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Sea Org Children: The Final Solution

cadet

Patron
The previous poster used the term totalitarian.

I think that is right on.

There are political similarities. I understand that the people of North Korea are taught that the rest of the world is in terrible suffering under the boot heel of capitalism, that NK is the only sane and good place under the beneficence o the beloved leaders.

If they could only see that they are living in one of the most repressive and impoverished areas -- or have a picture of the Korean peninsula from satellite at night. North Korea is dark as a tomb but for a few "show case" areas. South Korea is aglow from stem to stern in contrast.

It seems too painfully similar that people who are "in" think it is horrifying "out here" in the "wog world," and that they have the only hold on solutions or ethics.

In both cases (NK and CoS), the demonization of the rest of the world coupled with suppression (I don't use that word lightly), control, and cut communications with the rest of the world result in gulags -- one focused on a gulag of the soul, the other of the political body.

Good post.

When it comes to the kids this aspect of it so pervasive and overwhelming, in a way that it could never be for those who ever had a life before Scientology. In a "religion" about the supposed science of knowledge, children are never given a chance to make their own decision.

When it is all you have ever known and all you have ever been told, it becomes a completely unexamined fact. You are told and come to believe that the sky is blue and the sun will rise in the east are equal in truth to the fact that you will suffer immeasurably in everlasting pain if you leave.

Then you get tossed out on your ass by those same people with nowhere to go and no one to help you. Super theta!
 

Man de la Mancha

Patron with Honors
When it is all you have ever known and all you have ever been told...
I knew several people in the Sea Org who had been in Scn since early childhood, and I have often wondered what sort of unique challenges they might face in the "real world". Many lifetime Scientologists had integrated the entire Scientology dictionary into their vocabularies, which is fine as long as everyone around you also speaks Scn-ese.

Even after just 4 year in Scn, I recall resisting the urge to say things like "make it go right" and "enturbulate" unless I was with Scientologists. I never did stop saying "make it go right", and the 'wogs' love it. On the other hand, "Dev-T" or "not-is" might be more problematic.

Did any lifetime or longtime Scientologists ever have difficulty expressing themselves in everyday "wog world" situations?

I would also like to say to all those raised in Scientology that, while you may not be 100% accustomed to the "wog world", most of it is less demanding and more compassionate. The average "wog" isn't going to care that you were in Scientology, and many will be interested in a first hand account. Be honest and don't act like you have something to hide. Don't abandon everything you may have gotten from Scientology just because you leave the church. As a Scientology kid, you are probably able to work 16 hours a day without blinking. That gives you a big advantage in the "wog world". Use this as a springboard to make your life whatever you want it to be, with or without Scientology.

Also, please tell me if I should make a new thread for this. I'm sort of a message board rookie.
 

Crashed Alien

Patron with Honors
I had to jump in here.

LRH created the Cadet Org and under his direct watch, during his life as "source" I and countless other children were abused, malnourished, mistreated, neglected and abandoned, with his absolute knowledge and at least his tacit consent.

So I feel 100% confident is stating that LRH hated family ties. Fuck LRH and fuck anyone who defends him.

And for the love of all things holy, can you people please stop talking about the barley formula? Is the thread entitled Sea Org Children: The Final Solution or Sea Org Children: The worst thing that ever happened to them was Barley Formula?

cadet,

You certainly did just jump in here.

You may be very upset about something, but your anger and hatred has overwhelmed and masked what you are probably trying to say which is a shame as what have to say is probably of great value.

In my view, what came across in your post was a reactionary response to something that you did not like... What you put was inflammatory and so far as I can see could easily get others, including the recipient (me) very upset...

Therefore, I can only say that it was not only ill considered but was also ill mannered.

That kind of post is likely to spark hostility and anger, rather than open up a subject and get a clearer picture of what is trying to be said...

If you have something to say, then please do so, but please do not behave like a thug, as I am sure you are not one... But this is what came across in your post (from my view as the recipient).

From my experience, hatred is an emotion that usually destroys the person who is doing the hating and rarely even touches the thing that is hated...

I know this as I have in the past had pretty extreme hatred myself - It did me no favours and no good at all and I would say probably did me a great deal of harm. i.e. I did myself a great deal of harm by hating... it is corrosive and eats away at one... Not good at all my friend, not good at all.

Most of us here have issues with aspects of Scientology or the Sea-Organisation, or we would not be here... Some worse than others, some none at all but they like to jump in and seem important, some who lurk, some who stir up trouble, etc...

However, all are people with unique experiences, shared experiences and most of all with feelings. You included.

I did find your post quite offensive as it not only inferred something that was not even mentioned by saying "F**k LRH and f**k anyone who defends him"... I was neither attacking nor defending him...

I should also point out that you have effectively stated in your post that you are unwilling to discuss it any further with the words "So I feel 100% confident is stating that LRH hated family ties. F**k LRH and f**k anyone who defends him."

Your opinion is obviously very important... So why not discuss it in a manner that allows it to be discussed.

I am still trying to come to terms with what I have recently discovered as well as the experiences that I have had - I have many contradictions and missing details that I am trying to sort out. I have family and friends still on staff, I have family and friends still completely involved with the subject of Scientology.

I have been involved since 1964... I grew up living, breathing and eating the subject, the ethos, the way of life...

This is a very difficult time for me. I am in a state of turmoil and am trying to sort this out... You may understand if you have ever been involved and immersed in the subject, or you may not.

However, if you choose to continue posting in this manner, you are likely to become labelled as a trouble maker, or even a fanatic by me and possibly even by others and then you would have no voice, you would have silenced yourself...

That would not help you at all, would it? It certainly would not help anyone else when you did say something important as you would be ignored in the same way that you would ignore the rantings of a fanatic or lunatic...

Whatever you do, please consider your words and why you are saying them, put those details down in your post so that we can see where you are coming from... I personally would love to know as I really do like people and really do care - If you do not want to , then fair enough, that too is up to you...

I hope you read this in the constructive an friendly manner in which I wrote it.

Whatever you do, I wish you well.

Crash
 

Crashed Alien

Patron with Honors
I knew several people in the Sea Org who had been in Scn since early childhood, and I have often wondered what sort of unique challenges they might face in the "real world". Many lifetime Scientologists had integrated the entire Scientology dictionary into their vocabularies, which is fine as long as everyone around you also speaks Scn-ese.

Even after just 4 year in Scn, I recall resisting the urge to say things like "make it go right" and "enturbulate" unless I was with Scientologists. I never did stop saying "make it go right", and the 'wogs' love it. On the other hand, "Dev-T" or "not-is" might be more problematic.

Did any lifetime or longtime Scientologists ever have difficulty expressing themselves in everyday "wog world" situations?

I would also like to say to all those raised in Scientology that, while you may not be 100% accustomed to the "wog world", most of it is less demanding and more compassionate. The average "wog" isn't going to care that you were in Scientology, and many will be interested in a first hand account. Be honest and don't act like you have something to hide. Don't abandon everything you may have gotten from Scientology just because you leave the church. As a Scientology kid, you are probably able to work 16 hours a day without blinking. That gives you a big advantage in the "wog world". Use this as a springboard to make your life whatever you want it to be, with or without Scientology.

Also, please tell me if I should make a new thread for this. I'm sort of a message board rookie.

Man de la Mancha,

Thank you for that... It was really great. I have been in Scientology since 1964 and have been operating in the non-Scientology arena for a long time.

I really understand what you are saying...

Crash
 

solo

Patron with Honors
Axion142,

I know... I meant if it were being made to the old recipe. The Romans used honey (They also added alcohol to make a great drink apparently...)

I know about the FSA stance on honey and I myself would not, and have not taken that chance with my children.



I also think it is madness to use it as the only food... I have experience of three of my own children growing up and know a lot about nutrition, health and so forth. I am always careful to ensure that they have loads of fresh food, fruit, vegetables as well as cooked food... and their fair share of sweets of course

The abstract you gave is an appalling case... I am horrified buy it... It is interesting how people in the Church seem to become zombies with no apparent ability to use common sense or show signs of rational thought or self-determinism... I am pretty much speechless about the poor child...

I would have hoped that this report would induce a social reaction and that the child would be taken into care until such time as the parents were fit to look after her...

Again, sorry for any confusion...

Crash

Hi Crash,

in my experience as a nanny at London Org, the babies there were fed the barley formula as their sole source of nutrition, because Ron said it was good for them, and their parents were "on source" execs who followed his advice on everything.

Solo
 

Crashed Alien

Patron with Honors
Hi Crash,

in my experience as a nanny at London Org, the babies there were fed the barley formula as their sole source of nutrition, because Ron said it was good for them, and their parents were "on source" execs who followed his advice on everything.

Solo

Hi Solo,

Thanks for that - It is an interesting point being "on source" which once meant understanding and using the technology in the context in which it was written.

Somehow, and I am not sure when or how or why, it became, "Follow the words without thinking or using them in context"... Even a sub-set of the words appears to be acceptable!

May not seem that bad, but an example was me being "regged" to buy the entire set of books and tapes for the basics... I told the person it would not be necessary as a friend of mine had bought them and had offered me the use of them if I ever wanted to do the course...

Nice friend, I love her dearly... Very kind offer.

The "Reg" told me that LRH has stated that each student must have their own set of materials and that I must buy them...

I knew this was a bunch of, so I asked for the policy he was referring to...

He had to get it so called me back in a couple of hours.

Turned out it was stated in a policy, but in the context that the organisation was not a library for people to use when studying... When a person was on course, they could not "borrow" items from the org, they must bring their own...

It did not state that it must be their own personal copy, it was that it was not one of the org's copies...

Take that to extremes and people are being "Told" that it is on policy and are following it blindly without question...

No one seems to question anything, or even read the policies..

No wonder things have gone to pot!

Crash
 

Veda

Sponsor
For some, even "in context," this sort of stuff is not acceptable:

From 7 March 1965, 'Suppressive Acts, Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists, the Fair Game Law':

"A suppressive person or group becomes 'fair game'.

"By Fair Game is meant, without rights for self, possessions or position, and no Scientologist may be brought before a Committee of Evidence or punished for any action taken against a Suppressive Person or group...

"Suppressive acts are defined as actions or omissions undertaken to knowingly suppress, reduce, or impede Scientology or Scientologists.

"Such suppressive acts include public disavowal of Scientology... public statements against Scientology.

"[Suppressive acts also include] continued membership in a divergent group; continued adherence to a Suppressive Person or group pronounced a Suppressive Person or group by HCO; failure to handle or disavow or disconnect from a person demonstrably guilty of suppressive acts; being at the hire of anti-Scientology groups or persons...

"[Suppressive acts also include] 1st degree murder, arson, disintegration of persons or belongings not [emphasis added] guilty of suppressive acts.

"[Suppressive Persons] place themselves beyond any consideration for their feelings or well being...

"The homes, property, places, and abodes of persons who have been active in attempting to suppressive Scientology... are all beyond any protection."


And,

15 August 1969, 'Discipline - SPs and Administration'

"I'm not interested in wog morality... if anyone is getting industrious trying to enturbulate or stop Scientology or its activities, I can make Captain Bligh look like a Sunday School teacher."

And there's lots more where that came from... :)


According to L. Ron Hubbard, the context for Scientology is a universe dominated by suppressive psych implanters, with a dwindling spiral sucking beings down to becoming "BTs" and then "MEST," with Scientology the "only hope for Man." In that context, almost anything is justifiable to "Keep Scientology Working."
 
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Cherished

Silver Meritorious Patron
Forget it. I will go back to lurking.
Don't do that, cadet.

Both you and crash are entitled to say what you think and express how you feel. It's okay that you feel angry and express it. Many of us are comfortable with that. Anger is a legitimate response to injustice.

I can see that crash may have felt your post directed at him and your anger also. That probably wasn't helpful for him. But do keep communicating, won't you?
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Don't do that, cadet.

Both you and crash are entitled to say what you think and express how you feel. It's okay that you feel angry and express it. Many of us are comfortable with that. Anger is a legitimate response to injustice.

I can see that crash may have felt your post directed at him and your anger also. That probably wasn't helpful for him. But do keep communicating, won't you?

I second this.

Lurking is better than doing nothing, but you will get a lot more out of participating. We have a broad range of views here and sometimes things get a little heated. Personally I have greatly benefitted by having my views and opinions challenged and having to defend them. Sometimes I have even changed my mind!

It was only by taking part and debating that I have been able to learn and grow.

Axiom142
 

cadet

Patron
cadet,

You certainly did just jump in here.

You may be very upset about something, but your anger and hatred has overwhelmed and masked what you are probably trying to say which is a shame as what have to say is probably of great value.

In my view, what came across in your post was a reactionary response to something that you did not like... What you put was inflammatory and so far as I can see could easily get others, including the recipient (me) very upset...

Therefore, I can only say that it was not only ill considered but was also ill mannered.

That kind of post is likely to spark hostility and anger, rather than open up a subject and get a clearer picture of what is trying to be said...

If you have something to say, then please do so, but please do not behave like a thug, as I am sure you are not one... But this is what came across in your post (from my view as the recipient).

From my experience, hatred is an emotion that usually destroys the person who is doing the hating and rarely even touches the thing that is hated...

I know this as I have in the past had pretty extreme hatred myself - It did me no favours and no good at all and I would say probably did me a great deal of harm. i.e. I did myself a great deal of harm by hating... it is corrosive and eats away at one... Not good at all my friend, not good at all.

Most of us here have issues with aspects of Scientology or the Sea-Organisation, or we would not be here... Some worse than others, some none at all but they like to jump in and seem important, some who lurk, some who stir up trouble, etc...

However, all are people with unique experiences, shared experiences and most of all with feelings. You included.

I did find your post quite offensive as it not only inferred something that was not even mentioned by saying "F**k LRH and f**k anyone who defends him"... I was neither attacking nor defending him...

I should also point out that you have effectively stated in your post that you are unwilling to discuss it any further with the words "So I feel 100% confident is stating that LRH hated family ties. F**k LRH and f**k anyone who defends him."

Your opinion is obviously very important... So why not discuss it in a manner that allows it to be discussed.

I am still trying to come to terms with what I have recently discovered as well as the experiences that I have had - I have many contradictions and missing details that I am trying to sort out. I have family and friends still on staff, I have family and friends still completely involved with the subject of Scientology.

I have been involved since 1964... I grew up living, breathing and eating the subject, the ethos, the way of life...

This is a very difficult time for me. I am in a state of turmoil and am trying to sort this out... You may understand if you have ever been involved and immersed in the subject, or you may not.

However, if you choose to continue posting in this manner, you are likely to become labelled as a trouble maker, or even a fanatic by me and possibly even by others and then you would have no voice, you would have silenced yourself...

That would not help you at all, would it? It certainly would not help anyone else when you did say something important as you would be ignored in the same way that you would ignore the rantings of a fanatic or lunatic...

Whatever you do, please consider your words and why you are saying them, put those details down in your post so that we can see where you are coming from... I personally would love to know as I really do like people and really do care - If you do not want to , then fair enough, that too is up to you...

I hope you read this in the constructive an friendly manner in which I wrote it.

Whatever you do, I wish you well.

Crash

You make fair and honest points.

I agonized over how to respond to this because it is complicated and convoluted. I honestly try to be as careful and kind as possible when I post.

For one, you asked about my story. I don't want to share it. After growing up with my life being an open book recorded in stacks of folders, that anyone could paw through, my privacy is very important to me. I refuse to ever let anyone violate my privacy again.

I actually don't like the personal stories on here. They are uncomfortable for me to read. I am not begrudging anyone else for it, I am just trying to give you some insight into my viewpoint.

I shared a lot about my background in this thread already though, and I will share some more here. I was born and raised in the SO. I was in the CEO, Cadet Org, ATA, Flag Cadet Org, the children's RPF, the children's RPF's RPF, the Pac Ranch, the Int Ranch, the DPF, the EPF and any other acronym available. I was up lines, down lines and off lines.

There is a plethora of information available here about what that life was like for children. I have shared plenty about it myself. My experience was probably average on the whole of it, not the worst and far from the best.

That is where I am coming from. Based on where I started, I am not going to apologize for arriving at anger.

I posted a very long and in depth response earlier, then I deleted it and decided to stop posting on this site at all and go back to lurking. I decided it was impossible for me to be honest and true to myself and my experiences, without upsetting a lot of nice people who are struggling with some very difficult stuff of their own. I recognize that from that perspective I am more of a hindrance than a help.

I can't take back anything I have said though, not a single word. I know my opinion about LRH and everything else came across violently. I know my opinions consist of hate and anger. When it comes to this subject though, the subject of Sea Org Children, I don't have any opinions to offer that don't consist of hate and anger and I refuse to apologize for that.

So I decided to stop posting. No big deal to me, I have been out for years without looking at this site, or giving this subject a moments thought. I don't have any anger eating away at my soul. I am a happy go lucky gal, with your average, middle class life.

Who just so happens to have one particular subject she is angry about, Justifiably angry. Take a look at the tone scale, what tone level should I be in on this subject? By that measure anger is the best that can be expected of me. Anyway, I decided to quit posting.

Then I read this kid's story, posted today: CJR's Story

Once I stopped crying, I decided that I am going to keep talking, even if it is abrasive, even if it is inflammatory and I come across as a fanatic.

Because I am a fanatic. I am fanatically opposed to what Scientology does to children. Not "Corporate Scientology", the very essence and concept of Scientology.

I have a lot more to say about this and I am going to say it with all the hate and anger it deserves. Later though, because I need to go enjoy my freedom tonight.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
Cadet, I am glad you are going to keep talking, thankyou.

You don’t have to apologise for arriving at anger. You say “I decided it was impossible for me to be honest and true to myself and my experiences, without upsetting a lot of nice people who are struggling with some very difficult stuff of their own.” .... well we all have our different struggles and your only responsibility here IS to be true and honest for yourself. As long as the Board rules are followed – ie don’t personally attack another poster, go for it baby! If someone has a problem with your views on Hubbard etc, well that is their problem and by reading here they have the chance to find out the truth about the man, rather than the myth.

Yes personal stories are often hard to read and many tears have been shed about them. Are tears more acceptable than anger?

IMO it is vital that the people who endured scientology at it’s worst speak up loud and clear. How else can the world come to understand the depth of the abuse and mind control? The thing that keeps me going is the children, not only what happened to so many in the last 50 years but also the ones still enduring that kind of upbringing.

I am 2nd generation, raised from 14 in scio, as were 5 siblings, my own children and a granddaughter I don’t know. The stories from one family alone are enough for a bloody big book. It’s one subject I also get very angry about and to this day struggle with the indoctrination that affects the family still, not only the obvious disconnection but all those small concepts that can make life so difficult until you become aware of them, which many in my family are not.

Thank God I didn’t endure what you did, and I have the utmost respect for anyone who come out the other side of that.

Let your words cause ripples in the complacency of scientologists and educate the ones who don't yet understand the full effects of scientology on children! :)
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
You make fair and honest points.

I agonized over how to respond to this because it is complicated and convoluted. I honestly try to be as careful and kind as possible when I post.

For one, you asked about my story. I don't want to share it. After growing up with my life being an open book recorded in stacks of folders, that anyone could paw through, my privacy is very important to me. I refuse to ever let anyone violate my privacy again.

Yes, a very key point in recovering ourselves is putting back the barriers and forcing others to respect them.

I actually don't like the personal stories on here. They are uncomfortable for me to read. I am not begrudging anyone else for it, I am just trying to give you some insight into my viewpoint.

I shared a lot about my background in this thread already though, and I will share some more here. I was born and raised in the SO. I was in the CEO, Cadet Org, ATA, Flag Cadet Org, the children's RPF, the children's RPF's RPF, the Pac Ranch, the Int Ranch, the DPF, the EPF and any other acronym available. I was up lines, down lines and off lines.

There is a plethora of information available here about what that life was like for children. I have shared plenty about it myself. My experience was probably average on the whole of it, not the worst and far from the best.

That is where I am coming from. Based on where I started, I am not going to apologize for arriving at anger.

Quite right - you have no need to apologize at all. You have the right to be angry about what happened to you and to a lot of children who should never, ever have been placed in such grotesque and unforgiveable conditions.

Anger is a totally appropriate reaction to abuse - and it has nothing to do with the tone scale.

I posted a very long and in depth response earlier, then I deleted it and decided to stop posting on this site at all and go back to lurking. I decided it was impossible for me to be honest and true to myself and my experiences, without upsetting a lot of nice people who are struggling with some very difficult stuff of their own. I recognize that from that perspective I am more of a hindrance than a help.

Well, those who cannot deal with it all should not be reading it. This is a place for exes and a lot of us have a lot of issues that we have or are dealing with. Talk your talk - what you have to say is valuable. If nothing else it reminds some of us of what we enabled by being in the Sea Org.

I can't take back anything I have said though, not a single word. I know my opinion about LRH and everything else came across violently. I know my opinions consist of hate and anger. When it comes to this subject though, the subject of Sea Org Children, I don't have any opinions to offer that don't consist of hate and anger and I refuse to apologize for that.

please do not feel that apologies are needed - they are not. Just be you.

So I decided to stop posting. No big deal to me, I have been out for years without looking at this site, or giving this subject a moments thought. I don't have any anger eating away at my soul. I am a happy go lucky gal, with your average, middle class life.

that is good to know. Glad that you have succeeded.

Who just so happens to have one particular subject she is angry about, Justifiably angry. Take a look at the tone scale, what tone level should I be in on this subject? By that measure anger is the best that can be expected of me. Anyway, I decided to quit posting.

Then I read this kid's story, posted today: CJR's Story

Once I stopped crying, I decided that I am going to keep talking, even if it is abrasive, even if it is inflammatory and I come across as a fanatic.

Because I am a fanatic. I am fanatically opposed to what Scientology does to children. Not "Corporate Scientology", the very essence and concept of Scientology.

I have a lot more to say about this and I am going to say it with all the hate and anger it deserves. Later though, because I need to go enjoy my freedom tonight.

I am looking forward to reading what you have to say.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Cadet: If you ever need someone to rant to, feel free to PM me. I will talk to you. I understand what you have been through.

Not sure if you read my story, but a brief bit here: I was born in Scn, raised in the CEO and Cadet Org (While totally and completely ignored by my mother), joined the SO. Long out. Declared SP now for out 2D. (I got up to OT V and Flag trained Class VI C/S GAT)

Now out, married with a little girl. Very happy. I have publicly spoken out about Scn abortion (St Petersburg Times interview video and article).

I hope you find some understanding from this website. It has taken me years to peel the layers of crap. I still have Scn dreams (nightmares), still have mannerisms from Scn, it is INGRAINED in me and is very frustrating sometimes. It can take time. And your view my change, get worse, get better, then worse again. It's a rollercoaster ride and can take time, a lot of time. Take it at your own pace.

Again, if you want, I would be more than happy to talk to you, either by PM or by phone.

- Bea
 

cayce-case-um

Patron with Honors
Cadet -- thanks for continuing to post.

As Bea Kiddo commented, it can take years (even decades) to peel away the layers. That's sure been true for me too.

Therefore we exes are all over the map. As to the "tech" we probably range from the tech works at least in part to it is all bogus. As to corporate CoS we might range from "it's messed up because it is not following LRH policies" to "it is messed up _precisely because_ it is following LRH policies." Some of us have friends and loved ones who are in, others don't. So we'll all have a range of responses to various views I guess.

This thread does remind me of something I decided sometime back. I think that _any_ religious indoctrination of children should be considered a violation of basic human rights and should be considered a crime.

Of course, that would put a huge onus on religions to actually make some kind of valid sense to adults who are considering their options to express their "simian god gene." As long as the state of education of humankind (esp. in areas like logic, analytical reasoning, statistics, and critical thinking) remains so weak, religions could always find adult converts, so why not let their children be free?
 

cayce-case-um

Patron with Honors
.... For one, you asked about my story. I don't want to share it. After growing up with my life being an open book recorded in stacks of folders, that anyone could paw through, my privacy is very important to me. I refuse to ever let anyone violate my privacy again....

This brings up a question that I suspect has crossed the minds of more than one of us -- what happens to our auditing files? If we are declared and fair-gamed, all that sacred confessional crap obviously goes out the window. (Any "horrid" psychologist or psychiatrist who violated a similar patient-practioner trust would lose the right to practice -- how much wiser is the "wog" world than Scn on this point.) That question could be a whole new thread.

Sticking to this thread, I am reminded of this video on sec checks for children ages 6-12. This is really a bonkers treatment of children in my opinion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMmnBXcYN9Q

Geeze. All I had to do with my daughter once when she was around two was give her a time out. When she realized that the time outs would get longer if she misbehaved, she got it and was fine. She needed no parental (much less "church") intrusion into her mind.

How typical it is of any totalitarian system that it is you who must get in agreement with the group even when the group is clearly wrong, wrong, wrong. (Take Cool Hand Luke -- ".... you're gonna get your mind right. And I mean RIGHT ....").

It's bad enough that adults have to go through sec checks -- but man do I feel for kids who had to go through such BS.
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron


For one, you asked about my story. I don't want to share it. After growing up with my life being an open book recorded in stacks of folders, that anyone could paw through, my privacy is very important to me. I refuse to ever let anyone violate my privacy again.

I actually don't like the personal stories on here. They are uncomfortable for me to read. I am not begrudging anyone else for it, I am just trying to give you some insight into my viewpoint.



I can't take back anything I have said though, not a single word. I know my opinion about LRH and everything else came across violently. I know my opinions consist of hate and anger. When it comes to this subject though, the subject of Sea Org Children, I don't have any opinions to offer that don't consist of hate and anger and I refuse to apologize for that.

...


Cadet, you have every right to be angry. The treatment of children in the CoS and particularly the Sea Org, is something that makes a lot of people angry, including me.

I understand what you say about wanting to preserve your privacy and finding other personal stories uncomfortable to read. However, if no one told their story, then no one would know what happened. We can’t change what has happened in the past, but we can at least bring to account those responsible for the abuses, and stop it happening in the future. But to do this we have to get support from those responsible for protecting the human rights of others and enforcing the laws.

One way is to document all these personal stories and produce them as evidence. These can be passed to the media, as has already happened, and pressure applied to the ‘authorities’. It is an unfortunate fact that often those in positions of power will only act if they receive enough pressure from the media or other vocal groups. If we make enough noise, then they will have to act.

And, if nothing else, telling one’s story is a very cathartic experience. So many times, I have seen people carry around the burden of their experiences and suffering and not even realise how much it is affecting their lives right now. The simple action of talking about what they went through, especially with sympathetic and understanding people with shared experiences, can work miracles.

There was a time when I was very angry with my local organisation (St Hill Foundation), especially when they tried to weasel out of returning the money that I had on account for unused services. But then, I thought, “Who am I angry at?”

The staff who are over-worked, under-rested and constantly battling against unrealistic targets and huge pressure who can’t confront the problem of finding £20,000 when they can’t afford the basics of a decent life for themselves? They are worse off than me. Much worse in fact, they are stuck in a brainwashing cult - I escaped.

Once I realised this, things became a lot easier for me and I wasn’t consumed by my anger. Yes, I still feel anger when I read of some horrific personal experience or how the cult continues to abuse the human rights of others, but it doesn’t dominate my feeling towards the members of the cult. Mostly I feel sadness and pity.

I hope that you will continue to keep talking, you are valued here.

Axiom142
 

solo

Patron with Honors
There is another discussion about children in the SO currently going on in the Org Watch section, titled St Hill. Don't know if the posts can be merged?
 

Crashed Alien

Patron with Honors
You make fair and honest points.

I agonized over how to respond to this because it is complicated and convoluted. I honestly try to be as careful and kind as possible when I post.

For one, you asked about my story. I don't want to share it. After growing up with my life being an open book recorded in stacks of folders, that anyone could paw through, my privacy is very important to me. I refuse to ever let anyone violate my privacy again.

I actually don't like the personal stories on here. They are uncomfortable for me to read. I am not begrudging anyone else for it, I am just trying to give you some insight into my viewpoint.

I shared a lot about my background in this thread already though, and I will share some more here. I was born and raised in the SO. I was in the CEO, Cadet Org, ATA, Flag Cadet Org, the children's RPF, the children's RPF's RPF, the Pac Ranch, the Int Ranch, the DPF, the EPF and any other acronym available. I was up lines, down lines and off lines.

There is a plethora of information available here about what that life was like for children. I have shared plenty about it myself. My experience was probably average on the whole of it, not the worst and far from the best.

That is where I am coming from. Based on where I started, I am not going to apologize for arriving at anger.

I posted a very long and in depth response earlier, then I deleted it and decided to stop posting on this site at all and go back to lurking. I decided it was impossible for me to be honest and true to myself and my experiences, without upsetting a lot of nice people who are struggling with some very difficult stuff of their own. I recognize that from that perspective I am more of a hindrance than a help.

I can't take back anything I have said though, not a single word. I know my opinion about LRH and everything else came across violently. I know my opinions consist of hate and anger. When it comes to this subject though, the subject of Sea Org Children, I don't have any opinions to offer that don't consist of hate and anger and I refuse to apologize for that.

So I decided to stop posting. No big deal to me, I have been out for years without looking at this site, or giving this subject a moments thought. I don't have any anger eating away at my soul. I am a happy go lucky gal, with your average, middle class life.

Who just so happens to have one particular subject she is angry about, Justifiably angry. Take a look at the tone scale, what tone level should I be in on this subject? By that measure anger is the best that can be expected of me. Anyway, I decided to quit posting.

Then I read this kid's story, posted today: CJR's Story

Once I stopped crying, I decided that I am going to keep talking, even if it is abrasive, even if it is inflammatory and I come across as a fanatic.

Because I am a fanatic. I am fanatically opposed to what Scientology does to children. Not "Corporate Scientology", the very essence and concept of Scientology.

I have a lot more to say about this and I am going to say it with all the hate and anger it deserves. Later though, because I need to go enjoy my freedom tonight.

Cadet,

Thank you. I am moved by your reply... Really moved.

It is good to hear you.

I took a quick look at CJR's Story and will need to go back to it to give it the attention it deserves...

I ask for no apology... I apologise if I inferred I did... I too am pretty angry about certain things and also no longer feel the need to answer to others.

We must all do what we must do - I respond with anger when I am hurting and upset... I assumed you might too.

Glad it seems to be true... Glad you are not just a person stirring it up.

I am truly sorry that you are so angry, but am very glad to hear that you are not eaten with hate... That takes a very long time to heal, a very long time indeed if it ever actually does heal.

I do not demand anything from you but am glad that you posted this reply.

I too considered carefully how to reply to your original post... and this one.

Thank you for your consideration and the care you took in replying to me, I appreciate the time and effort you took and understand how difficult it is to say things in a clear way when so deeply upset... When one is hurting like this.

I hope that you do communicate when you feel like it, and don't when you don't feel like it. That is the way it should be, in my view.

I am the same.

It is a nice thing to have... Freedom. The freedom to do what one wants to do - Right or wrong.... Mistake or not... But one can!

Real people will, despite their own upsets and shortcomings, be there if you do ever want to say anything in whatever way you need to - ... I could have just responded to your post with a hostile and curt response... But I can't do that - my heart wont let me treat people like that.

I am glad that you decided to keep talking, "even if it is abrasive, even if it is inflammatory and you come across as a fanatic".

Just remember, people like me might just care enough to answer you and to respond with the new found compassion that we have discovered.

If you ever notice me ranting, or being fanatic, let me know... It is always good for me to see that others care too...

I hope you enjoyed your evening.

Crash
 

cayce-case-um

Patron with Honors
Just musing to myself. OK, let's say it is true that a kid is a timeless thetan in a young body.

Does it really follow logically from that that a kid has all the responsibilities of an adult? It's obvious the body has to develop. You don't expect that timeless thetan to be able to walk and use the toilet immediately on birth.

And no one expects that timeless thetan to emerge from birth fully able to speak -- that means some brain development has to occur. To use a Scn term, this is really observation of the obvious -- obnosis.

Since it is obvious that thetans do not emerge as babies capable of the full range of "wog" adult responsibilities -- or even Scn capabilities, then how exactly did Scn establish how and at what level kids would be held responsible? (That's a rhetorical question -- but it seems to me that the answer lies in LRH's own childhood experiences and resentments.)

My mind is still reeling from the reality of sec checks on 6 year olds. And before age 6, I guess you are off the hook from sec checks but as a timeless thetan you don't need that stupid love an parental attention that any idiot "wog" can tell you is crucial to human development of language and well being.

Methinks the emperor does have clothes after all, and that he looks good in black.
 
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