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SEA ORG MEDICAL

Div6

Crusader
Scientology would set up a huge and powerful counter structure to the purpose of your post, and then blame you for not making it go right.

That's why you got slapped, Bea. YOU were the one responsible. At least that's what it was made to look like to all the staff.

Two crimes - being there and communicating!


It's a big No-NO!

:omg: :omg:
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Two crimes - being there and communicating!


It's a big No-NO!

:omg: :omg:

I actually DID compile a co-audit checksheet and submit it for approval. It was so close. Little rejects and corrections needed. I was just about to get it done. Then, BAM!! Some flap. Cancelled.

I actually was researching insurance - medical and dental for the staff. Then BAM!!! I was taken out of the org and sent to NWC. I turned over all of the information to the FBO, who was very interested in getting medical insurance for the staff...

Who wants to bet they still dont have insurance? Eh?

I did that research in early 98.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
Yuh. Well. Auditing is to be prevented at all costs. Stuff al the level of life repair is kind of tolerable. The inmates are becoming happy. But too much higher than that and they are likely to start becoming rebelious.

That is what is a the core of the problem with some of the antis as well. It is not simply that they cannot see, they are afraid we might actually be right.

Nick

I was involved for 16 years, Nick.

I know you are not right.

That's why I am so evil.
 

Div6

Crusader
I actually DID compile a co-audit checksheet and submit it for approval. It was so close. Little rejects and corrections needed. I was just about to get it done. Then, BAM!! Some flap. Cancelled.

I actually was researching insurance - medical and dental for the staff. Then BAM!!! I was taken out of the org and sent to NWC. I turned over all of the information to the FBO, who was very interested in getting medical insurance for the staff...

Who wants to bet they still dont have insurance? Eh?

I did that research in early 98.

No bet. I know they still don't have insurance.

"It's the bank that says the group is everything and the individual nothing..."

Suck on that, DM! :grouch: :grouch: :grouch: :grouch:
 

sugaree

Patron
Apart from the issues of cost (Health Care plans are expensive, and most Cl IV/V orgs would not be able to pay the premiums given their weekly GI ranges, the SO may be different in that regard) the CoS has historically flaunted the "laws of the land" as regards paying in to Social Security, minimum wage, etc. They are able to get away with it by using the the exemptions granted by US law to 'establishment of religion'..

While CoS sure seems to promote this notion that the first amendment grants it license to ignore such "laws of the land," even states as much in the so-called (& totally unenforceable IMO) "Lisa clause," there is no such exemption. The US Constitution protects only religious belief/practice and I doubt COS claims that failure to comply with labor laws as those to which you refer is religiously motivated. And even if it did so claim, still no general exemption.

As the author of the linked article on this general issue writes, summing up the current position of the USSC, "[l]aws may not single out religiously motivated conduct for adverse treatment . . . but formally neutral laws of general applicability may regulate religious conduct (along with other conduct) regardless of the adverse or prohibitory effects on religious exercise."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/05.html

Medical care may be a different story & posting. (net definition ;)

Sugaree

PS. I realize I am jumping around, Div6, but this idea that the first amendment somehow enables CoS to lawfully violate "formally neutral laws of general applicability," just because it is a tax-exempt religious entity, has been driving bonkers for too long. More to also eventually come in re Lisa Clause & the applicability of mental health statutes.
 

Div6

Crusader
While CoS sure seems to promote this notion that the first amendment grants it license to ignore such "laws of the land," even states as much in the so-called (& totally unenforceable IMO) "Lisa clause," there is no such exemption. The US Constitution protects only religious belief/practice and I doubt COS claims that failure to comply with labor laws as those to which you refer is religiously motivated. And even if it did so claim, still no general exemption.

As the author of the linked article on this general issue writes, summing up the current position of the USSC, "[l]aws may not single out religiously motivated conduct for adverse treatment . . . but formally neutral laws of general applicability may regulate religious conduct (along with other conduct) regardless of the adverse or prohibitory effects on religious exercise."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/05.html

Medical care may be a different story & posting. (net definition ;)

Sugaree

PS. I realize I am jumping around, Div6, but this idea that the first amendment somehow enables CoS to lawfully violate "formally neutral laws of general applicability," just because it is a tax-exempt religious entity, has been driving bonkers for too long. More to also eventually come in re Lisa Clause & the applicability of mental health statutes.

Hey, this is totally cool. Do your thing as you best see fit.

I know at one point they were having staff sign "vows of poverty" or some such, for wiggle room, but this definitely seems like a vulnerable point if all ex-so and staff start demanding SS for the years they "worked" in the church...
 

sugaree

Patron
Hey, this is totally cool. Do your thing as you best see fit..

Thanks!!! :D

And Bea, while perhaps a tad off-topic, you might be interested in the following classic 1944 USSC case in which the individual interest or "religious right" of a minor child competes with the State interest in protecting kids and enforcing its child labor laws. The case also touches on parental rights or responsibilities with respect to health care, plus the concepts likely apply by analogy.

The State won this contest, although it was a 5-4 decision and the dissenting opinions are at least as interesting IMO as the majority, which is still "good law" to my knowledge. Both can be accessed via the link in case anyone is interested in the discussion on either side, whether favoring the right of the kid/parent to family free exercise (dissent) or supporting the State's obligation to limit/regulate it in favor of insuring child welfare. (Majority, law)

In any event, it seems to me that the SO may violate analogous child labor statutes in CA, with parents possibly liable for failing to comply with those requiring education through age sixteen or the tenth grade. USSC decisions regarding these precedential contests or "balancing tests," which weigh first amendment individual interests against public or State interests, are covered in the article linked above.

Sugaree

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=321&invol=158
 
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Veda

Sponsor
No bet. I know they still don't have insurance.

"It's the bank that says the group is everything and the individual nothing..."

Suck on that, DM! :grouch: :grouch: :grouch: :grouch:

Except, in this case, Hubbard was referring to himself. HE was THE INDIVIDUAL, and the group was nothing.

Think about it.

Those LRH "Datums" may be fun to play with, but it's unwise to swallow them.
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I know at one point they were having staff sign "vows of poverty" or some such, for wiggle room, but this definitely seems like a vulnerable point if all ex-so and staff start demanding SS for the years they "worked" in the church...

"Vows of poverty"??? :omg: Gee, I haven't heard that one before! Unbelievable.
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Can any former staff (Class V or Sea Org) please confirm whether they have ever seen the Scientology Policy Directive I cited above (Production and Staff Welfare) and whether it really says what I say it does?

If you can confirm it, do you have a copy ? It might be useful in some sort of legal action against C of $.

The Sneakster

I can confirm that such an issue did come out. I think I was already off those type of lines (I was in training or C/Sing and not directly dealing with staff care) and so do not have exact info on what it stated.

It would be great to get a copy of that.

And a few of the other issues ED Int wrote, including the one that you will be Comm Eved and routed out of the SO if you get pregnant. (Which is what started people looking to get abortions instead).
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
And a few of the other issues ED Int wrote, including the one that you will be Comm Eved and routed out of the SO if you get pregnant. (Which is what started people looking to get abortions instead).

OMG - it was actually written that you would get Comm Evd for getting pregnant? That defies belief. I would love to see that issue! :angry:
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
OMG - it was actually written that you would get Comm Evd for getting pregnant? That defies belief. I would love to see that issue! :angry:

How about a post-1975 FO saying you'll get comm-eved if you get mugged? Anyone remember seeing that one, assuming I remembered it right?

Paul
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
How about a post-1975 FO saying you'll get comm-eved if you get mugged? Anyone remember seeing that one, assuming I remembered it right?

Paul

Yes. Thats correct.

Also Comm Eved if you get severe sunburn. If it were so bad you could not work the next day.

I kid you not.

Es true....
 

Bea Kiddo

Crusader
Natalie Ellis, CCI supervisor, came to see me in Qual one day. I believe that I was out handling some other flap, so my senior, the Qual Sec, Andy Kitt, went ahead and gave her an MLO (Medical Liason Office) interview. She complained of stomach pain and said she felt like she might have a fever.

When I walked into Qual, I saw her. She looked very pale and worn out. I wanted to let her take a few days off and rest at least.

She was sent to Shaw Health Center (where Dr Denk and Dr Shields are) and she was seen by Dr Shields, I believe.

Dr Shields stated that Natalie might need to go to the hospital for further tests.

Hospital for staff was way out in Sylmar.

I arranged the ride and got her sent.

She came back after the test results and we sent her home to rest.

We got those test result pretty rapidly. Within a few days.

She was diagnosed with Stage IV cancer. I did not fully understand cancer at the time, because this was the first time I ever dealt with it. I knew nothing about cancer.

I got her medical records sent over to Shaw, where one of the doctors there could review the information and explain it to me.

Dr Shields explained to me that Natalie had stage IV cancer, which meant it was so far advanced, there was no medical handling that would help her. It was "make her comfortable" time.

Natalie was informed of her condition and given the option of chemo, which she refused. She decided to research alternative medicines. She started reading up on the cancer center that is in Mexico, that uses some sort of meter to reverse the cancer, which apparently has many cases of having worked.

I brought that book to Dr Denk to see what he thought of it. Dr Denk, being the very blunt and straigh-forward person that he is, pointed out that I should check what happened to all of the patients. He told me they were all dead. From cancer. It returned aggressively in each case and the person passed away.

So Natalie dove her nose into books on cancer, trying to understand it better.

I was still having to be on post and supervise a courseroom 3 periods per day. And so I had little time to be with Natalie.

She was in and out of the hospital with tests for several weeks. She was finally put in an apartement across the street from CCI, and given an SO caretaker who had his own medical condition, but could help her. His name was Sean I believe. He had a huge ulcer on his leg, which he had from the day he joined the SO.

That is another story I have to write about. Come to think of it. (Man, there are alot of stories here that pop to mind)...

For several months I was auditing Natalie on an assist program every day. Since I was suping all day, the only time I had to audit her was on my dinner time. She was to get short sessions, and I didnt eat much anyways, so it worked out.

Jan 94 we had the big Northridge earthquake. I told that in my story already. But as I was running around, checking on all of the staff, the org, the archives and everything, I had not remembered to check on Natalie until the afternoon. I was VERY embarrassed about that.

I went over to the building to check on her and Sean. Of course, they were fine. They understood I was busy and they were making things go right in their own way, helping each other as they could.

Around mid 94, it was getting pretty bad, where Natalie was in constant pain. She was brought to a hospital.

It was during this time, when the Senior C/S and Chief Officer went to visit her and decided she needed to go back to the hospital. I think a family member of Natalie's had visited her and was disgusted by what they saw and how she was treated (her apartment was only cleaned to the extent that her and Sean were able to deal with it. She had no nurse and the apartment was not being kept sanitary).

Right around this time, Natalie was looking around for a Scientology body that she could go to, if she did pass away. I helped her locate one. I even spoke to the pregnant mother about it, who knows Natalie well, as she was supping public courserooms. She was very happy and pleased about Natalie going to do this. So this was arranged that this was where Natalie could go.

Natalie always wanted to be a sexy woman. Anyone who knows Natalie knows that she was short and overweight most of the time that I knew her. The parents that she chose to be with were a beautiful couple. It was her dream to come into the next life being beautiful.

She was not brought to a county hospital. I dont remember which one it was, because we never used that hospital, except for Natalie.

And this is when the Chief Off explained to me in no uncertain terms that I was trying to kill the staff and that I was a murderer and how she spent all her time preventing me from killing the staff.

Natalie was in the hospital for several weeks. At first, I was unable to visit her, being stuck supping the courseroom all the time. Yet again, the Chf Off came and ripped my face off for not visiting Natalie daily.

So I cancelled the late afternoon courseroom slot and made it out to see Natalie every day. I would give her assists and talk with her.

One day, when she was in ICU, being prepped for surgery, I managed to talk to her doctor. He told me that the surgery would last 8 hours and they would take out all of her intestines and put in some sort of a bypass system. He also explained to me that she may not live through the surgery, because she was so weak, and tired, that 8 hours in surgery may be too much. He also explained that afterwards, all they could do was make her comfortable.

Earlier that day, the Chf Off and Senior C/S had visited Natalie, seen the state she was in, and tried to talk to her about dropping her body. Natalie kept cutting them off, explaining that she was getting well and making it go right. And that she would be back on post soon.

So after this heavy conversation with the doctor, I knew I had to give it another try. I did not want her to have all these false hopes. I also wanted to make sure she knew where to go after she passed away, to this other body that was already set up for her.

So I went in to see her. I grabbed her hand and held it for a few minutes, not even talking. I looked out the window. Bright blue sky. Beautiful weather. She was 1/2 sleeping, holding my hand.

I looked down at her, felt that type of grief that makes your heart flip, and said to her "Natalie, it's ok if you go".

She said, "Go where. I am getting ready for surgery here. I am not going anywhere."

I proceeded to explain to her what the doctor explained to me about the surgery and its risks, and what would be the outcome.

After I explained it, I again said, as I was holding her hand (throughout this), "Its ok to go. A new body is waiting for you. A better one. A healthy one.".

She had her eyes closed and I could not tell if she was thinking or sleeping.

I saw a tear come to her eye.

Then she said, "Ok, I'll go." She was sad.

I asked her, "What do you mean by that."

She said, solemnly, "I am going to die." It was if that decision was really hers.:bigcry:

I felt very bad at that moment, having just done this with her. But at the time, I felt in my heart that I did not want to see her suffer anymore. All I could see was her having a better life by going.

So when the doctor came in, I left, so she could speak to the doctor and refuse the surgery, which she did.

He then explained to her that she would just be made comfortable then, right there in the hospital.

Immediately I went to a pay phone and called the Senior C/S. I explained to her the conversation with Natalie and the fact that she had refused the surgery and was going to be made comfortable until her passing.

I left for the evening, and visited her the next day. I could not wake her at all. She was in a very heavy sleep. I just sat with her for 2 hours holding her hand, trying to talk to her, and told her stories.

This went on for several days.

Then one night, very late, I was talking to my best friend in the berthing building about Natalie. I was wondering what I should do, if anything. She just seemed to go into a deeper and deeper sleep. I was never able to converse with her after that conversation where she decided to drop the body. Yet she was still alive.

My friend thought that maybe there was something still holding her back. I thought about this. She was in ok case shape, I had been auditing her. Not perfect shape, of course, but you know, the rudiments were in. The family was informed. Everything was set. What could it be?

And I got it.

From Natalie.

At that moment, what her concern was.

She was worried about her SO friends not getting sessions after her death in order to run it out. I let her know that the folders were all C/Sed and they all had auditors assigned for when the sessions were needed.

I felt this mass move away from me. Like her relief.

The next morning, the Senior C/S called me into her office to tell me Natalie had passed peacefully in the night. It was at the exact time I was talking to my best friend, and we had figured this out.

I did not feel right saying this to anyone. It was my little secret, with my best friend.

My tribute to Natalie. May you always be remembered for the bright, beautiful person that you are.

-------

Three years later, I was walking down the CCI steps and up came the baby girl - the one that Natalie was supposed to go to. I had never seen her up close, though I knew who she was. She looked up at me and said "hi, ____ (my name)". I almost fell down the stairs. My heart raced, my ears went deaf.

For me, that was an OT moment.

We love you, Natalie, wherever you are....:bigcry:
 

Div6

Crusader
For me too.

Thanks Bea. For making it go right above and beyond...

For another reason to love you...

Love is a good investment. The dividends are heavenly....

:yes: :yes:



PS. Sounds like your Chief Off was a nut case...:no:

PPS: I knew Andy Kitt - if it is the same guy. Thin, black hair, he and his wife Tara were Solo Nots comps...I'm sure they went on to VIII.
 
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