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Scn minus greed, deceit & brainwashing

Discussion in 'Life After Scientology' started by Veda, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Would there be anything good left?

    I think there would be.

    Does anyone care to make a list?

    Any suggestions?

    Basic auditing without the tricks and control mechanisms?

    Some early experimental processes.

    The good intentions (from, granted naive members) to help others.

    ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  2. Dulloldfart

    Dulloldfart Squirrel Extraordinaire

    The good bits of Scientology? I would be interested in seeing such a list, compiled honestly, although I don't see it happening on ESMB. Claire Swazey posted an off-the-cuff list here many years ago that I thought was excellent, far better than the off-the-cuff list I was struggling with.

    If it helps, I put in a lot of work (in 2004) creating a checklist of about 200 "elements of standard tech". The idea was to use it -- with appropriate weighting -- to compare different parts of the Scn world as to their "standardness." This might be useful to scan through to indicate some raisins to pluck out of the etc.

    http://fzglobal.org/comparison.htm

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
    Hypatia and Veda like this.
  3. Xenu Xenu Xenu

    Xenu Xenu Xenu Patron Meritorious

    There might be a few, and I mean few things left that are good. I still wouldn't waste my time with it. It's not like any of it was earth shatteringly beneficial or worth a Nobel Prize. I would rather forget it all and I have succeeded to a large degree.
     
  4. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Do it now - make it go right- the way out is the way through, keep your eye on the goal - watch out for responsible for condition personality types - they be trouble. Establish good communication though use of common reality. Be good at being bullbaited by others without reacting adversely, don't create antagonism. Grant people beingness, try to avoid destructive eval and inval. Don't make excuses for fuckups.

    Them's good parts. Too bad I don't follow them as much as I should.

    Mimsey
     
  5. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    I think the Grades and most of the training on these are great.

    I think the scales and gradients are too. The triangles ARC and KRC...all that stuff.

    They are merely tools. What makes 'em bad is the blame, shame, guilt and manipulation.
     
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  6. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    For basic SCN auditing, it would have to get a long going interest in wog scientific communities.
    Then it would get appropriate testing with critical reviews and re-testing.

    Today, I don't think that neuroscience is yet advanced enough for this. Maybe in a few decades from now.
     
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  7. He-man

    He-man Hero extraordinary

    If you take away the greed, deceit and the brainwashing you've pretty much scrubbed Scientology clean all the way to how it was prior to Dianetics in the 50's.

    Are you referring to the Way to happiness? I mean I suppose that would be left there somewhere.
     
    Emma likes this.
  8. La La Lou Lou

    La La Lou Lou Crusader

    There's something in the comm cycle. You need to intend that the other person gets what you're saying and it is only polite to let them know you heard, even if you completely disagree. I did get some gains from sitting opposite people and eventually being a bit more comfortable near people. Hardly worth the weeks it took though, I could have sat in a tube train instead. Having blinkless scary stary eyes was interesting. Bullbaiting was serious fun! It was also useful to be able to scream at ashtrays white sitting on the London Org roof, the neighbours loved it, pointing and laughing, did no good for PR though.

    So in short the comm cycle sentence and TR0 bullbaiting was worth the thousands of pounds and lost youth, and subsequent many hours of counselling. Thank you Rong.
     
  9. Emma

    Emma Con te partirĂ² Administrator

    I'm interested in what you think Veda. What's good?
     
  10. guanoloco

    guanoloco As-Wased

    ...also...clay demos, the 3 basket comm system and Thursday at 2 are must haves!
     
  11. George2

    George2 Patron

    I agree clay demos seem helpful, doing things on a gradient too. Finishing com cycles. Touch assists might have helped some. Touch is so important so if touch assist was the only way you got touch, it probably was good. These are things that you didn't need Scientology for and certainly not worth the pain and brainwashing you get. I actually didn't get a whole lot of training nor auditing even though I was raised Scientologist so I wouldn't know later stuff.
     
  12. Veda

    Veda Sponsor

    Outside of the cult environment, assuming one is curious or so inclined, off hand, I would say some things in the lower grades, and perhaps some parts of the TRs. And some other things, no doubt, which don't come to mind at this moment.

    Background​

    Having been happily off lines from that organization since 1976 - happy to be away from Scientology with its monthly price increases (1976 IIRC), its LSD sweat program (1977, later the Purif), its Dianetic Clear mass frenzy (1978, after which I could no longer ignore the hypnotic power that Hubbard had over most Scientologists), Its new Grade Chart (circa 1980/81) which removed the few upper (and mostly fun, recycled Rosicrucianism) OT levels and replaced them with ridiculously expensive, absurdly hyped, New Era Dianetics for OTs (where people who thought they had removed all their "fleas" on OT 3 were told they had lots more "fleas" that needed to be "blown") - I hadn't given much thought to Scientology until I read the transcript of the 1982 Mission holders massacre. It was obvious that the people running Scientology were self-important sophomoric idiots and it wasn't going to get any better.

    There was an ongoing exodus of (more or less) like minded people from Scientology, fed up with management, etc., and there were places where auditing was being done apart from the control of the organization. Curious about auditing while free of all the organizational red tape and formalities (I had audited INSIDE Scientology), I became loosely associated with what was then called the "Independent Field" and found a (nice new, relatively untouched by Scientology) "pc" who I audited intensively for several months on (at his request) 'Self Analysis lists (on a meter), some Objectives, Dianetic R3R, the Lower Grades, and few other obscure (mostly recycled Rosicrucianism-type) processes from the 1950s.

    When it came time for my (Independent Field) "pc" (who was doing very well) to begin the confidential "upper levels," I advised him to abstain with the explanation that this was L. Ron Hubbard's "case." He took my advice.

    That experience - even though I was still naive in many ways - gave me an additional perspective.

    Below is a re-post from the "Quit fast" thread (the title being inspired by 'Keeping Scientology Working' (1965): "When someone enrolls, consider he or she has joined up for the duration of the universe - never permit an 'open minded' approach. If they're going to quit let them quit fast. If they're enrolled... turn that wandering doubt in [their] eyes into a fixed dedicated glare..."

    Here are a few accounts of people who - although they had some positive experiences with Scientology - decided to "quit fast" - although Scientology, inevitably, did try to recover them, and sometimes threatened them - to no avail.

    ____________​

    There were people, in the 1960s, who became briefly involved in Scientology, during the days of the old Grade Chart, and went up to Power Processing, were happy with the results, and then left, never to return. IIRC, there was a steady flow of Swedes who went to St. Hill for Power Processing (the Grade after Grade 4 and before "R6 End Words" which was before the Clearing Course). They did their Power Processing, were happy, said goodbye, and never had anything to do with Scientology after that.

    They definitely knew something that we didn't.

    I recall one young woman from the 1970s, from Puerto Rico. She spoke English poorly and was extremely shy. She came to the "Org" and did the Comm Course, and a few other courses, then the Student Hat, and she improved, and she became extroverted, and her English improved, and then she did something I didn't understand at the time: She quit Scientology, went back to Puerto Rico, and had nothing further to do with Scientology.

    There were others who did the same sort of thing. Dipped their toes in Scientology, got something out of it, then got the heck away from it.

    All the Scientologists thought they were foolish and were missing out, etc. Some thought they must have hidden crimes, or at least lots of misunderstood words.

    Ah! But these folks who got away from Scientology were so wise.

    Comm Courses were known for this. People would do them, have a good time, have "VGIs," and then leave.


    The most notable Comm Course story, of which I know, is a fellow who did the just released "Hard TRs Course" in the early 1970s. This person regarded the Comm Course (briefly, then, also the "Hard TRs Course") as an inexpensive means of therapy for his wife (it cost, I think, 35 dollars) and a kind of odd head-trip (quasi Zen meditation intensive) for himself.

    It took about a month, and I think his wife benefited - was more emotionally stable - and he seemed to get a kick out of it too.

    This person had the wisdom to recognize that this was probably as good as Scientology was going to get - especially judging by money-spent/potential benefit ratio - and firmly rejected any future involvement with Scientology afterwards.

    He ensured this future non-involvement in a novel manner, when he wrote his "Success Story" at the end of the course, describing how (to paraphrase) "Now that I've completed the TRs Course, I'm going to become a leader in the Hare Krishna movement."

    This was particularly irritating to the Scientology officials as, at the time, shaven-headed Hare Krishna chanters in saffron robes were ubiquitous in the streets outside the Org.

    [​IMG]

    He was labelled a "squirrel," and that ended his and his wife's involvement with Scientology.

    A wise man.
     
  13. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    Isn't all of Scientogy imbued with the SP doctrine and, if so, how can any of it be "good" if that part of it which make Scientology a hate group colours all of it? Trains running on time is good, but what say those trains were taking Innocents to harm?
     
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  14. lotus

    lotus stubborn rebel sheep!

    The clipboard
    I love this tech I then used to have and ethical executive presence in my wog company!

    :D


    Okay..the tr's taught me how to listen and to remain still no matter what....but the whole tr's tech was not of value to me.

    Also, the auditor who delivered my life repair was fantastic..he became a friend of mine.
    But I think the wins are more related to being listened to by this great guy than to the process itself.

    Nerve assist was good to make me and others relax. (Never seen it healed anything though) Touch assist made me cringe though.

    :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  15. programmer_guy

    programmer_guy True Ex-Scientologist

    Yes, SP/PTS doctrine is a big part of Scientology.
    However, the intensity of the practice of it varies between org levels (i.e. Sea Org, Class 5 org, franchise missions).
    IMO, the higher you go the worse it can get because the top leader has narcissistic personality disorder.

    (BTW, I find it to be very ironic that Hubbard was a suppressive person.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  16. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    I disagree. I get what you mean about intensity but wonder if, perhaps, you might be conflating Scientology's SP Doctrine with it's adjunct Fair Game? Perhaps not and I'm missing something.

    The way I see it, Scientologists are made to believe that their own and, indeed, the whole world's problems stem from SPs. And there's no gradient to SPs, it's another of Scientology's absolutes; one is either an SP or not. And Scientologists are made to believe that SPs are worthy only of hate. Disconnection is mandatory and the least of what L Ron Hubbard dictates should be done to them. While not every Scientologists will actively participate in the destruction of an SP, there are many who will. Specialists, in fact, all trained up in Scientology. But, here I'm teaching over into Fair Game.

    And, no: L Ron Hubbard was not an SP because he never told the truth about himself or Scientology. Being an SP has nothing to do with being a sociopath which L Ron Hubbard almost certainly was.
     
  17. Emma

    Emma Con te partirĂ² Administrator

    Not really. That's a part of it. The other problems are overts, withholds, problems, ser facs, lack of havingness, bad communication, engrams, BTs, personal out ethics, MUs etc.

    PTS/SP is just one course.

    All enemies are SPs.
     
  18. Roland ami

    Roland ami Patron with Honors

    There is a form of psychotherapy called Traumatic Incident Reduction that is effectively a re-written version of the lower bridge - the T.I.R. process itself is more or less NED - that has been peer-reviewed and has shown effectiveness at traumatic incident reduction, and as such is accepted by the psychological community. The words are changed (to avoid copyright issues), and by and large it gets rid of all the Church nonsense. As the equivalent of an auditor you are expected to do what it takes to help your client, not abide by the rules at all costs, for example.
    It was started by a psychiatrist called Serge Gerbode, with the help of David Mayo, and openly acknowledges its debt to Scientology, though it doesn't stress it.
    Auditing essentially becomes a real life repair, with no need for "going up the bridge" or any of the other happy stuff we are all overly familiar with.
     
  19. Infinite

    Infinite Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller

    Hmmmmm . . . not sure. Will ponder. Might have to change my mind and that takes me ages these days.
     
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  20. La La Lou Lou

    La La Lou Lou Crusader

    Yes I can see similarities, and differences. https://www.treatmentsolutions.com/therapies/traumatic-incident-reduction/ But then if traumatic events have effected someones life talking about them to desenitise them is pretty logical. It's the basis of all counselling isn't it? I'm sure Freud was doing this too. Hubbard is not the only sauce. I doubt very much if they use anything like R3R.