Selling Spirituallity

Flintrock

New Member
Imagine for a moment that I was selling something. This item doesn’t have an exact price, but it will cost you every dollar you earn that doesn’t go to essentials. It will also take up all of your spare time and if you can swing it, your personal time as well. In addition to the financial obligations, you will be obligated to comply with my dictates of how to live your life, how to think and the type of information you will be allowed to consume.

What if I told you the item I was selling was L. Ron Hubbard’s “Bridge to Total Freedom”?

Most normal people, when making a large purchase, will do a reasonable amount of due diligence before laying out their cash. In the case of Scientology, should we stop thinking and throw out proper due diligence just because the product being sold is spiritual freedom? Sadly, most people will spend more time researching a new car before making their purchase than they would before spending five-hundred-thousand dollars on Scientology.

Scientology, both in the official Church of Scientology and the Freezone, continues to be an ongoing phenomenon because of one crucially important, but mostly overlooked fact. The entire purpose and premise of Scientology – all the time and money that it takes – is for one single purpose: Total Freedom.

Per L. Ron Hubbard’s very own claims, “Total Freedom” consists of, as a bare minimum, the following definition for OT VIII:

“ABILITY TO BE AT CAUSE KNOWINGLY AND AT WILL OVER THOUGHT, LIFE, FORM MATTER, ENERGY, SPACE AND TIME, BOTH SUBJECTIVE AND OBJECTIVE.”

Hubbard also makes claims about supernatural abilities, such as telekinesis, clairvoyance, clairaudience, astral travel, “exterior with full perception” (a kind of out of body state with all perceptions working), time travel, and a host of other things. Listen to just the first thirty lectures of the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course where one outrageous claim is made after another. Other areas for these claims are in the OT levels themselves which are freely available online.

Scientologists themselves, whether in the Church or the Freezone, are also apt to boast about these types of abilities. But here’s the kicker. Hubbard conveniently created a policy that labels any person asking for proof a PTS (potential trouble source). Simply put a person that has something wrong with them and needs to be brought back around to a proper way of thinking.

Nobody can demonstrate OT powers as claimed. Sure, you’ll hear anecdotes about interesting situations, unusual phenomenon and coincidences but most of these things can be simply explained. Is there a spiritual dimension to life? Of course there is. Did Hubbard research, identify and codify the key to understanding it? I’m afraid not. If he did, all of his claims would be demonstrable and they would be demonstrable from one person to the next without fail.

Per KSW 1, Hubbard is very clear about the efficacy of Scientology. He really leaves no room for mistakes and is very direct about the workability and uniform results of Scientology. If the claims cannot be demonstrated, then Scientology is invalid. Anything beyond that falls into the realm of faith and people are free to believe whatever they want, however, this does not make it the truth.

Ask for a demonstration. Find an OT at your local organization, or a practitioner in the Freezone and ask them to demonstrate an objective OT ability for you. Don’t spend a dime on any service or course unless you see what you are paying for. If you are dealing with honest people that really want to help you and care about you, they shouldn’t hide behind policy or label you defective just because you have a practical need to see something before you buy it.

Hubbard never said that Scientology was a faith-based religion. However, by labeling people asking for a demonstration PTS, he has effectively turned it into one. This contradiction should not be accepted and any person hiding behind it is a charlatan at best and a greedy liar at worst.

The bottom line is the bottom line. Scientology is about making money. The intentions of people cannot be trusted when they have the opportunity to make money on another’s ignorance. When somebody denies you a demonstration, they are effectively asking you to rely on faith and are bald-facedly manipulating you for the purposes of making money.

If the Scientologist really cared about you and your spiritual welfare, if they really stood for their beliefs in making the world a better place, then their action of showing a person the claims of Scientology would align with that belief. Then the person considering Scientology would be able to make a well informed decision and properly avail themselves of the then apparent benefits of Scientology. As it stands, the neophyte must spend enormous amounts of time and money with the faith that someday the claims of Scientology will come true. It’s a fantasy world.

The fact that a person will not demonstrate the claims of Scientology makes them one of three things:

1. Deluded in their beliefs and chained to the writings of L. Ron Hubbard with no sense of critical thought and no sensitivity for the feelings of others. Basically an ignorant moron, infantile in thinking and barely passable for a normal, well grounded adult.

2. Purely evil for allowing a person to be denied the apparent salvation of Scientology by withholding an objective demonstration of the claims of Scientology. At best, psychotic and sociopathic.

3. A money grubbing, greedy huckster, a charlatan in the image of Hubbard himself, feigning love and caring and pretending to abide by a lofty moral code, but in truth a sick, driveling, petty human being with no sense of honor, and by this, totally lacking in anything decent and spiritual whatsoever.

Any Scientologist asking for money and claiming to want to help you is using your ignorance for profit. Do not give money to any person unless they demonstrate the claims of Scientology. This is a form of abuse and is not a healthy relationship and cannot ever be. If there were no money changing hands, faith would be enough and any person has the right to believe what they want. But since money is changing hands, due diligence is a must.

Ask Ray Robles, Pierre Ethier, Ralph Hilton or any Freezone practitioner or any OT in the Church of Scientology. Ask any Registrar to bring out an OT and demonstrate OT powers or walk out and never go back.

If a Scientologist wants to save the planet, that need should outweigh the puny bureaucratic need to uphold a policy. Besides, Hubbard himself wrote in another policy that you can break any rules to provide outstanding service. How is letting a person’s immortal soul go to hell (negative tone 40) providing outstanding service?

I offer an open challenge to any OT to demonstrate the claims of Scientology. I take the strong position that no one out there can do so. Therefore I brand all of those out there selling Scientology without proof of its claims the lowest forms of human, preying on the ignorance of others for your own profit.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Welcome to the board, nice post.

I liken Scientology to a prostitute, you can buy sex, but not love.

The cult can sell you services but not gains.
 

KnightVision

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hi Flint,

Very nice post, quite accurate.

Because 'ot' is but a 'meaning of words' rather than an 'actual state of ability' the only proof you'll get- (and surely they'll be many an attempt by even those who don't believe in scn-)... will be WORDS. Never any offer to display ability. Just words, endless, tireless words THAT adepts of belief let run amuck in their private virtual words, creating any type of illusory feelings and thoughts.... and then get up 'on stage' to defend the 'ot' state WITH WORDS. Only words.

If looked at from a simple honest point of view... 'ot' is just a word, described by an arrangement of words. These words are used by adepts to create an internal dialogue with, attached to the imagining of themselves as anything that they can 'cook up'. That's all that it is. If there is any real results from it... *that* only occurs when these thoughts of inner 'flights of freedom' inspire them to get off their seat and get something done in the physical universe using their body to do so. And hey if that rocks one's boat then RIGHT ON! But at least describe it honestly rather than LIE about it.

Now let's sit back and watch if any 'defenders' come along and try to dazzle us with their 'ot' words....:coolwink:

I offer an open challenge to any OT to demonstrate the claims of Scientology. I take the strong position that no one out there can do so. Therefore I brand all of those out there selling Scientology without proof of its claims the lowest forms of human, preying on the ignorance of others for your own profit.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I can't be bothered to refute the simplistic generalities here. I will say there are shades of grey, it is not all black and white. If you are really serious, Flintrock, do some more research.

Paul
 

Flintrock

New Member
To: Dulloldfart

Sir,

Indignantly insinuating superior knowledge or experience and still withholding any proof is an expected position used by many Scientologists. A typical harmonic of that within the Church paradigm is, "You'll see when you get there".

What I'm not going to respond to is your assertion of my lack of research. Ad hominem attacks are also the last refuge of persons who are unable to argue the facts with reason.

Your "shades of grey" argument is completely refuted by the black and white claims made by Hubbard himself. If you want to use this position as an apology for Scientology's invalidity, it's your world, go ahead and delude yourself, but don't impose your delusions on others.


Flintrock
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
There's a great deal that Hubbard said that is complete bollocks. But some things in Scn are very useful, some things are slightly useful. It's not an all-or-nothing scene. Most people who have done them thoroughly will say they benefited from doing the lower grades; the same people might say the upper levels not so much. Personally I feel I benefited from doing OT II and OT III and feel the procedures are worth doing even though Hubbard's theory for them is utter twaddle. As I said, it's not black and white.

Paul
 

The Great Zorg

Gold Meritorious Patron
(snip) Per L. Ron Hubbard’s very own claims, “Total Freedom” consists of, as a bare minimum, the following definition for OT VIII:
“ABILITY TO BE AT CAUSE KNOWINGLY AND AT WILL OVER THOUGHT, LIFE, FORM MATTER, ENERGY, SPACE AND TIME, BOTH SUBJECTIVE AND OBJECTIVE.”
That's God's job.

Enticing mere mortals with such powers in exchange for a fortune in cash or one's soul in slavery is the price to pay for a desire AND attempt to become a god, or God him(her)self.
 
Last edited:

Flintrock

New Member
It is all or nothing.

Any valid philosophy in Scientology can be found in other texts so we don't need to rely on Hubbard for anything relevant. Benefits from auditing can be attributed to effects of ritual and belief and the power of the human mind to bring about self-actualized realities. None of which is brought about by a uniform workability of Scientology technology, but by a belief in the authority promoting it.

If claims cannot be validated, then the source of the claims is invalidated and cannot be trusted thereafter. Hubbard lied, therefore his theories must be thrown out. Again, if you choose to continue to believe, that is your choice, but don't force the assertion it is something other than belief.
 

The Great Zorg

Gold Meritorious Patron
(snip)

Again, if you choose to continue to believe, that is your choice, but don't force the assertion it is something other than belief.

We ARE talking about the cult of scientology, are we not? How does brainwashing and the slow pseudo-intellectual mind bending and enslavement of this cult have anything to do with 'belief' or 'proof'(or lack of)?:confused2:
 

Flintrock

New Member
It everything to do with it. My assertion basically dismantles the Scientology paradigm and points out the inescapable presence of the very thing you speak about. How else could a person actually hold onto something that is so blatantly false without being the victim of some sort of mental maladjustment?
 

paul.spiritualquest

Patron with Honors
Hi there!

Hi Flintrock!

first of all, welcome to the board. :thumbsup:

It also took me some time to get adjusted and used to the way people here debate, which is the normal way, actually, and I do like it. It really makes you rethink your viewpoint, twice, thrice, and that is good so.

I agree with Paul, (the other Paul :D), he is the suplanter BT, I´m the real one- just joking, he has been way longer around here, and contributed way more than me - that it is not black and white about Scn. tech. True many of the departing points, underlying theory are not scientifical, or tested in a methodic way, far less scientifical way, but many of the processes and the idea of the auditor´s code, repetitive processing, just to name a few are very valuable. Many branches of psychology are also untested, if not majority, and there is value in some therapies and methodologies.

It is a normal path to go to the complete opposite, when going out, but hadn´t been there something positive, we wouldn´t have stayed so long, wouldn´t we?

The group control mechanism is a completely different topic again. And yes, many things were planned for mere control, power and consequently abuse: mental, physical and monetary. And probably the worst: spiritual abuse.

There is great info on this board, many people around here, have been on the apollo, oldtimers, and gave many insights in different threads. Have been in the moments were some tech got evolved, and documented the origin of those pieces of tech. The experience of every exe itself is very valuable by itself. There is huge shades of grey when leaving, and the plurality of those views is expressed here. I believe it is way more enriching to get into a true debate than just a statement of one´s position.

I invite you to check the Apollo thread, or some other on the harm/no harm of OT levels, other personal stories, this board is vast in information and accumulated experience.
 

Flintrock

New Member
Once upon a time, I purchased a lawnmower from Sears. When I took the lawnmower home it didn't cut grass.

The spark plug was made in China, by diligent workers, the paint on the body of the lawnmower was made in Germany by equally diligent workers. The metal was mined in South America and smelted in America. All good people, all good components. But the guy that put it together said it would cut grass and it didn't.

All the various and different parts that came together from various parts of the world are all good in themselves.

Problem is...the darn thing just doesn't cut grass and the salesman at Sears said it would. By definition, the lawnmower is useless. And that is what Scientology is, overall, since OT abilities are not demonstrable.

You are welcome to admire the spark plugs and other components till the cows come home, but realize that you are parked in a belief system because that is all you can factually say is true about Scientology. It is a belief system - pure and simple.
 

smartone

My Own Boss
Imagine for a moment that I was selling something. This item doesn’t have an exact price, but it will cost you every dollar you earn that doesn’t go to essentials. It will also take up all of your spare time and if you can swing it, your personal time as well. In addition to the financial obligations, you will be obligated to comply with my dictates of how to live your life, how to think and the type of information you will be allowed to consume.

What if I told you the item I was selling was L. Ron Hubbard’s “Bridge to Total Freedom”?

Most normal people, when making a large purchase, will do a reasonable amount of due diligence before laying out their cash. In the case of Scientology, should we stop thinking and throw out proper due diligence just because the product being sold is spiritual freedom? Sadly, most people will spend more time researching a new car before making their purchase than they would before spending five-hundred-thousand dollars on Scientology.

Scientology, both in the official Church of Scientology and the Freezone, continues to be an ongoing phenomenon because of one crucially important, but mostly overlooked fact. The entire purpose and premise of Scientology – all the time and money that it takes – is for one single purpose: Total Freedom.

Per L. Ron Hubbard’s very own claims, “Total Freedom” consists of, as a bare minimum, the following definition for OT VIII:

“ABILITY TO BE AT CAUSE KNOWINGLY AND AT WILL OVER THOUGHT, LIFE, FORM MATTER, ENERGY, SPACE AND TIME, BOTH SUBJECTIVE AND OBJECTIVE.”

Hubbard also makes claims about supernatural abilities, such as telekinesis, clairvoyance, clairaudience, astral travel, “exterior with full perception” (a kind of out of body state with all perceptions working), time travel, and a host of other things. Listen to just the first thirty lectures of the Saint Hill Special Briefing Course where one outrageous claim is made after another. Other areas for these claims are in the OT levels themselves which are freely available online.

Scientologists themselves, whether in the Church or the Freezone, are also apt to boast about these types of abilities. But here’s the kicker. Hubbard conveniently created a policy that labels any person asking for proof a PTS (potential trouble source). Simply put a person that has something wrong with them and needs to be brought back around to a proper way of thinking.

Nobody can demonstrate OT powers as claimed. Sure, you’ll hear anecdotes about interesting situations, unusual phenomenon and coincidences but most of these things can be simply explained. Is there a spiritual dimension to life? Of course there is. Did Hubbard research, identify and codify the key to understanding it? I’m afraid not. If he did, all of his claims would be demonstrable and they would be demonstrable from one person to the next without fail.

Per KSW 1, Hubbard is very clear about the efficacy of Scientology. He really leaves no room for mistakes and is very direct about the workability and uniform results of Scientology. If the claims cannot be demonstrated, then Scientology is invalid. Anything beyond that falls into the realm of faith and people are free to believe whatever they want, however, this does not make it the truth.

Ask for a demonstration. Find an OT at your local organization, or a practitioner in the Freezone and ask them to demonstrate an objective OT ability for you. Don’t spend a dime on any service or course unless you see what you are paying for. If you are dealing with honest people that really want to help you and care about you, they shouldn’t hide behind policy or label you defective just because you have a practical need to see something before you buy it.

Hubbard never said that Scientology was a faith-based religion. However, by labeling people asking for a demonstration PTS, he has effectively turned it into one. This contradiction should not be accepted and any person hiding behind it is a charlatan at best and a greedy liar at worst.

The bottom line is the bottom line. Scientology is about making money. The intentions of people cannot be trusted when they have the opportunity to make money on another’s ignorance. When somebody denies you a demonstration, they are effectively asking you to rely on faith and are bald-facedly manipulating you for the purposes of making money.

If the Scientologist really cared about you and your spiritual welfare, if they really stood for their beliefs in making the world a better place, then their action of showing a person the claims of Scientology would align with that belief. Then the person considering Scientology would be able to make a well informed decision and properly avail themselves of the then apparent benefits of Scientology. As it stands, the neophyte must spend enormous amounts of time and money with the faith that someday the claims of Scientology will come true. It’s a fantasy world.

The fact that a person will not demonstrate the claims of Scientology makes them one of three things:

1. Deluded in their beliefs and chained to the writings of L. Ron Hubbard with no sense of critical thought and no sensitivity for the feelings of others. Basically an ignorant moron, infantile in thinking and barely passable for a normal, well grounded adult.

2. Purely evil for allowing a person to be denied the apparent salvation of Scientology by withholding an objective demonstration of the claims of Scientology. At best, psychotic and sociopathic.

3. A money grubbing, greedy huckster, a charlatan in the image of Hubbard himself, feigning love and caring and pretending to abide by a lofty moral code, but in truth a sick, driveling, petty human being with no sense of honor, and by this, totally lacking in anything decent and spiritual whatsoever.

Any Scientologist asking for money and claiming to want to help you is using your ignorance for profit. Do not give money to any person unless they demonstrate the claims of Scientology. This is a form of abuse and is not a healthy relationship and cannot ever be. If there were no money changing hands, faith would be enough and any person has the right to believe what they want. But since money is changing hands, due diligence is a must.

Ask Ray Robles, Pierre Ethier, Ralph Hilton or any Freezone practitioner or any OT in the Church of Scientology. Ask any Registrar to bring out an OT and demonstrate OT powers or walk out and never go back.

If a Scientologist wants to save the planet, that need should outweigh the puny bureaucratic need to uphold a policy. Besides, Hubbard himself wrote in another policy that you can break any rules to provide outstanding service. How is letting a person’s immortal soul go to hell (negative tone 40) providing outstanding service?

I offer an open challenge to any OT to demonstrate the claims of Scientology. I take the strong position that no one out there can do so. Therefore I brand all of those out there selling Scientology without proof of its claims the lowest forms of human, preying on the ignorance of others for your own profit.

Excellent post Flintrock. Totally sane. Totally right. Why didn't I think of this before I parted with my dosh? Having hope definitely isn't a good reason to part with it.
 
Top