Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to swim

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to swim.

From the South African Independent Scientology blog, Scientologists getting back in comm:

Andrew & Shelley Jackson – Part one
https://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/04/21/andrew-shelley-jackson-part-one/

The essay is long, but well worth reading in its entirety. Read it.

The titled excerpt is set forth below.

Andrew was one of the first appointed LRH CMO’s, and expected to hold a post just as anyone else aboard. He was assigned his first lowered ethics condition by LRH for mucking around in an out-of-bounds area. He was also over-boarded despite not being able to swim (he was only 7 years old), and like many others, spent time in the chain-locker – courtesy of Otto Roos who was the E/O at the time. He was close friends with Arthur Hubbard, and received Power Processing C/S’d by LRH. He finally returned to South Africa at the age of 10 having experienced more adventures than many people have in an entire lifetime.
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

Are we demonising Otto Roos now? He was a more honest man, and a far more earnest Scientologist than LRH. Of course, he couldn't get Scientology to work any more than anyone else could, but at least he tried to play by the rules of the game. I'm thinking of his fall from favour, after he was made responsible for auditing tubbs.
 

Leon-2

Patron Meritorious
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

I remember Andrew Jackson. Short guy. Very affable. I was up in Joburg to do the Expanded Dianetics course I think, I was on my last day there and had a plane to catch and still had to get through the entire book of e-meter drills. All went well up through to those hidden date drills, when they went even better. Andrew was so easy to be in telepathy with - we were both so totally keyed out. So when he wrote a date on a slip of paper and hid it from me I just immediately knew what it was and went through the pretense of divining it via the e-meter. Got it spot-on every time.

I think that second marriage of his was to Sharon Lloyd - a Cape Town girl. Too bad that went wrong - sounds like she was a bit wild. She was only a kid when they married. far too young and horny to make sane decisions about guys.

Anyway - nice to hear about these guys again.

Des Khouri I knew too. After they kicked me out of the Org and I didn't play ball by being sorry and asking for a Comm Ev and working my way back in - I was happy to be out! Anyway, they sent Des on a mission to Cape Town to try and recover me. Got some decent auditing and fixed quite a few out lists, but the mission failed. I never went back in to the Org to work. Until a few months later when a friend asked me to audit her daughter. So I said OK, went back in the Org, audited her through her intensive and then, with everyone ready to schedule me with more preclears (since they had no auditors there any more) and I just shrugged my shoulders and said Bye Bye! ! ! I'm out of here again!

I believe Des died some time later. Saddened me. He was a really decent bloke.
 

Type4_PTS

Diamond Invictus SP
Another eye witness to children being locked in the chain locker on the Apollo:

On Tony Ortega's blog the past two mornings he posted some evidence showing that CoS has published some photos which they photoshopped in order to remove Hubbard's 2'nd wife as well as a young Commodore's Messenger.

The Messenger who got removed from a picture was Julie Blundell and is shown below in a different picture taken at about the same time:


Hubbard_Julie_Blundell-e1415844292615.jpg


Some readers at the Bunker noticed that she appeared to have a black eye, and Julie herself posted comments at WWP which I copied and pasted below:

(I don't have the WWP link, rather I copy/pasted from the comments at the Bunker where the postings got cross-posted)

"I was one of his messengers since the inception of the CMs, together with Annie, Terry and Janis. I left in 1970 sometime. And no, Ron never hit me in all my time with him.I think that the swollen face may have come from an accident up forward one day when a pulley system came loose, swung down and hit me in the face. I don't remember ever having a bad enough tooth ache on board to have that much swelling, although, lets face it, oral hygiene was not a great priority back then so it may well have been a toothache! Oh, And I could have been anywhere from 8 1/2 to 11 1/2. So there you have it straight from the horses mouth!
Toddles! JB
Ps.... I was not short! It's the camera angle I'm sure!! )"


"Yep I am still alive and yes I am out. Have family still involved though so you know the drill, low profile and all that! I have stayed out of everything up til now, but due to your very sincere and reasonable request for real clarification rather than speculation, I have posted below what I think was the cause of that facial swelling and probable eye patch. It was such a long time ago, but I can say for sure that no one hit me on flag, nor was I ever locked in the chain locker. But people were, I did see this personally, my sister being one. I was however well and truly belted a few years later at AOSH DK by a crazy woman from flag on mission to DK. AND she was one of the CS's! jeeez!! If my dad had not busted in the door and stopped her, I would have been a real mess! So yes, i can confidently attest to the fact that violence did happen on occasion! She was trying to stop me leaving the SO at the time and I was 15. As if that's gonna work on a 15 year old very stubborn person!! HAH!!"
 
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

snip...
I was on my last day there and had a plane to catch and still had to get through the entire book of e-meter drills. All went well up through to those hidden date drills, when they went even better.
snip

Well that explains everything, Leon. (I kid the Techie)

Despite the varying considerations about Scientology itself, I think almost all of us have the endearing experience of meeting some wonderful people while we were in.

If anything, that kept me going for awhile.

The Anabaptist Jacques
 

shanic89

Patron Meritorious
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

I suppose that you could sell the lie to yourself and pretend children are adults in little bodies, which would allow you to meter out adult punishments to children. I wonder how deep you have to bury the truth and what lasting psychological damage it does though. My demons are often vocal and merciless, but Ive come to realise, it is in the now that our actions speak the loudest.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

Shanic, please don't be mad at me, but I do think that we are ALL thetans in bodies, including kids. HOWEVER, that being said, our minds, our hearts, our bodies, our developments are VERY different when we are babies than when we are preschoolers than when we are grammar school kids than when we are teens vs being adults.

I fully agree with those who say that the "big beings (or was it thetans?) in small bodies" quote was justification on Hub's part to be horrible to kids. I do.

I always thought the actual theory was that hey, a kid is an immortal being. That doesn't happen on his 18th birthday.

But in the end, it does not matter whether the theory really is if a spirit grows up and becomes adult like a body and a mind would. Because, ultimately, Hubbard was horrible to children and he taught other staff to be. There is zero excuse for that. And as I've said before, a child should be treated like a child.

You know what? I read Child Dianetics. And I can't remember if that thing he said about little Diana and her toy telephone was in there. Really, when I was in the cult, I thought he believed kids should be loved and cosseted but intellectually stimulated. I really did.

I found out about the overboarding and the chain locker stuff and the hideous neglect of children in the SO when I was first on the internet posting to a.r.s. This was the opposite of what I'd always thought.

So I see the "thetans in small bodies" quote and I suppose I go off like Pavlov's dog.

But ultimately this is what's really relevant:

Families were (still are) treated badly in the cult.

People die there.

Hubbard put a little kid in a chain locker.

He overboarded people.

He taught his staff to do it.

So even if he thought kids could be intellectually stimulated because they already are, as spiritual beings, already truly souls or spirits or thetans- well, what he actually DID belied and contradicted ALL his stated theories and objectives.

It would be like if I said you should always be considerate of pets no matter what then I run out and beat the crap out of every pet I meet. What my stated premise was wouldn't matter because I'd be causing pain to the very ones I praised, and making the world an uglier place.
 

shanic89

Patron Meritorious
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

Shanic, please don't be mad at me,</cut>

Claire I'm not mad at you for believing that we are theatens encapsulated in this earthly form. I would like to reply to your comment to explain my reservations on using the term theaten and the idea that we have some hereditary knowledge because of this spirit that resides in us. Unfortunately my head is not in the right space to do so at present. I am not ignoring you or dismissing your ideas, I just need to get my head together to reply.
 
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Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

Shanic, here's how your post makes me feel:

:heartflower:

IOW, I appreciate it.

Ok, I think it's time to turn off the infernal machine and get some rest.
 

Smurf

Gold Meritorious SP
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

Are we demonising Otto Roos now? He was a more honest man, and a far more earnest Scientologist than LRH. Of course, he couldn't get Scientology to work any more than anyone else could, but at least he tried to play by the rules of the game. I'm thinking of his fall from favour, after he was made responsible for auditing tubbs.

I don't see where someone recalling an event involving Otto Roos when he was under the cult mindfuck, as demonizing them :confused2: I know of many ex-Scilons who are critical of the cult today who did some pretty shitty things to others when they were busy 'clearing the planet'. :)

I recall Otto as being a young, idealistic, and impressionable Scientologist who was with Hubbard when the cult was still at sea with LRH.
 

Anonycat

Crusader
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

I don't see where someone recalling an event involving Otto Roos when he was under the cult mindfuck, as demonizing them :confused2: I know of many ex-Scilons who are critical of the cult today who did some pretty shitty things to others when they were busy 'clearing the planet'. :)

I recall Otto as being a young, idealistic, and impressionable Scientologist who was with Hubbard when the cult was still at sea with LRH.


And he received a brutal beating by Hubbard, for it.
 

uncover

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

......
I recall Otto as being a young, idealistic, and impressionable Scientologist who was with Hubbard when the cult was still at sea with LRH.
How cool, Smurf knew Otto Roos personally. May I ask how old you have been when you met him ?
 

Smurf

Gold Meritorious SP
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

How cool, Smurf knew Otto Roos personally. May I ask how old you have been when you met him ?

I didn't know Otto, but read alot of first-person reports from people who did.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

Are we demonising Otto Roos now? He was a more honest man, and a far more earnest Scientologist than LRH. Of course, he couldn't get Scientology to work any more than anyone else could, but at least he tried to play by the rules of the game. I'm thinking of his fall from favour, after he was made responsible for auditing tubbs.

He isn't here to put his case, but he would dispute that.

And yes, I did know him (briefly). He told me he was the first ever Class XII, and when I asked him how he got there, he said, "Tens of thousands of hours of auditing every process there was."
 
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Veda

Sponsor
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to swim.

From the South African Independent Scientology blog, Scientologists getting back in comm:

Andrew & Shelley Jackson – Part one
https://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/04/21/andrew-shelley-jackson-part-one/

The essay is long, but well worth reading in its entirety. Read it.

The titled excerpt is set forth below.

The Draconian punishments for children on the ship originated with an Order from Hubbard. That Order is on the Net somewhere, if someone can find it.
 

AnonyMary

Formerly Fooled - Finally Free
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

Quote Originally Posted by Freeminds
Are we demonising Otto Roos now? He was a more honest man, and a far more earnest Scientologist than LRH. Of course, he couldn't get Scientology to work any more than anyone else could, but at least he tried to play by the rules of the game. I'm thinking of his fall from favour, after he was made responsible for auditing tubbs.

I don't see where someone recalling an event involving Otto Roos when he was under the cult mindfuck, as demonizing them :confused2: I know of many ex-Scilons who are critical of the cult today who did some pretty shitty things to others when they were busy 'clearing the planet'. :)

I recall Otto as being a young, idealistic, and impressionable Scientologist who was with Hubbard when the cult was still at sea with LRH.

I agree... I don't see any here. However, I have no doubt that demonizing of Otto Roos will occur in the comments of that blog article.
 

shanic89

Patron Meritorious
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

Shanic, please don't be mad at me, but I do think that we are ALL thetans in bodies, including kids. HOWEVER, that being said, our minds, our hearts, our bodies, our developments are VERY different when we are babies than when we are preschoolers than when we are grammar school kids than when we are teens vs being adults.

</cut> just a cut for brevity

When you say thetan you are using hubbards word that means an eternal spirit that has lived many lives and retains the knowledge of those past lives. This is the crux of why hubbard alluded to children being adults, that is a child's body is controlled by an eternal spirit that has just picked up another vessel. So when you say we are all thetans in bodies you believe our flesh is just a vessel for an eternal being that has full retention of its past lives.

My understanding is BTs cause conflict with the thetan and hold it back from being able to reach its full potential. Hence the need/existence for scientology.

So I add this up to meaning that if you believe in thetans, without believing in BTs we would be at our full potential moments after we are born and the thetan selects that body.

That being said in your post you say that our minds develop over time, which obviously means there is something\s interfering with the thetan. So what you are really saying in the above post is that you believe in scientology and its teachings. That is to reach our full potential as a operating thetan we have to rid ourselves of BTs.

Claire when you use the term thetan this is the conclusion that I draw, I have attempted to lay out my reasoning in an orderly fashion.

The problem that I have with this belief system is that there has never been a OT nor anyone that has proven they possess any of the super abilities that hubbard says we posses as a thetan. It is important to realise that scientology is not a faith based organization. They are meant to be able to produce results from their practices. This is why I fully reject the idea that we all are thetans.
 

Anonycat

Crusader
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

When you say thetan you are using hubbards word that means an eternal spirit that has lived many lives and retains the knowledge of those past lives. This is the crux of why hubbard alluded to children being adults, that is a child's body is controlled by an eternal spirit that has just picked up another vessel. So when you say we are all thetans in bodies you believe our flesh is just a vessel for an eternal being that has full retention of its past lives.

My understanding is BTs cause conflict with the thetan and hold it back from being able to reach its full potential. Hence the need/existence for scientology.

So I add this up to meaning that if you believe in thetans, without believing in BTs we would be at our full potential moments after we are born and the thetan selects that body.

That being said in your post you say that our minds develop over time, which obviously means there is something\s interfering with the thetan. So what you are really saying in the above post is that you believe in scientology and its teachings. That is to reach our full potential as a operating thetan we have to rid ourselves of BTs.

Claire when you use the term thetan this is the conclusion that I draw, I have attempted to lay out my reasoning in an orderly fashion.

The problem that I have with this belief system is that there has never been a OT nor anyone that has proven they possess any of the super abilities that hubbard says we posses as a thetan. It is important to realise that scientology is not a faith based organization. They are meant to be able to produce results from their practices. This is why I fully reject the idea that we all are thetans.

That's a good point. I'll listen to a theory, but if there has never been any evidence of it as claimed, then the greatest likelihood tells us that it does not exist. To me, the existence of something demonstrates by its existence. And one may not just provide a new theory of why it does not exist, but in fact, does. That's nuts. And their you'll find a brass dog, a gorilla, some magnetic ribbons, and even a naughty cat person in the story. No. This is not evidence. These are excuses for lack of evidence.

When we look at the nature of living things, we can see how many aspects we as people, have with other animals.

Now consider this; 4 quadrillion years. If an eternal being lived that long, they would be extremely wise, in fact, the wisest beings in the universe, since they were there when the universe was created. Cool story. So in a nanosecond, that being can, and was, with 100% results, changed completely and eternally. And their is the only "proof" of anything. We are human beings. Or, maybe, WE ARE HUMANS. The part in caps being the only conclusion.

Okay, 4 quadrillion years does sound like a long time, but how does that compare to the 75 million years of Xenu's mindf**k? Let's see what a quadrillion looks like compared to 100 million.

Okay, here's 100,016,640 One hundred million, sixteen thousand, six hundred and forty Pennies [ Two cubes, one 12x12x12 feet, the other 7x7x7 feet ]
That's much more than the 75 million years that Xenu screwed us over. Let's give Xenu that extra 25,016,640 years (or pennies) as an home team advantage. Go, Xenu!

hundred_mill_A.jpg

Well, that's not much. About the size of a storage shed in your yard.

Let's look at a quadrillion pennies. The graphic depicts one quadrillion, sixty-seven billion, eighty-eight million, three hundred and eighty-four pennies.

1+quadrillion.jpg

It would take almost 4 stacks of pennies - each one representing a year of life, to show how many years LaFayette said we'd been around. And look again at the small stack. It's a decent sized bathroom. Solid, of course, but still, compared to 4 big stacks? Nothing. What's more, LaFayette said that we were around before that. So after 4 quadrillion years, scientology will be the only way to mend from a Coffee Grinder Incident, or Brass Dog, or Gorilla, or Body Builder, etc. The Body Builder is where a thetan is forced to fight with his "attention units". Well, again, wild excuses for nothing. The stories can be as wild, as sci-fi, as it wants to, it still needs to exist, in order to exist. No clears or OTs. It seems like that's the end of the theory of scientology and thetans. If thetans had 4 quadrillion years to provide evidence of OT, and scientology had 60 years to give proof ... it just seems that the test of the theory gave nothing. But, we ARE still humans. That can be proven.
 
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Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Re: Seven year-old put in chain locker, and over-boarded despite not being able to s

Now consider this; 4 quadrillion years. If an eternal being lived that long, they would be extremely wise, in fact, the wisest beings in the universe, since they were there when the universe was created. Cool story. So in a nanosecond, that being can, and was, with 100% results, changed completely and eternally. And their is the only "proof" of anything. We are human beings. Or, maybe, WE ARE HUMANS. The part in caps being the only conclusion.
.

One of my persistent WTF's when I was "in" was this question: "Given that auditing recovers past-life memories, WHY hasn't anybody recalled anything from whole-track space-opera science or engineering class, and used that knowledge to turn the scientific community upside-down?"
 
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