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Sex in the Sea Org and Scientology in general

Human Again

Silver Meritorious Patron
a dynamic which encompassess 1/8th of all life.

I just want to open this topic up for discussion as to the practice of forced abstinance and what can be done to stop it.
Lakey

One thing would be to cease thinking in the rigid terms that Hubard set out. If you look at a real human life, Sex and Family are MUCH MORE that 1/8th of the pie.

More joy can come from this area of life than any other in my experience - hense the removal of this area from a Sea Org members life - that which brings us joy brings us strength - and the leaders would not be able to led if the Sea Org members were strongin themselves. Same for staff, if a watered down version, and same for Public. Too much strength inside and immediately you are not able to be lied to, manipluated, bulied etc.
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Enthetan, dont worry too much about your unproductive immigrants, some of them will be doctors and teachers soon. Some of your immigrants that cant say 'mucke bra' have good degrees, and will soon be correcting you on your Swedish grammar.

But you are right, Europe cannot just allow everyone who is oppressed to live here, at some point the oppression in their home country should end and the people will wantto go home. I dont consider that racist. Greater diplomatic pressure needs to be applied to make the world as pleasant to live in as Scandinavia.

But as you mention it, there's a religion with strong 2D rules. If their religious thought police had e meters, it wouldnt be RPF it would be stonings.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Excelllent points.

One thing would be to cease thinking in the rigid terms that Hubard set out. If you look at a real human life, Sex and Family are MUCH MORE that 1/8th of the pie.

More joy can come from this area of life than any other in my experience - hense the removal of this area from a Sea Org members life - that which brings us joy brings us strength - and the leaders would not be able to led if the Sea Org members were strongin themselves. Same for staff, if a watered down version, and same for Public. Too much strength inside and immediately you are not able to be lied to, manipluated, bulied etc.

Excellent Points, all the way throught your post. You are right, I used 1/8 too loosely. I meant to illustrate that a seriously large portion of life has been decreed out of existence by fiat, by either a dictator or a coucil of executives. The importance of each dynamic undoubtedly varies based on the characteristics of the society you are living in. There could be a socieity where the 2nd was exactly 1/8 or even less than 1/8 but here on Earth in everyday living, I think to most people it is much much higher than that as it is to you. Look at Freud, he felt that it constituted much more than half of life and designed his therapy accordingly.
Lakey
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Excellent Points, all the way throught your post. You are right, I used 1/8 too loosely. I meant to illustrate that a seriously large portion of life has been decreed out of existence by fiat, by either a dictator or a coucil of executives. The importance of each dynamic undoubtedly varies based on the characteristics of the society you are living in. There could be a socieity where the 2nd was exactly 1/8 or even less than 1/8 but here on Earth in everyday living, I think to most people it is much much higher than that as it is to you. Look at Freud, he felt that it constituted much more than half of life and designed his therapy accordingly.
Lakey

Even Hubbard himself states quite clearly the emphasis on each dynamic differs for EVERY human being. It only makes sense really. The balance of urges or creativity along each dynamic is different for each human being.

Per Hubbard, the division of life up into the 8 dynamics was arbitrary, and simply a convenient way to examine what for most people are "general overall areas of life". Has anyone done this, and to what degree? Other than Hubby Dud? In a certain regard, it works for me, and I can think with it. But, even Hubbard made it clear that these were simply "labels" to make analyzing life a bit easier. Since even ex-Scios seem to talk about the dynamics without reservation, I suspect that there is some legitimacy to the idea.

There seems to be no argument that the human male species, in general, has more than 1/8 of their attention upon sex (second dynamic)! I would guess that the average male thinks about sex much more than he does about "helping Mankind" (4th dynamic) or "assisiting ones company or business or bowling club" (3rd dynamic). As always, I could be wrong.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
You prety much said it all!

Even Hubbard himself states quite clearly the emphasis on each dynamic differs for EVERY human being. It only makes sense really. The balance of urges or creativity along each dynamic is different for each human being.

Per Hubbard, the division of life up into the 8 dynamics was arbitrary, and simply a convenient way to examine what for most people are "general overall areas of life". Has anyone done this, and to what degree? Other than Hubby Dud? In a certain regard, it works for me, and I can think with it. But, even Hubbard made it clear that these were simply "labels" to make analyzing life a bit easier. Since even ex-Scios seem to talk about the dynamics without reservation, I suspect that there is some legitimacy to the idea.

There seems to be no argument that the human male species, in general, has more than 1/8 of their attention upon sex (second dynamic)! I would guess that the average male thinks about sex much more than he does about "helping Mankind" (4th dynamic) or "assisiting ones company or business or bowling club" (3rd dynamic). As always, I could be wrong.

You pretty much said it all! Not much there to argue about. Various societies probability emphasize individual dynamics differently. For example, I heard the the American Indian tribes were not very aberated on sex, In the Orient, the 5th dynamic, or at least its animal component, seems to be devalued when compared to the West. However the emphasis is much more pronounced, being to being, as you point out. Like you, I find the divisions into boxes as helpful to make analyzing a bit easier. Oh yes, on your excellent point about males having so much attention on sex, there is definitely an age component. We older guys can sometimes put our mind on something else for a bit and I find that a benefit. Even at 70, if I'm having a coffee at Starbucks or someplace and some sexy woman enters in a short skirt and sits down and crosses her legs , suddenly that sports page or crossword puzzle is quickly forgotten and all my attention goes onto the girl. The day that finally comes to an end will probably be the day take my last breath. How about you Gadfly, do you think your libido will ever leave you as long as you are alive in your current body?
Lakey
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Very good points. Communism cannot work on planet Earth. It always devolves to brutal oppression. Many "isms" cannot work on planet Earth without some degree of force (capitalism included), though the amount and type of force necessary differs very much. Try not paying your income taxes in a capitalist or socialist system. In the USA the IRS collects the taxes, largely to pay the mammoth debt to the Federal Reserve Bank. See what happens if you don't pay. But, again, that is NOT the same as lining up dissenters and shooting them in communist or fascist regimes.

Rather than an either/or situation, there is generally a spectrum of choices. Looking at history and the various societies on this planet, you maximize prosperity when you provide an environment where people can focus their energy and ability on following their own goals, rather than on evading the constraints placed upon them by those who demand they follow imposed goals.

To the degree that massive compulsory taxes need to be imposed in order to fund massive government debts, you have fallen away from a free-market system (a term I prefer over Marx's term "capitalism").

In the early days of Dianetics and Scn, you had more of a free-market system, where people spent money on tech because it worked for them, rather than because they were threatened with sanctions if they didn't cough up cash for management's latest bright idea. During that time, Dn and Scn experienced great expansion. They fell away from that, to impose management's goals on Scnists, and went into a deep contraction from that point.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
One point is that Hubbard was also very much against "welfare states" and all forms of socialism. That may or may not mean anything of significance.
Personally, I think he was just opposed to money being spent on things other than Scientology.

I do not agree though that it must become "racist". Yes, socialism must address and handle the problem of the inflow of people wanting freebies. That may "appear" to be "racism", but it is not. It is a legitimate problem that appears in socialist systems, and needs to be addressed. Sure, common people will often dramatize this problem in a racist manner.

There are no easy answers. Brutal capitalism and rugged individualism also don't "work". As I see it, humanity is involved in many numerous "social experiments". Things are always changing and evolving. Political structures are just one of these continuing experiments. It would be nice if intelligent people could benefit by their experiences, and try new and better systems. I don't have much faith in that, but it sure would be nice.

I've been reading an interesting book, "A Conflict of Visions - Ideological Origins of Political Struggle", by Thomas Sowell (who I consider one of the more brilliant philosophers of our generation.

One big difference he notes between Left and Right is that the vision of the Left involves "problems" which need "solutions", of things "working" or not working. Meanwhile, the vision of the Right involves trade-offs, where an action which benefits A generally involves a cost to B, and the consideration of whether something "works" is dependent upon whether you like what's happening or not.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
One thing would be to cease thinking in the rigid terms that Hubard set out. If you look at a real human life, Sex and Family are MUCH MORE that 1/8th of the pie.

More joy can come from this area of life than any other in my experience - hense the removal of this area from a Sea Org members life - that which brings us joy brings us strength - and the leaders would not be able to led if the Sea Org members were strongin themselves. Same for staff, if a watered down version, and same for Public. Too much strength inside and immediately you are not able to be lied to, manipluated, bulied etc.

The main threat from sex and family is that it can foster loyalties senior to the Org, which may be why it's been suppressed so much.

I remember back in the SO, I was looking for a wife. I wasn't looking to be in love, I just liked the idea of 2D berthing and sharing a room with just one person. Whoever I got would still be a stranger to me, because we would be on post so much that we would never really see each other except in bed. The attitude must seem totally alien to anyboy who was never in the SO, and seems pretty alien to me as I write now, so many years later.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
Enthetan, dont worry too much about your unproductive immigrants, some of them will be doctors and teachers soon. Some of your immigrants that cant say 'mucke bra' have good degrees, and will soon be correcting you on your Swedish grammar.
.

Depends on the immigrants. Immigrants that leave their countries in order to have the opportunity to use their talents are fine. In the US, we have Vietnamese "boat people" who came over after the fall of Saigon, arriving with nothing but a strong culture. Within a generation, the kids are going for their professional degrees.

On the other hand, there are underclass immigrants from other cultures, who see the "social safety net" as a convenient hammock, and have no interest in education. The underclass Muslim immigrants in France and other places are examples. There is a limit to how many of the second category a welfare state can support before collapse occurs. And the collapse can be ugly.

Look at Rome, when it let too many barbarians inside the gates.
 

Enthetan

Master of Disaster
You pretty much said it all! Not much there to argue about. Various societies probability emphasize individual dynamics differently. For example, I heard the the American Indian tribes were not very aberated on sex, In the Orient, the 5th dynamic, or at least its animal component, seems to be devalued when compared to the West. However the emphasis is much more pronounced, being to being, as you point out. Like you, I find the divisions into boxes as helpful to make analyzing a bit easier. Oh yes, on your excellent point about males having so much attention on sex, there is definitely an age component. We older guys can sometimes put our mind on something else for a bit and I find that a benefit. Even at 70, if I'm having a coffee at Starbucks or someplace and some sexy woman enters in a short skirt and sits down and crosses her legs , suddenly that sports page or crossword puzzle is quickly forgotten and all my attention goes onto the girl. The day that finally comes to an end will probably be the day take my last breath. How about you Gadfly, do you think your libido will ever leave you as long as you are alive in your current body?
Lakey

That's definitely a guy thing. While I'm a bit younger than you (not by much), a pretty girl WILL get some attention from me.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
You pretty much said it all! Not much there to argue about. Various societies probability emphasize individual dynamics differently. For example, I heard the the American Indian tribes were not very aberated on sex, In the Orient, the 5th dynamic, or at least its animal component, seems to be devalued when compared to the West. However the emphasis is much more pronounced, being to being, as you point out. Like you, I find the divisions into boxes as helpful to make analyzing a bit easier. Oh yes, on your excellent point about males having so much attention on sex, there is definitely an age component. We older guys can sometimes put our mind on something else for a bit and I find that a benefit. Even at 70, if I'm having a coffee at Starbucks or someplace and some sexy woman enters in a short skirt and sits down and crosses her legs , suddenly that sports page or crossword puzzle is quickly forgotten and all my attention goes onto the girl. The day that finally comes to an end will probably be the day take my last breath. How about you Gadfly, do you think your libido will ever leave you as long as you are alive in your current body?
Lakey

Probably not! The only times when I lose all interest on sex are those times when I am slammed out of my head (as in exterior, VERY keyed-out, etc). Apparently, when the connection to the body is reduced, when attention on the body is minimized, the urges go away too. It seems to me that the physical body acts as an "environment" of sorts for the thetan. A very up-close, and personal "environment", that usually exists entirely as a false identity. It also seems to me that the sex drive largely exists "in the body", and probably restimulates similar urges (from the past) in the thetan.

When I am really "out there", and unattached to the body, I find zero interest in sexual things. That is just my experience, not a moral opinion. That's just the way it is for me. And other times, the sexual energy can be almost overwhelming (desire, urges, etc). But, I have played with Tantra quite a bit, and have managed some measure of control over it. Placing attention is a very important ability, and turning attention on and off at will is an interesting thing to experiment with. Doing so with so with Tantra and sexual energy can be quite enlightening. Really experimenting with "where that energy is coming from" and all of that. Sometimes even in a state of deep meditation. Them Tantric Yogis were something else! And yes, it seems to be more of a guy thing, tied in directly with the male hormones.

I can still look at a truly beautiful woman in that state, even appreciate her beauty as an observation, and yet have absolutely no sexual energy of any sort "pop up" (no pun intended).

In the end though, as with anything, one must contribute to and participate with the "mock up" of the sexual restimulation. Granted it seems to impinge and come out of nowhere, but in the end, I agree with Hubbard's statement that any and all experience FIRST begins as your OWN mockup, you then conveniently forget that you mocked it up, and then you experience the whump and bang of energy from outside yourself. And, since "outside yourself" is apparently only a consideration too, it may be true that we are all just playing games with ourselves to have something to do and to obtain sensation and pleasure. The second dynamic sex aspect being just one small area of possible inflow of energy experience.

The next time you see that pretty girl in Starbucks, conduct a little experiment. Just let all attention fall away from anything related to it, and allow yourself to become entirely disinterested. Mock it up. Apparently, you are mocking up everything else anyway. Do not contribute in any way to the mental process or attention process. I have made the impulse vanish in a few seconds. Or, one cool drill based on LRH suggestions is too "mock up and do causitively what you are doing unknowingly and unconsciously". In other words, when you find yourself getting sexual energy coming in on you when seeing the pretty girl at Starbucks, intentionally mock it up, down to the exact fine detail of what was happening previously without your knowing and aware participation. That can cause a bit of an as-isness. Squirreling for fun! Offbeat Scientology practices. Ya gotta love 'em! :D
 
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Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
Gadfly, you jerk!

Everytime I come up with a point I want to make on this thread, you post it first!

Very good posts on this thread, man.

Interesting last post about tantric yoga. Are you familiar with the western versions of that, sometimes called 'sex magic'?
 

Leon

Gold Meritorious Patron
We used to play on this "tantric" stuff with Scio back in the '70s. One old timer said that that a yellow beam mocked up from one's belly area to the belly of the target girl will get her turned on. You don't look at her, just mock up the beam as solidly as you can. We got some ideas that it was working but no one would or could confirm that the response they got from the girl wwas entirely due to the beam.

More research needed.
 

hbeer

Patron with Honors
The theory of Communism contains the notion that man should assist his brothers. The factual implementation of communism involves mass killings of anybody who disputes the authority of the current management. And that is true EVERYWHERE it is tried.

The attractiveness of Communism for many comes from the desire to grab some of the assets of those who have more than them. It gives license to the desire for robbery. It can only work when the more productive are prevented from leaving, hence the early requirement for closing off all avenues of escape, from the old USSR to North Korea, to Cuba, etc.

Similarly, the Sea Org, as a Communist enterprise, works hard to prevent people being able to escape



So we are looking at a concept that all these movements have in common. Oh, one is missing: the Catholics burning witches in the name of Jesus Christ!

Corruption + perversion corroding an originally sound concept.

In one word: entropy. (If you don't know the definition, JFGI. Just f***ing google it.)

I am just submitting an article about entropy to the Ivy magazine. Entropy is the ultimate opposing force to creativity.

Now, before anyone starts to cry about his or her creations being destroyed by entropy all the time, all the time, all the time... all the time!!! - he or she better develops a perception of entropy.

It's pretty much the same perception that a circus artist has for his juggling balls. He better catches each of them before they hit the ground - or he would be out of a job soon!

Same for us. Perceive the entropy in your creations. Push them up before they fall to the floor and shatter to pieces. It's an art form, well worth practicing it!



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hbeer

Patron with Honors
Hey, What a pleasant surprise to see this thread which I started reviviifying without me. A lot of things are going good for me on ESMB and now this. I am speechless. I gave this thread up for dead on November 29, Post 110 back on Page 12. I checked in for nearly two weeks and there was no activity. What a surprise to see that Page 16 is nearly done. Heidrun Beer cut her teeth on my other website and she was so knowledgeable that a lot of people encouraged her to start her own thread. And to Heidrun who I like to practice German with I say to you, "Ich danke ihnen vielmals fur das neues leben was Sie hat auf meinie alte thread gebracht." Its supposed to mean, "I thank you big time, for the new life which you brought to my old thread." I'm sure there are lots of mistakes.


There are some, but without mistakes, why practice in the first place?

:happydance:



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Rmack

Van Allen Belt Sunbather
It is interesting to study the history and motivations of Masonry (subject of many conspiracy theorists and especially Christian conspiracy theorists). It is part of their philosophy that ALL concepts of Church and State, that encourage division and seperation, must be eradicated. There are some who have the opinion that Masons, along with various other "secret societies", have been orchestrating the "evolution of societies" all across the world for many centuries now. I used to think that they were the "bad guys". I am no longer quite so sure. The aim is to bring about an awareness of "one world" in Mankind. I don't any longer feel that THAT is necessarily a "bad thing".

Do "secret societies" and largely hidden "centers of influence and power" manipulate historical events within a framework of the Hegelian dialectic? Possibly so.

Gadfly, I went through the degrees of American Masony up to 32 degree scottish rite, and 10 grade Knights' Templar in the York Rite. I've even seen a 'French First' put on by French Masons. I also know all about the 33 degree doctrines. Oh, yeah, I did the Shriner death march thing. That was fun.

I can tell you this; these guys aren't the guys. All the way up to and including the Grand Inspector General of the Scottish Rite and whatever, generally are clueless because the Rituals they all perform and hand down are so heavily veiled that you absolutely have to know what they are 'teaching' you beforehand to have any chance of understanding what it's about, besides vague, benign moral and ethical instruction.

That being said, I've been involved with more than just American Masonry, and throughout all the Occult orders, there is a completely hidden agency behind them all. The Lodges of Orders I was a member of, although being all separate from each other all had these credentials that came with a seal, usually called a 'charter' validating it's whole existence.

Who the fuck issues the charters?.............
 

hbeer

Patron with Honors
One thing would be to cease thinking in the rigid terms that Hubard set out. If you look at a real human life, Sex and Family are MUCH MORE that 1/8th of the pie.


I see the dynamics as a roman fountain, with life force coming up from the eighth, flowing into the first first, then into the second, from there into the third, and so on.

If the first consumes it all (as in a person very sick or with a heavy case), nothing is left even for the second. I just recently encountered such a person - with my non-physical eyes I could actually see how his life force was all consumed by himself. No concept of serving a 2D partner or children, much less a group, a nation, humanity, or anything bigger than that.

The key to power across the dynamics, in my opinion, is the strength of the "pump" a person has running in their eighth dynamic center or "root". God creates from the void. The energy available to God is unlimited. The more we know ourselves to be a part of God, reaching out like a finger from its hand, the more we have access to this unlimited energy. My humble opinion...

Now, LRH is welcome to flunk me on this one, I don't care :)




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hbeer

Patron with Honors
Even Hubbard himself states quite clearly the emphasis on each dynamic differs for EVERY human being. It only makes sense really. The balance of urges or creativity along each dynamic is different for each human being.

Per Hubbard, the division of life up into the 8 dynamics was arbitrary, and simply a convenient way to examine what for most people are "general overall areas of life". Has anyone done this, and to what degree? Other than Hubby Dud? In a certain regard, it works for me, and I can think with it. But, even Hubbard made it clear that these were simply "labels" to make analyzing life a bit easier. Since even ex-Scios seem to talk about the dynamics without reservation, I suspect that there is some legitimacy to the idea.

There seems to be no argument that the human male species, in general, has more than 1/8 of their attention upon sex (second dynamic)! I would guess that the average male thinks about sex much more than he does about "helping Mankind" (4th dynamic) or "assisiting ones company or business or bowling club" (3rd dynamic). As always, I could be wrong.



The first and second are mandatory, in that they are keeping the bodies alive and future bodies coming.

For a spirit who wants to play body games it would be rather short sighted to neglect these two! Above the second, I agree that the priorities can differ.



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hbeer

Patron with Honors
Even at 70, if I'm having a coffee at Starbucks or someplace and some sexy woman enters in a short skirt and sits down and crosses her legs , suddenly that sports page or crossword puzzle is quickly forgotten and all my attention goes onto the girl. The day that finally comes to an end will probably be the day take my last breath. How about you Gadfly, do you think your libido will ever leave you as long as you are alive in your current body?
Lakey


I hope you'll keep yours!

Myself, I lost mine for quite some time when menopause started. For over a year my body felt like cardboard. Scary really. It was at the same time my husband died, so there may have been two causes. Since then, I really treasure my horny days.

Re: men at 70 - I have seen one lose his libido totally within only a few weeks, together with his mental clarity (early dementia symptoms, as I later found when I studied the whole syndrom).

These are two of the things that are caused by clogged arteries. If you keep getting your EDTA, this hopefully won't happen to you.




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hbeer

Patron with Honors
The main threat from sex and family is that it can foster loyalties senior to the Org, which may be why it's been suppressed so much.


True, but still stupid.

Do they really expect to clear the planet in just one generation?

Who will be the next generation of auditors if they don't engage in baby making?

Am I the only one to ask this question?

And how about all the LRH references that emphasize the importance of the family?



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