, which makes the results more reliable.

(I know, you have a crazy cat, but I'm talking about a properly diagnosed case of an animal with a mental disease)

Have you ever observed a cat sitting and staring at an otherwise "empty" space. In humans that would called a symptom of Schizophrenia.

What makes you think you can rule out the placebo effect in animal studies? That sounds like a completely fallacious assumption.

Animals are not as stupid as the ape-descended bipeds who seek to dominate them.

Our current cat cost over $700.00 at the vet. At first we thought it was urinary--and cats aren't stupid. I've had several cats who have deliberately wazzed in an awkard/inconvenient/embarrassing place in order to attract attention to the problem. So the cat was catheterized and placed on anti-biotics etc., and within a couple of weeks the problem returned, just as badly. They discovered he had an inexplicable intestine blockage that was putting pressure in the wrong place, "mimicking" bladder problems. He was then put on a special diet, which he clearly hated, yet when we changed him back to his normal kibble, he now sits and waits for small serving of the medical one--he won't eat it as a whole meal, but he has learned the medicinal value of it and eats a little of it in the morning and again at night. Otherwise he is happy with his normal diet.

Overall, it would have been cheaper to put him down and get another cat--does anyone know where this procedure is practised with juvenile children?
 

AnonOrange

Gold Meritorious Patron
What makes you think you can rule out the placebo effect in animal studies? That sounds like a completely fallacious assumption.

Brian Dunning just made a podcast about placebos. It's excellent and a short 13 minutes. He talks about the placebo effect on animals towards the end.

Read or listen:
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4151

Have you considered that scientology is just one big placebo ?

Also, try this: Go to a Chinese medicine store and ask if they know about placebos or double blind studies. You'll be responded with blank stares.
 

Div6

Crusader
Scn is not the only religion to go to bat against organized medicine.
Christian Science has been at war for years.

This recent NY Times article is interesting in several respects:
1. Declining membership;
2. Moderation of zealous viewpoints;
3. Attempts to go mainstream.

At least they are HONEST about their membership numbers.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/24/nyregion/24heal.html


"Since the founding of their church 131 years ago, Christian Scientists have been taught to avoid doctors at all cost. It is a conviction rooted so deeply in church dogma that dozens of members have endured criminal prosecution rather than surrender an ailing person to what they see as the quackery of medical science.


But faced with dwindling membership and blows to their church’s reputation caused by its intransigence concerning medical treatment, even for children with grave illnesses, Christian Science leaders have recently found a new tolerance for medical care. For more than a year, leaders say, they have been encouraging members to see a physician if they feel it is necessary.

Perhaps more significantly, they have begun a public campaign to redefine their methods as a form of care that the broader public should consider as a supplement rather than a substitute for conventional treatment, like biofeedback, chiropractic or homeopathic care.

In recent years, the church has been lobbying to convince lawmakers that its approach is an alternative way of tending to the sick, and that its costs should be covered by insurance companies and included in health care legislation.

Lobbyists succeeded in getting provisions that encourage private insurance coverage of Christian Science care into both the 2006 legislation overhauling health care in Massachusetts and the United States Senate version of the health care overhaul; both measures were removed in negotiations. Church officials say they intend to keep trying, at both the state and federal level.

“In the last year, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been called to pray at a patient’s bedside in a hospital,” said Philip Davis, 59, the church’s national spokesman, who has been tending to the sick for three decades as a Christian Science practitioner. The church trains and registers its practitioners to help patients with their prayers. "


Full article at source.
 

Rene Descartes

Gold Meritorious Patron
1) Do you mean, "informed consent" like cops use to trick suspects into talking?

2 and 3) With shock your brain's fried. With the others you'll come back in tact.

I'd rather die than see a psych, due in no small part to this single practice. They're still doing and justifying it. With this alone, they bring on their own shame, as bad as scientology.

That's because you are healthy and your brain is healthy.

Instead of using ECST let's compare using radiation or chemo treament.

Now I wouldn't want that for all the money in the world at least in my current state. Then again I don;t have cancer.

But what I or you had cancer?

I would not want a limb amupatated.

But what if I had a limb that was so infected that if it was not amputated I would die?

I know someone who has MS and let me tell you this, if ECST could cure that person of the MS or even provide 10 years of relief from the symptoms of that MS I know that person would sign up for that ECST in a heartbeat.

Rd00
 

Rene Descartes

Gold Meritorious Patron
Let's not forget that Psychiatry has caused the destruction of every civilization that has ever existed over the last 570,000 gazillion years.

Rd00
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Body dysmorphia is interesting to me. I read a few books about it when I was a teen. I'm still interested in it, now. I'm not suggesting that a person should go to the Church or pay someone in the FreeZone for help with it, but if someone were in my area and had that issue, I would be happy to work on it with them, pro-bono, because I do think I could be of help. It's one of those conditions that strikes me as not possibly having a genetic or neurological cause. Much more likely to have psychological roots. Just my opinion, though.
 
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