Self-Fulfilling Prophecies in Scientology Tech

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Zinj said:

*However*, the hypnotic commands are *pre loaded*. The books, the tapes, the 'Org Experience' is the setup. The auditor doesn't 'command' the target to 'remember your past lives', for example, but, the target *already knows* that that's what he is supposed to do. I suspect that that's the case for most 'cogs' and 'wins'. The subject has already picked up on what the 'correct' answer will be over the course of his 'gradient', and, that's the 'pre load' that explains why the gradient is necessary in the first place.

Yep. A+
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Panda's answer to me was like this:

You are babysitting the little boy next door, <...snip for brevity>

It was a cult-installed phobia. And I believed it. It's like "Satan is going to get you." or "You will burn in hell for all eternity unless you come to Church every Sunday."

A cult-installed phobia.

Nothing more.

Nothing less.
So, Al, are you saying that you now believe auditing addresses only "make believe" situations/conditions?
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
Another angle on "self-fulfilling prophecies" in the tech is the Scientologist dramatizing the tech.

For instance, in the PTS materials, Hubbard says that "ALL SICKNESS AND ALL FOUL UPS STEM DIRECTLY AND ONLY FROM A PTS SITUATION". Or something close to that.

It can act like a command to the Scientologist who believes it.

If a Scientologist gets sick, then they start looking around to people they are PTS to.

Or if someone "invalidates" them, they will turn on a runny nose and get sick.

It is a very insidious situation to get yourself into when you start believing in Scientology.

You start to dramatize what "the tech" tells you is true.

You play the part you are supposed to play.

Why?

Because people are basically social. "Who they are" is largely made up from how others see them. The tech gives you roles to play. And the tech gives you all kinds of self-identities to wear, and to "be".



They're PTS to the bugs. Allowing oneself - thetanwise - to be the effect of the bugs' postulates is considered a PTS state for a thetan.

It's not people, it's bugs.
 
But it is more likely that the State of Clear is what does not exist.

Don't agree. I would agree that it is not "well defined". I think David Mayo describes the reality far better.


"Charge" is another completely mocked up thing that a Scientologist conjurs and causes to come in on himself.

No, "charge" is a generic term for a very real & observable pattern in human behavior. It is most easily recognized by noticing inappropriate emotional reactions to minor triggering events.

Go to the mall just before christmas and their will be hordes of shoppers having blow-ups over inconsequential matters. Such is clear evidence of the existence of "charge".

Auditing addresses the sources of charge more deeply and seeks to reduce it completely. Depending on the audtor's skills & the pc's willingness to look it can be very effective in this regard.


Another angle on "self-fulfilling prophecies" in the tech is the Scientologist dramatizing the tech.

....

You start to dramatize what "the tech" tells you is true.

Very true. This is also discussed in the tech under the term "wrong item". As with "charge", it is an observable phenomenon quite common among humans and is quite independent of expression from scientologists.

A "wrong item" will result in charge and in the playing out of some sort of a dramatization centered on the item in question. This is as true of "wrong items" encountered as a result of involvement with the Co$ as it is with "wrong items" taken in from any other sources.

Most ex-scientologists have, through one means or another, assimilated many "wrong items" as a result of their prior involvement with the church. Some have actually managed to spot the "wrong item" and handle accordingly. Some haven't.

One of the things which impressed me most about the subject of scientology early on was how the mechanisms & mental phenomena described by Hubbard well accorded with my own observations of the common & ubiquitous irrationality of human conduct. His descriptions & suggested remedies did not need to be exactly correct to be useful in addressing such commonly encountered irrational phenomena in public situations and making them better. The fact that application of these suggested remedies in a session context often greatly enhances a persons personal sense of insight & empowerment greatly increased my regard for the subject.

It only makes sense that for such concepts to have a potentially constructive impact they must also have the potential to be used improperly. Nothing useful is ever without a potential for misuse. Generally, the more powerful in potential the greater the prospect for disruption.


Mark A. Baker
 

Veda

Sponsor
David Mayo on Clear

"It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'Clear' at a certain point.

"Clear... is not an attainable state (at least with our present technology)."

David Mayo, 1991
 
"It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'Clear' at a certain point.

"Clear... is not an attainable state (at least with our present technology)."

David Mayo, 1991

Care to post the rest of it, or are you sufficiently satisfied that you have distorted the context enough so as to prejudice the discussion?


Mark A. Baker :p
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Care to post the rest of it, or are you sufficiently satisfied that you have distorted the context enough so as to prejudice the discussion?

Mark A. Baker :p

Please don't post it all here. Post an excerpt and link to the original if you must.

Paul
 

Veda

Sponsor
Please don't post it all here. Post an excerpt and link to the original if you must.

Paul

Here's a link to a post the contains the full David Mayo article: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=397587&postcount=49

I started backing away from Scientology, first after reading Hubbard's 'LSD, Years after they came of off.' HCOB of around 1976, further when I started reading Aleister Crowley's books and noting the correspondences between Scientology and Crowley's work, but the real change and realization occurred with the announcement of "Dianetic Clear," and as a result of my observation of Scientologists during that period. It was then that I could no longer deny the "hypnotic" effect that Hubbard had over most of his followers.

I slowly began to realize that - to Hubbard - the (auditing) "tech" was not primary, it was secondary, and he really doing something else.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
The EP of Scientology is the discovery that chains are not really very attractive fashion accessories.

Zinj
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
It certainly did result in a big mess when LRH announced that clears were being made on Dianetics at the bottom of the grade chart. I'd been away from the Org for a year at the time and came back to it when it was in full swing. I simply could not accept it. The number of hallucinating idiots around who wer e all ":clear" and who could not be invalidated about was enough to bring one to tears.

I had a huge argument with the C/S at the time over the idea that a "clear" could still have a SerfFac that needed handling. Nuts. If the person is still dramatising a servfac then he cannot possibly also be clear. It is a plain contradiction.

Hubbard was in Treason to Scio at the time. He never got out of the condition.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I had a huge argument with the C/S at the time over the idea that a "clear" could still have a SerfFac that needed handling. Nuts. If the person is still dramatising a servfac then he cannot possibly also be clear. It is a plain contradiction.

It is a shame that the self-fulfilling prophesy mechanism does not extend to people who have been labelled clear always acting so. :)

Paul
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Panda's answer to me was like this:

You are babysitting the little boy next door, and he wants to play with his Army Men.

So he gets them out and spreads them around on the floor. You have your army men and he has his.

He starts making explosion noises and machine gun noises and you "fire back" and say "I got your headquarters!"

The little boy starts crying.

So you say, "Here! Your canon got my headquarters!! I'm on the run!!!" and you start moving your remaining army men backward in retreat.

The little boy immediately stops crying and starts laughing, coming after you with his army - victorious in his mind. And way more "up-tone".

He would blow so much charge and his needle would be floating, too.

The little boy had trouble distinguishing the reality of his situation.

You really didn't blow up his headquarters.

He never had army headquarters in the first place.

He's just a little boy who lives next door.

See?

That's what Panda's handling for my "fear" would have been like, had anyone attempted it in 16 years of auditing, including DofPs which created C/Ses designed to take it up.

It was a cult-installed phobia. And I believed it. It's like "Satan is going to get you." or "You will burn in hell for all eternity unless you come to Church every Sunday."

A cult-installed phobia.

Nothing more.

Nothing less.

You were not alone Alanzo.

Dumping scientology meant that that fear was also dumped at the exact same moment (to my astonishment) and the gnawing and constant anxiety went with it.

Thank-you for being so candid ... I find it hard to be so, but I am trying.

:happydance:
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
It certainly did result in a big mess when LRH announced that clears were being made on Dianetics at the bottom of the grade chart. I'd been away from the Org for a year at the time and came back to it when it was in full swing. I simply could not accept it. The number of hallucinating idiots around who wer e all ":clear" and who could not be invalidated about was enough to bring one to tears.
What if someone had the copybook Clear Cognition in wholetrack auditing in Dianetics? There was a time when one could attest to Dn Clear and still go on to do the Clearing Course, if I remember rightly.
I had a huge argument with the C/S at the time over the idea that a "clear" could still have a SerfFac that needed handling. Nuts. If the person is still dramatising a servfac then he cannot possibly also be clear. It is a plain contradiction. <...snip>
I don't have the exact definition to hand but isn't it something along the lines of "that computation generated by the preclear, not the Bank, to make self right and others wrong etc."?

I've known many "Clears" and "OTs" who were loaded with Ser Facs and responded to the handling accordingly. Clear as a state in scn and dianetics bears little resemblance to what it's promoted as, nevertheless, it is what it is.
 
I've known many "Clears" and "OTs" who were loaded with Ser Facs and responded to the handling accordingly. Clear as a state in scn and dianetics bears little resemblance to what it's promoted as, nevertheless, it is what it is.


Based on my own experience & observations I consider serfacs to be entirely ubiquitous. The only significant distinction among individuals lies in the degree & self-awareness they possess in re their own panopoly of serfacs. Perhaps an individual entirely devoid of misconceptions, faulty assumptions, conflicting postulates, & gpms might also be devoid of serfacs, but I haven't yet seen anyone who fits that description.


Mark A. Baker
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
What if someone had the copybook Clear Cognition in wholetrack auditing in Dianetics? There was a time when one could attest to Dn Clear and still go on to do the Clearing Course, if I remember rightly.

Why not? I had 'The Clear Cog' long before I'd heard of Scientology. I was probably about 13 and like most 13-year-olds a real sucker for the 'I'm the center of the universe and you're all my creations' solipsist 'cog'. Took me years to get over it and discover the *rest* of the cog :)

No, there's nothing special about 'The Clear Cog'. The problem is that There's No Such Thing as Clear. Not as Ron described it. No 'State of Clear'; no 'Case'; no 'engrams' suppressing your Godlike Nature. No 'implants' put there by the evil enemies of all spirit. No 'Homo Novis'.

None. Nada. Not as *Ron* described them.

There are similar things, but, what Ron set it up is a fantasy universe with no referent. It's Ron's Bizzaro World.

Zinj
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
The basis of the ServFac is that the bloke himself decides to use his reactive mind in order to survive. This is the computation generated by the thetan, not the bank. The bank itself becomes the survival mechanism after the thetan himself has decided to use it so.

The so-called "Clear cog" is a waste of time diversion. Hopefully - "hopefully" - a guy who has cognited that the bank is a self-created thing will recognise that it has no value and will cease creating it, but that is a big ask when one is dealing with guys fairly new to the subject. Remember that a cognition (as nice as it may be) is just a shift of significance. To be worth anything the guy has to shift his life as well, in accordance with it, and this is not always done. Clear is as Clear does. A mere cognition should not be considered to be sufficient.

One cannot possibly be Clear if one is also still dramatising a ServfFac. It defies the very basis of these states.

The Reactive Mind is a very real and observable entity, which operates pretty much as described in DMSMH. The bank being real, then the absence of a bank must also be real. Ergo, the state of Clear is real.
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Based on my own experience & observations I consider serfacs to be entirely ubiquitous. The only significant distinction among individuals lies in the degree & self-awareness they possess in re their own panopoly of serfacs. Perhaps an individual entirely devoid of misconceptions, faulty assumptions, conflicting postulates, & gpms might also be devoid of serfacs, but I haven't yet seen anyone who fits that description.

Mark A. Baker
Do you think you ever will, Mark?
 
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