Scientology's Toll on McPherson Case Medical Examiner Joan Wood

dianaclass8

Silver Meritorious Patron
well....I have known several "old timers" who gave up some of Hubbard's activities to their auditor. They were summarily declared SP and thrown out on their ear.
I figgered that's what would happen to ANYONE who did not follow the party line, and I was correct.
Frankly, I never thought that his drug use was out ethics. I thought that his "research" required that he know the subject that he was writing about.

The Introspection R/D has as a step on the program, an "Isolation" step.
Not everyone who is put on the Introspection R/D is put into Isolation.
There was a "pilot program" on psychosis done on the Flagship involving about 70 people, I think in 1970. Ralph Hilton knows when it was.

I have personally been involved with 2 people who were in Isolation. David Voorhies, who doesn't remember much about it, and Roxann Richards, who is now a vegetable and totally unable to care for herself. Barbara Schwartz is another, and you can read her on ARS.

There have been some true horror stories on here from some who were isolated if you care to look 'em up.

As for "accomplices", you are still promoting Hubbard tech, are you not? Hubbard wrote the R/D. Where does that put you on your own scale of "out ethics" accomplices?

O I know. " The FZ doesn't deliver the Introspection R/D."

But you do promote scn. Hubbard was the Founder. Leading anyone into praise of scn or L Ron Hubbard is to those of us who have drawn our heads out of the quicksand of scn, would thus consider you to be what you are condemning those of us who kept our mouths shut for 20 years to be.

Not everyone kept their mouth shut. There was no internet, communication was extremely limited, but there have always been stories in mags and newspapers and so forth that were given in interviews by people who got the "word out" as best they could.

I'll be watchingfor any sparks that fly my way.
Geez. I hope they can be distinguished from the BT/Cls that sometimes waft through.


Challenge

Hi challenge, thanks for your sincere response, I liked it...LOL I was not meaning you when I referred in this post.

I enjoyed reading your story the other day and I apreciate your being opened. Please do not judge me as if I were a Freezoner, I am not and I do not promote Hubbard, I just try to find a happy medium for the truth...sometimes I do struggle with things, but always with the eyes opened and paying attention to what people posts particularly to intelligent dissertations about what happened.

I personally was not saved by Scientology but it did help me understand things about a lot of stuff. But the topic is this Medical Examiner who changed the story, so many mistakes made by some, sadly some were so life changing for the worse.
 

dianaclass8

Silver Meritorious Patron
Wow! Very provocative and fascinating comments! I am planning to write something on this topic on my blog, and I would love to quote this if that is all right with you.

There is so much that we don't know but I hope that one day we will.

Thanks for taking your time with your long response...not too long to read.



Ok, that's the 'conondrum' of this.. The 'psyches' don't know any better.. True.. Fact is that nobody knows, which is also why the promises Hubbard made about Dianetics were so 'wished for'..

But you miss my point here.. In scientology you can be a perfectly well functioning and sane human being. And then somehow become 'Type Three' from Scientology? - I've SEEN that happen a couple of times.. Scientology 'prefessional' mental therapists 'diagnosong' individuals as 'type three'.. Much more often if I count Guardian's Office 'dedicated' staff, who would call everybody insane at the drop of a hat.

Sheesh.. I don't even know if some of the people who were 'dignosed' by auditors were locked up under guard.. Such things were NOT talked about. It was bad news.. It was 'entheta'!

But get this: If you get upset as hell, maybe because Scientology has ruined you financially and keeps on demanding that you buy some expensive service. And have you convinced in your own mind that you are an 'SP' and a 'downstat' because you ran out of money. You're sorry that you scientology wife think your'e a no good dweeb, non survivor and downstat too for those same reasons and because there's no money to feed the kids either.. See, you're a 'No Case Gain' 'red tagger' who failed to quadruple your income like Ron said you would from doing Scientology..

When all that shit gets too much and you have a screaming fit and yell about Scientology having destroyed your life.. Why, then you're a 'Type Three' right there!

So my point here is this: The people Scientology labels 'Type Three' are not. They are påeople Scientology itself drove over the edge, which is not psychotic.. Erh lemme' correct that. It IS psychotic! - Only it's the Scientology Organization and this behavior that is psychotic!

Hmm.. I tend to think it does.. If those scientology retards tried to lock me up someobne would probably die.. Ahrmmm.. Well, when I had to worry about that, I took care to blow suddenly and unexpected, So that the silly assholes did not get any chance at locking me up. You realize that I considered it very likely that they would.. Simply because I didn't want to be there anymore.

Yes.. It's certainly a very ineresting statement from Marty..

Hmm.. I don't know the intricate legalities..

But my take on the story so far.. And some of this is speculation. No help for it.. Speculatioin is what we must have, since OSA is industriously spewing shore stories to hide the facts:

Lisa would have been gettin very ill days before she did die. Dying of thirst makes you look very very bad! - And then you die! - So reports would have gone 'uplines' about how bad she was. Some 'authority' uplines, David Miscavige? - Is a hardass unreasonable scientologist who orders them to keep her locked up. No talking! Continue the programme.. - If she refuses to drink, why, then she doesn't get any! Right? - She'll come around when she gets thirsty enough. (Here you can get some insight into the techical mechanics that makes the Introspection Rundown work!)

Lisa is still protesting.. By refusing to drink. Maybe she suspects her scientology jailers of trying to give her poison.. I would! - These assholes kept her prisoner after all, and perversely pretends to be mutes while looking at her weird.

Question is, when did Lisa die? - In the ambulance, when they drove her halfway across the state? - Or maybe the administrative bureucracy with the reports and all uplines were days in response times? - Maybe one report said: 'Lisa McPherson lookis like she might die!', and the next day: 'Lisa McPherson has died!'.. But the scientologically encumbered staffers who were baby watching Lisa didn't dare to do ANYTHING without orders from on high! - Those orders came 2 days late.

What to do!? - Since we know that Scientology and OSA are involved we can make some educated guesses.. Put Lisa in a hot bathtub to raise her body temperature to normal and fool the coroner to belive a much later time of death! - Then drive her to a hospital where a scientology doctor is ready to receive her and ask no awkward questions.

You think this is a far out conspiracy theory!? - Look at Lisa's autopsy pics. To me she looks like it's been a while since she was alive. There was mention in the autopsy reports that Lisa was extraordinarily clean! - Having been 'baby watched' for over two weeks? - Or are we to believe that Lisa had a bath on the Introspection R/D?

Allright, I think they should have let Lisa McPherson go, when she clearly didn't want to be on the Introspection R/D.. But that is unthinkable for those scientology zealots of course.

Consider Lisa'a actions at the time of the car accident. I think it's quite obvious that she'd run away at that time. Her scientology 'conditioning' making her nervous and afraid.. Lisa wanted to escape from Scientology. When she had that little fender bender car accident she was on the run.

Lisa took off all her clothes after the car accident. When Paramedic Bonnie Portolano asked her why, she said: "I wanted people to think I'm crazy, so that I can get some help!" - She didn't mean help from Scientology is my guess!

Obviously Lisa believed that the 'evil psyches' would fetch her up when she acted crazy, and thus rescue her from Scientology.

:yes:
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
I don't know if her changes to her conclusions were due to intimidation from the cult or because of her own errata.
Are you talking about Joan Woods? - You ARE!! - Hot day'um!!

So you don't know that!?

I can only imagine an OSA PR idiot 'pretending' to not know that!! - In a studiously stupid attempt at PR damage control that is immediatly regretted because of it's glaring stupidity!

Ahrmm!!

Dehydration WILL lead to a bloodclot! And the bloodclot or the next one will most probably kill you. - That is how this stuff works really! - Joan Woods first conclusion was that Lisa died from a bloodclot that resulted from dehydration.. Ie. Lisa died of thirst, to say it in plain english.

But OSA didn't think plain english was any good.. So they 'persuaded' Woods to say Lisa died of a bloodclot, without mentioning anything about dehydration or thirst.

Lisa died of thirst! - We all know that! - Even OSA know that.. They're just pretending to not know it.

Do you know it now? - Or are you pretending?

:melodramatic:
 
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Challenge

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hi challenge, thanks for your sincere response, I liked it...LOL I was not meaning you when I referred in this post.

I enjoyed reading your story the other day and I apreciate your being opened. Please do not judge me as if I were a Freezoner, I am not and I do not promote Hubbard, I just try to find a happy medium for the truth...sometimes I do struggle with things, but always with the eyes opened and paying attention to what people posts particularly to intelligent dissertations about what happened.

I personally was not saved by Scientology but it did help me understand things about a lot of stuff. But the topic is this Medical Examiner who changed the story, so many mistakes made by some, sadly some were so life changing for the worse.

Thanks for clarifying, Diana.
I have no quarrel with you excepting your calling Exs here "idiots" and "morons".
I think that we have *all* seen quite enough of that. Attacking those who are feeling safe enuff to come forward with what they know does not send an invitation to smack them down.
I don't care if you are orv are not a FZer. Or an Indie. Or a Martyite.
The only ones that I have seen to bash sincere critics have been members of a group still trying to whitewash L Ron Hubbard.

Yah, tis a sad story about Dr Wood, even sadder that Lisa McPherson died a horrible death at the hands of a group that she trusted.

Challenge
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
It smells like OSA did there usual dig, dig, dig for dirt on Joan Wood and used it on her to get her to change her medical opinion.

What person who was ever in scientology over a few hours does not know that Hubbard advocating getting dirt on "enemies"?

On wonder Marty boasts he knows more about the "murder" of Lisa McPherson and he says he destroyed ( or had destroyed ) documents relating to her last few days.
But................he ain't saying what.

And, gawd help me, some people here see Marty as " reformed" and " helpful "....
Excuse me while I BARF.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Are you talking about Joan Woods? - You ARE!! - Hot day'um!!

So you don't know that!?

I can only imagine an OSA PR idiot 'pretending' to not know that!! - In a studiously stupid attempt at PR damage control that is immediatly regretted because of it's glaring stupidity!

Ahrmm!!

Dehydration WILL lead to a bloodclot! And the bloodclot or the next one will most probably kill you. - That is how this stuff works really! - Joan Woods first conclusion was that Lisa died from a bloodclot that resulted from dehydration.. Ie. Lisa died of thirst, to say it in plain english.

But OSA didn't think plain english was any good.. So they 'persuaded' Woods to say Lisa died of a bloodclot, without mentioning anything about dehydration or thirst.

Lisa died of thirst! - We all know that! - Even OSA know that.. They're just pretending to not know it.

Do you know it now? - Or are you pretending?

:melodramatic:

WTF?

Are you kidding or just having a language barrier moment?

Of course I know Lisa died of dehydration. And it's criminal and I've said so many times.

What I don't know is why Woods changed her story. I don't know if the cult pressured her. It wouldn't surprise me if they did, but I don't know. I've seen MEs fuck up. I always thought she fucked up. Now it turns out the cult may've pressured her and that's why she changed her story.

I said I didn't know cuz I didn't know.

I'm now going to report your post for the OSA accusation. Have a nice day.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Nibs on why his father, L Ron Hubbard, didn't always want his enemies dead . . .

. . . Well, he didn't really want people killed, because how could you really destroy them if you just killed them? What he wanted to do was to destroy their lives, their families, their reputations, their jobs, their money, everything. My father was the type of person who, when it came to destruction, wanted to keep you alive for as long as possible, to torture you, punish you. If he chose to destroy you, he would love to see you lying in the gutter, strung out on booze and drugs, rolling in your own vomit, with your wife and children gone forever: no job, no money. He'd enjoy walking by and kicking you and saying to other people, "Look what I did to this man!" He's the kind of man who would pull the wings off flies and watch them stumble around. You see, this fits in with his Scientology beliefs, also. He felt that if you just died, your spirit would go out and get another body to live in. By destroying an enemy that way, you'd be doing him a favor. You were letting him out from under the thumb of L. Ron. Hubbard, you see? . . .

RIP Joan.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
So is it general knowledge that Joan's mind change was due to CofS' harassment? I had truly thought it was incompetence. And if I was wrong, I was wrong. But I never actually knew the story behind Joan Wood's changing of hre mind.

Do any of the former CofS uber management/former OSA know and can tell me? (Without attacking me, please?)

Looking for information here.
 
You should read the chapter in the book "Inside Scientology" about Lisa McP - it seems like a fairly lucid account of the story and the pressures the church mounted against the M.E. to get her to revise her testimony.

Mimsey
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
So is it general knowledge that Joan's mind change was due to CofS' harassment? <snip>
Allright.. I never doubted it personally.. That's from knowing Scientology's & The Guardian's Office Policies on that sort of things.. The moment that critics made an issue of Lisa's Death and there was a courtcase coming up, policy is to seek any avenue to 'handle' the case. This is a no holds barred thing.. There's no intent to keep by the rules of the 'WOG Justice System' at all.

So 'approaching' Joan Woods and pestering her to revise her findings is simply too obviously what the GO/OSA would do within the hour! - They'd sweettalk her. They'd bribe her. They'd investigate her, silently and noisily. They'd blackmail her. They'd treathen her, gaslight her, run black ops on her to make her do it.

All that is in Policy! - They do it every damn time!

So they 'got to Joan Woods'.. Something or other of the above methods 'worked'.. That is obvious, to me anyway..

Yet.. I really don't see why the courtcase fell because of Woods changing her statement. The court could have proven that the revision was coerced. This would have been of great benefit to all of us.. Having Scientology & OSA shown to disrupt the legal preceedings and influencing an expert witness.

But, all her peers in the legal system blamed it all on her, while failing to 'see' Scientology's involvement. They call Woods a jerk for failing to stand up to Scientology. But they are themselves jerks. They gave in to a simple and rather silly 'legal caper' by Scientology.

:yes:
 

Pooks

MERCHANT OF CHAOS
So is it general knowledge that Joan's mind change was due to CofS' harassment? I had truly thought it was incompetence. And if I was wrong, I was wrong. But I never actually knew the story behind Joan Wood's changing of hre mind.

Do any of the former CofS uber management/former OSA know and can tell me? (Without attacking me, please?)

Looking for information here.


From all the evidence it seems apparent that Joan Woods was harassed into changing her mind.

They completely overwhelmed and scared the bejesus out of her. She capitulated.

This was part the the cult's strategy to destroy the Lisa McP case and it worked.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Thanks, Pooks, good to know. It's totally consistent with what the cult truly would do, but I'd never thought of it before. I'm sure I should have, but, just hadn't.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Some might tend to agree the lynchpin in the death of Lisa Mcpherson case against the C o $ was the cause of death.

Who was responsible for stating the cause of death? The ME

So who and what did that make a target of attack per long established doctrine of the church?
DUH !

I really really find it extremely hard to swallow that anybody who has been been at least around the block once with scientology by having ANY involvement at all with it past the comm course could say something to effect of " it didn't occur to them that the church would attack the ME ".

That one really floored me. Guess one never knows who posts here :biggrin:
 
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I think they use the shotgun approach to legal problems - attack it from as many angles as possible, legal or not, till they either win or the problem goes away.

I was talking to someone at the hollywood literacy project and she said just stopping a news story from being printed is a huge win, nevermind changing the reporters mind and getting a positive story. Similar deal here. Do anything to get the case dropped.

It really is too bad Scn doesn't have any OT porn stars under their belt to let loose on judges, ME's etc. - would that for make some jucy press if it got found out...

Just wishing...

Mimsey
 

SchwimmelPuckel

Genuine Meatball
<snip> It really is too bad Scn doesn't have any OT porn stars under their belt to let loose on judges, ME's etc. - would that for make some jucy press if it got found out...

Just wishing...

Mimsey
What makes you think they don't?

There's the Miss Bloodybutt 'incident'.. Which has sex, blood and conflict. A young woman from Holland parading around in bare tits and butt.. She wasn't an OT though.. GO/OSA did intend something with this creative and elaborate 'mission', that is 'scripted' from Hubbard's Mission Earth SF tale.. But it truly eludes me what that could be..

:unsure:
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Some might tend to agree the lynchpin in the death of Lisa Mcpherson case against the C o $ was the cause of death.

Who was responsible for stating the cause of death? The ME

So who and what did that make a target of attack per long established doctrine of the church?
DUH !

I really really find it extremely hard to swallow that anybody who has been been at least around the block once with scientology by having ANY involvement at all with it past the comm course could say something to effect of " it didn't occur to them that the church would attack the ME ".

That one really floored me. Guess one never knows who posts here :biggrin:

It seems amazing and appalling to me that anyone here would be so intolerant of the shortcomings and shortfalls of others as to post shit like this.

Yeah, I didn't know. Yeah, it should have occurred to me. So what. There's plenty of stuff that probably doesn't occur to you guys, either.
I've seen everyone have their moments where they don't see stuff that's right in front of them.

It really appalls me that I would be attacked for not seeing something. I really hate like fuck to break it to you, but I'm an imperfect human being and I have my air headed moments. I have this in common with roughly 99.9999% of the human population. However, I cheerfully and candidly admitted it.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
One thing that strikes me as fascinating with the Co$ is the predictable actions that it always plods down the exact same course with time and time again.

However, when "in" Scientology we're all pumped full of the BS of being an individual and human rights and individual decisions are analytical while the rest of society is a dead grave yard of stimulus-response push-button automatons incapable of rational or independent thought and all suffering of group think and reactive mind and all that.

All the PR and advertising is all push-button response stuff of pictures and command phrases - if you originate some "enemy line" from your own observations the invest is all about "who told you that", etc., implying that you're incapable of thinking or observing for yourself.

Yet, demonstrably, it is just the opposite. Scientology and Scientologists are stimulus-response, at least to the predictability of their responses and actions are concerned. The "command intention" utters a phrase like "other fish to fry" and it's soon the mantra of the flock.

On one thread I read about the engineer who alerted the Freewinds group about the blue asbestos and was ignored because LRH hadn't any policies regarding that. Clear thinking and rational, that!

180 degree opposite.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
It seems amazing and appalling to me that anyone here would be so intolerant of the shortcomings and shortfalls of others as to post shit like this.

Yeah, I didn't know. Yeah, it should have occurred to me. So what. There's plenty of stuff that probably doesn't occur to you guys, either.
I've seen everyone have their moments where they don't see stuff that's right in front of them.

It really appalls me that I would be attacked for not seeing something. I really hate like fuck to break it to you, but I'm an imperfect human being and I have my air headed moments. I have this in common with roughly 99.9999% of the human population. However, I cheerfully and candidly admitted it.

Your ire at the "shit" I posted is noted.

And if my post gets deleted it won't have been deleted by me.

Now... moving along :)
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Oh, ok. Rad. Next time I'll just lie and say I knew it all along and that I never make mistakes or misunderstand anything. Historically speaking, this approach has [STRIKE]never [/STRIKE]always worked [STRIKE]horribly[/STRIKE] well. But if what's the people want, then that's what they should have...

Thanks for your patience and understanding with a fellow human being who has also been trying to figure out wtf to think re Scn and who, like most here, came to the internetz seeking information about what is truly going on.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Oh, ok. Rad. Next time I'll just lie and say I knew it all along and that I never make mistakes or misunderstand anything. Historically speaking, this approach has [STRIKE]never [/STRIKE]always worked [STRIKE]horribly[/STRIKE] well. But if what's the people want, then that's what they should have...

Thanks for your patience and understanding with a fellow human being who has also been trying to figure out wtf to think re Scn and who, like most here, came to the internetz seeking information about what is truly going on.

I think this is one time that I disagreed with something you posted.

I never expect anyone to be perfect, and, something many have heard out of my mouth is " Right after I achieve perfection I'll start demanding perfection of others. So relax...... I'll never be perfect...ever .. so I won't be asking for or expecting perfection from anybody...ever"

If I was overly harsh in the way I said what I said, for that, I apologize to you.

Each of got here our own way - and sometimes I manage to not remember for a rough nasty road it was for many ( me included ).

You have made many fine posts I enjoyed from the first day I started lurking here.
 
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