Service Facsimiles

[Gib]

Don't hold yer breath. None of 'em were still around as of 1951 as far as I know.

sure, I realize that. My comment was a rhetorical question or device

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_question

Surely the 270 "clears" mentioned in 1950 Dianetics book would have been used as proof that Dianetics techniques "clears" people. Those people would have been Hubbards test people. But Hubbard doesn't name these people so one cannot verify if they went "clear". And surely those 270 people would have been offered up as proof.

And what's funny is Hubbard puts that woman on stage in 1950 to show proof, but she can't remember the color of Hubbard's tie. Why didn't Hubbard put on stage the 270 "clears" he "cleared"?

And then of course we have John McMaster as the first "clear". But wait a minute, where are the 270 "clears" from 1950 Dianetics book?

And what's amazing is I read Dianetics in 1986 and fell for it. And that I am absolutely "clear" about.

 

[Leon-2]

If you were to point at someone and say..."he has "the compulsion to be human".....what are you saying about him?

I still don't understand....what is...."the compulsion to be human"?

Human vs what?

Wrong question. It's not 'human versus what?" is "compulsion or choice?"

There is nothing at all wrong with being human. I agree with you in that it can be great fun. It's the compulsion part that is not OK. And that is pretty much what the CC deals with.

 

[Leon-2]

When I was at Flag they showed me an HCOB - which said in effect, you have the main ser fac which is surrounded by many smaller ones, which you have to discharge to get to the main one - They started running that on me - then Q&Aed off of it before they go to the main Ser Fac. I can't say the Flag AO HGC is any better than the Podunk org - I have had them take me in session when I wasn't sessionable to try get a comp wed evening despite my telling them I was too tired.

Mimsey

Yes. This sort of shit happened too often. In truth I believe the the application of the Tech improved in direct ratio to the auditor's physical distance from the Flag Land Base.

 

[Veda]

-snip-

There is nothing at all wrong with being human.

-snip-

Sure there is. One is subject to the R6 (implanted) bank, and subject to the stupors, and irrationalities, of "Body Thetans," all of which are, supposedly, addressed on the Clearing Course, OT 2, OT 3, and NOTs.

Cute version of beings on the next level up, for homo sapien public consumption.

​

 

[RogerB]

Wrong question. It's not 'human versus what?" is "compulsion or choice?"

There is nothing at all wrong with being human. I agree with you in that it can be great fun. It's the compulsion part that is not OK. And that is pretty much what the CC deals with.

Ummm, I would say what matters is: what type or condition of human one is compulsively being.

And, umm, I did the CC and all that other tripe we all were supposed to have and have to handle, etc., and it did diddly-squat for me.

Plus, I saw nothing in it or the materials of it that dealt with "compulsively being human." . . . . So I wonder where that notion comes from.

I found some things to handle on OT3 . . . but the whole proposition of what one had to do on the level is screwy and destructive tech . . . a complete dramatization of Hubbard's evil and destructive attitude to others. As Alan has said, you treat your spiritual connections the same way you treat people . . . and in Hubbard's case, this was "like shit."

There are other causes of why we are in the human condition we are in and "addicted to it." And the answer to that is not in $cn.

R

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Ummm, I would say what matters is: what type or condition of human one is compulsively being.

And, umm, I did the CC and all that other tripe we all were supposed to have and have to handle, etc., and it did diddly-squat for me.

Plus, I saw nothing in it or the materials of it that dealt with "compulsively being human." . . . . So I wonder where that notion comes from.

I found some things to handle on OT3 . . . but the whole proposition of what one had to do on the level is screwy and destructive tech . . . a complete dramatization of Hubbard's evil and destructive attitude to others. As Alan has said, you treat your spiritual connections the same way you treat people . . . and in Hubbard's case, this was "like shit."

There are other causes of why we are in the human condition we are in and "addicted to it." And the answer to that is not in $cn.

R

Oooooh .... is (the answer to that) in "Knowledgi$m" Roger?

And, are you addicted to mentioning Alan in every post you make?



​

 

[F.Bullbait]

Back on the Ser Fac track.


Ref: http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?1255-Service-Facs-I-have-known-and-loved


I especially like "I have been told that LRH said some place that Scn was the LAST Ser Fac you would ever need."

Ya, right.

 

[Terril park]

Well...I hesitate to say this...BUT

At the risk of blowing up this whole thread...may I just add that Ron "squirreled" the whole concept of having a (or many)"Service Facsimile(s)" from psychology? He didn't invent or "discover" it. Or improve upon it, from what I see of Scientologist's actual functioning in life.

I had no idea that these concepts are to be found in what
I believe is mainstream therapy. However it seems Hubbard
developed these ideas earlier in 1963.

"The humanistic psychology perspective is summarized by five core principles or postulates of humanistic psychology first articulated in an article written by James Bugental in 1964...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic_psychology

 

[Leon-2]

Ummm, I would say what matters is: what type or condition of human one is compulsively being.

No no. Compulsively doing anything is plainly other-determined. All of the bank is composed of nothing other than real abilities and freedoms repressed or asserted compulsively at inappropriate times.

And, umm, I did the CC and all that other tripe we all were supposed to have and have to handle, etc., and it did diddly-squat for me.

LRH's opinions and "ought to be's" matter less than actual results achieved through application.

Plus, I saw nothing in it or the materials of it that dealt with "compulsively being human." . . . . So I wonder where that notion comes from.

I never saw anything on it in the materials either. But I did see plenty of it in the session reports of people I C/Sd through the level. Plenty indeed.

I found some things to handle on OT3 . . . but the whole proposition of what one had to do on the level is screwy and destructive tech . . . a complete dramatization of Hubbard's evil and destructive attitude to others. As Alan has said, you treat your spiritual connections the same way you treat people . . . and in Hubbard's case, this was "like shit."

Never read LRH say or write that one should treat them like shit.

There are other causes of why we are in the human condition we are in and "addicted to it." And the answer to that is not in $cn.
R

Yes of course there are. Scientology is a quick fix, lick and promise technology which is hopelessly incomplete. All I claim for it is that it can produce great results if applied diligently and with preclear benefit as you sole purpose.

 

[RogerB]

So, Leon-2 . . . I see you are still a total, absolute and complete believer in the Hubbard stuff

Stick with it, Tiger!

R

 

[George Layton]

Ah to be human!

If the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts and you remove all the parts, does only the greater remain?

 

[JustSheila]

I had no idea that these concepts are to be found in what
I believe is mainstream therapy. However it seems Hubbard
developed these ideas earlier in 1963.

"The humanistic psychology perspective is summarized by five core principles or postulates of humanistic psychology first articulated in an article written by James Bugental in 1964...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic_psychology

Not James Bugental. That's far too late, he just codified it into five core principles.

Humanistic psychology has been around since the mid 1920s. To the best of my knowledge, it was the humanist psychologist Karen Horney who first named and described what Hubbard later called service facsimiles. She called them "coping strategies". There is a lot to study with Karen's approach (it's really condensed in the Wiki) and I don't remember most of it, but she's really worth studying. Here are her ten coping strategies:

Moving Toward People
1. The need for affection and approval; pleasing others and being liked by them.
2. The need for a partner; one whom they can love and who will solve all problems.

Moving Against People
3. The need for power; the ability to bend wills and achieve control over others—while most persons seek strength, the neurotic may be desperate for it.

4. The need to exploit others; to get the better of them. To become manipulative, fostering the belief that people are there simply to be used.

5. The need for social recognition; prestige and limelight.

6. The need for personal admiration; for both inner and outer qualities—to be valued.

7. The need for personal achievement; though virtually all persons wish to make achievements, as with No. 3, the neurotic may be desperate for achievement.

Moving Away from People
8. The need for self sufficiency and independence; while most desire some autonomy, the neurotic may simply wish to discard other individuals entirely.

9. The need for perfection; while many are driven to perfect their lives in the form of well being, the neurotic may display a fear of being slightly flawed.

10. Lastly, the need to restrict life practices to within narrow borders; to live as inconspicuous a life as possible.

 

[JustSheila]

No no. Compulsively doing anything is plainly other-determined. All of the bank is composed of nothing other than real abilities and freedoms repressed or asserted compulsively at inappropriate times.

Only about 3 in every hundred people have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD). http://www.ocfoundation.org/prevalence.aspx

Are you one of that 2-1/2 to 3 percent? Just teasing.

Leon, there is a wealth of information available on the Internet about compulsions and addictions. If you want to carry on an intelligent conversation about this, you might want to put the beliefs aside long enough to read the science.

 

[Terril park]

Not James Bugental. That's far too late, he just codified it into five core principles.

Humanistic psychology has been around since the mid 1920s. To the best of my knowledge, it was the humanist psychologist Karen Horney who first named and described what Hubbard later called service facsimiles. She called them "coping strategies". There is a lot to study with Karen's approach (it's really condensed in the Wiki) and I don't remember most of it, but she's really worth studying. Here are her ten coping strategies:

Moving Toward People
1. The need for affection and approval; pleasing others and being liked by them.
2. The need for a partner; one whom they can love and who will solve all problems.

Moving Against People
3. The need for power; the ability to bend wills and achieve control over others—while most persons seek strength, the neurotic may be desperate for it.

4. The need to exploit others; to get the better of them. To become manipulative, fostering the belief that people are there simply to be used.

5. The need for social recognition; prestige and limelight.

6. The need for personal admiration; for both inner and outer qualities—to be valued.

7. The need for personal achievement; though virtually all persons wish to make achievements, as with No. 3, the neurotic may be desperate for achievement.

Moving Away from People
8. The need for self sufficiency and independence; while most desire some autonomy, the neurotic may simply wish to discard other individuals entirely.

9. The need for perfection; while many are driven to perfect their lives in the form of well being, the neurotic may display a fear of being slightly flawed.

10. Lastly, the need to restrict life practices to within narrow borders; to live as inconspicuous a life as possible.

Thanks Shiela,
All the above has no relevance to my venture in grade 4.
That they have relevance to others I have no doubt.

 

[JustSheila]

Thanks Shiela,
All the above has no relevance to my venture in grade 4.
That they have relevance to others I have no doubt.

It's very condensed. When I studied Karen Horney, unfortunately, I didn't pay enough attention to it because her approach was so radically different from her predecessors that at the time, it was hard for me to mentally shift gears. Kind of like studying philosophies, the hardest part is throwing out one entire set of thinking to enable yourself to think with the next one. Lots of people hate Philosophy class for this reason.

Looking back at it now, Karen Horney describes every single motivation behind service facsimiles. Terril, if you were to look back at some of the ser facs you gave up in Scientology, how well would they fit in with Karen Horney's views?

Like I said previously, there is much more to her, including counselling techniques designed around this. These days I wish I'd spent more time studying her. Karen Horney was pretty cool.

For the sake of discussion, why don't you bring up a few of the ser facs you feel you resolved in Scn?

 

[The Sloth]

It's very condensed. When I studied Karen Horney, unfortunately, I didn't pay enough attention to it because her approach was so radically different from her predecessors that at the time, it was hard for me to mentally shift gears. Kind of like studying philosophies, the hardest part is throwing out one entire set of thinking to enable yourself to think with the next one. Lots of people hate Philosophy class for this reason.

Looking back at it now, Karen Horney describes every single motivation behind service facsimiles. Terril, if you were to look back at some of the ser facs you gave up in Scientology, how well would they fit in with Karen Horney's views?

Like I said previously, there is much more to her, including counselling techniques designed around this. These days I wish I'd spent more time studying her. Karen Horney was pretty cool.

For the sake of discussion, why don't you bring up a few of the ser facs you feel you resolved in Scn?

As an aside, Hubbard name checks Horney in the 1st American ACC, of course is a dismissive manner. But he did that with everyone he stole ideas from: Freud, Charcot, Mesmer, Jung, etc.

 

[Leon-2]

So, Leon-2 . . . I see you are still a total, absolute and complete believer in the Hubbard stuff

Stick with it, Tiger!

R

Straw dog

 

[Leon-2]

It means Roger would like to have a parting shot at me. All quite inconsequential.

 

[Claire Swazey]

It means Roger would like to have a parting shot at me. All quite inconsequential.

And with Carms, too.

Roger (and others) everyone has their own path. It's enough that we're all out of the cult. I think your posts used to be just a bit more mellow and friendly. Again, it's enough that we're against the cult. You're a good guy, Leon's a good guy, Sheila's cool, others posting here are cool...it's all fine.

We're all gonna get in trouble for not worshipping the true god, anyway, so we'll all be in hell together...and you know which god I mean, right?

Yep. The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

So clearly we're all fuckups.

 

[phenomanon]

Hell, I'd be surprised if more than a couple are even still alive, they'd be in their 80's-100's now

Yep. Most of 'em are dead. If they ever existed. I don't think that they ever did exist.