Should Scientologists have the right to practice Scientology?

[Idle Morgue]

Now - if you practice Scientology - you must keep KSW IN IN IN!!

Here is a piece of "tek" from LaFatty Hubbturd - "When somebody enrolls, consider he or she has joined up for the duration of the universe – never permit an ‘open-minded’ approach. If they’re going to quit let them quit fast. If they enrolled, they’re aboard; and if they’re aboard, they’re here on the same terms as the rest of us – win or die in the attempt. Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists…The proper instruction attitude is, ‘You’re here so you’re a Scientologist. Now we’re going to make you into an expert auditor no matter what happens. We’d rather have you dead than incapable.’ LRH


So just remember - you cannot dabble in it - you are in it for the duration of the universe - don't bail cuz it don't work - just keep grinding away forever and ever and ever....Good luck with that one!

 

[Panda Termint]

It would just be so good if it was possible to reverse that High Court judgment. I honestly don't know what that would take. But as long as they can hide behind Murphy's ignorance (well, I think it was a bad call obviously) it does give them religious credibility in the eyes of other religions at least and some of the general public.

We've had a few interesting discussions about this in the past.
Here's an interesting post http://www.forum.exscn.net/archive/index.php/t-16602.html

 

[Adiren]

Damn I can't watch that video from Downunder (not available for my region). I can get Fox News though. Hmmmmmm.

You're right of course. You can't legislate intelligence. You can't ban stupid either.

You can see it from the www.thedailyshow.com I can watch it in Portugal so you should be able to access it too.

 

[Panda Termint]

Okay guys - no one answered my question - What is Scientology - today...<snip for brevity...>

Depends on who is doing the defining, doesn't it?

 

[Panda Termint]

You can see it from the www.dailyshow.com I can watch it in Portugal so you should be able to access it too.

Nope. "This video is not available from your location. But hey, at least you have kangaroos and boomerangs!" lol

 

[Emma]

Nope. "This video is not available from your location. But hey, at least you have kangaroos and boomerangs!" lol

Haha! I never noticed that part of the message.

 

[Gadfly]

We live in a world where a 100% for-sure illness-causing agent can be sold legally to anybody willing to pay - cigarettes.

But at least there is a clear warning on every pack of cigarettes informing you in no uncertain terms that it can be very harmful to you and your health. If you choose to smoke, get lung cancer and die a horrible death after that, well whose fault is it?

But, to me, they shouldn't even be sold . . . . . :confused2:

Dumb, addictive humans . . . .

Scientology is sort of in a similar boat, in that there is so much institutionalized abuse and harm. But, if a person chooses to be a mentally-challenged doofus and put up with it because he or she buys into all of the lies and promises of bettered people and bettered societies, well, who is to stop them?

I think Hubbard was a total genius in how he figured out how to skirt on the very edge of what is legal by setting Scientology up as a religion, and investing in THOUSANDS of legal hours for legal research to see just how far they could push things. Scientology primarily ONLY continues to exist because it figured out how to stack the legal cards in its favor. Otherwise, it would be long gone.

Where else do you see something like "hard sell" taught to people, and practiced with a ruthlessness I have never seen anywhere else on planet Earth?

Personally I don't think anyone should have the right to practice something like "hard sell", but again, if some moron wants to sit there and take it, I suppose it is his or her choice. But, it is sad, how innocent and trusting people often get suckered and taken for a ride.

Though there is a real value to Scientology. Scientology does function as a good indicator in society that shows at any time just how stupid and gullible a certain segment of the population can be.

I suspect P.T. Barnum would have just adored Scientology!

 

[Adiren]

Nope. "This video is not available from your location. But hey, at least you have kangaroos and boomerangs!" lol

The Jon Stewart Show about the Boston bombings?!!! Of course I do (the url was wrong), I'm watching it now in www.thedailyshow.com.

 

[Adiren]

Are you sure those guys from the US Fox News are not scientologists?

 

[Adiren]

You aussies and kiwis are a bad influence, it's almost morning again.

See you tomorrow, with or without SCN.

Be good.

 

[Purple Rain]

You aussies and kiwis are a bad influence, it's almost morning again.

See you tomorrow, with or without SCN.

Be good.

Night, Adiren!

 

[clamicide]

Are you sure those guys from the US Fox News are not scientologists?

Well, we know Greta is...

 

[clamicide]

This is something I've thought about, and it's something that's fought about here so many times, but never really named, so thanks to Emma.

I don't have an answer. But, I think more of us talking about it where more search results wind up in reservations might be something worthwhile. I hate restriction of belief, but I look at all the fallout... all the destruction of ex-Scios..

I think people forget that we don't see as much backlash against LRH, and I think part of this was that his role was before the dawn of the internet... so, a lot of those exes moved on, or died off or just shut Scientology out of their minds... So, yeah, it's easy to go "it's DM" because those exes who experienced his BS didn't have a way to put that out there. I know a lot of stories that I'm not privileged to tell... but, they were from LRH days.

Back in high school, I was disillusioned with the yuppie Reagan stuff I saw in my life... so I read Abbie Hoffman... although I didn't go all anarchist, but I do worry about shutting down beliefs, but at the same time, it's hard for me to see people sucked into this sort of thing. So, I'm very conflicted on this whole thing.

I've seen people just lose their identity, and a lot of those people would still to this day attest that they had received nothing but good from the cult. But, if you would talk to their family and friends.. something went very wrong. I ripped everything apart once I finally started questioning Scio, and in my opinion, it came down to auditing being fucked, but training being even more fucked, and admin where he just completely went off the rails, but that sure as hell wasn't the worst of it.

The admin/policy/ethics is easy to spot as insane because it was obvious... the other !$@# was more insidious, so I tend to think if it as more evil. You could spot the crazy with the green and white once you started questioning, but the other stuff was still ingrained....

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

This is a tricky question to ask. Not because the answer is complex but because the question is complex.

I'm not asking if Scientology should be above the law. It should not. Any activities that break the law should be condemned & dealt with by law enforcement, e.g false imprisonment, using child labour etc. But what about Joe Public who wants to get auditing? What about the guy who wants to train to become an auditor? Should he be stopped from doing that?

Scientologists should and do have the right to practice Scientology.

Dishonest people have rights too. (I kid the cultist)

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Purple Rain]

My husband watches a lot of PBS/educational type stuff.

He watched this one show on Happiness, and it made such an impression on him he made me watch it with him.

What really makes people happy? Why is it that a poor person living in a box with his family is actually measureably happier than a millionaire?

The gist of it: The happiest people are those who live and operate in big communal groups. Having people around to do things with are what make people happy. When people have this, then get cut off from it, they get depressed.

When I saw this, a light bulb went off in my head. When I left the SO, I went through a long weird period of...emptiness. I thought at the time it was some kind of trauma because of what I'd gone through.

But watching this show I realized: I just missed being and living and sharing with the group. I missed my friends. I missed the staff. I missed the belonging.

I think, to some degree, any of us who have had the experience miss that part a lot.

Oh, Lulu Belle, you have no idea how that has just changed my life! You are so right. That was why I felt so much happier before even though I was in an unhappy marriage. My life was so full of friends and acquaintances and causes and groups and hobbies and of my family. That is why I hang out here like a wretch on the street. I need to get connected back up to my world. My light bulb has gone off also. Thank you!!

 

[Leon]

Happiness - giving and helping others.

Happiness is NOT overcoming barriers to a known goal

Happiness is seeing one's postulates succeed. = Success = a win = a rise in tone level = overcoming barriers to a known (postulated) goal


All success is postulate success.

All failure is postulate failure.

That's all there is in this universe - you and postulates.

 

[Xenu's Boyfriend]

Perhaps it's already been said, (I'm going to read this thread backwards), but I think Scientologists should have the right to practice Scientology - who can stop them? I don't want anyone to tell me what to believe.

However, if Scientologists want to practice their beliefs as part of a church body or larger entity or organization:

1) They must retooled Scientology as a true religion that can be offered for free to everyone, or lose their religious status immediately and be held to the standards of a regular business.

2) As a business, Scientology would be required by law to uphold all the labor laws and human rights guidelines or face serious censure, fines and prison sentences.

3) There would have to be a disclaimer somewhere for new people that nothing in Scientology has been proven to work; in other words, practice at your own risk, you're not going to be able to fly no matter what LRH says because you keep getting auditing and climbing up the bridge.

4) the public should demand full transparency at all times - Scientology has earned it's reputation and should be watched - if any group of Scientologists encourages policies of disconnection or abuse, it should be exposed by the media.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

Yep, I know an ex-Exclusive Brethren dude. Those Cats make scios look like Pussies!

I was raised in the Church of the Brethren.

My maternal grandfather was an Elder, my paternal grandfather a Minister of the Church.

When I was 14 I refused to be Baptized and was "shunned" (I wrote about this on ESMB a few years ago, as well as much of what follows).

I refused to be Baptized primarily because of the hypocrisy I saw in the daily conduct of most Brethren and the fact that a beyond wonderful woman (my 3rd Grade Teacher) taught me how to read, insisted that I quit being angry at the World and Life, and LEARN about the World and Life. The gift of Ms. Turner's grace, compassion and insistence ultimately led my to secretly and surreptitiously reading scurrilous books like Plato, the Dialogues of Socrates; The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn; The Grapes of Wrath; Gandhi, An Autobiography: The Story of My Experiments with Truth; The Autobiography of Malcom X etc, etc before my 14th Birthday.

I could not in good conscious be Baptized into the Church of the Brethren and I paid a price for my stance.

I suppose I probably will never be able to satisfactorily explain to all Y'all just why I spent nearly 20 years of my life...over half of them in the SO...as a Scientologist. I left the SO and, ultimately, Scn because I could not in good conscious continue to participate in the hypocrisy and I have paid a price for my stance.

Having said all that, IMO, the Church of the Brethren have a right to practice their "Faith" and the CofS has a right to practice their "Faith". Much of those two "Faiths" are fraudulent, IMHO, however I did learn and gain insight from both of them.

Without Ms. Turner my life would likely been sans the prices I have paid and I would be content within blind ignorance. Ms. Turner sought not to teach me what to think or how to think...she taught me how to read, to love reading and lit the lamp of my learning. The mistakes I've made along the way (and they are innumerable) are not her "fault". They are her reoccurring daily gift to me of trying to open the eyes, over a half century ago, of a "deeply troubled, disturbed, combative boy" in her classroom.

The Brethren and Scns have a right to practice their "Faith", IMO.

And, all of Us have right to speak our mind, disagree with them, and expose and protest their deceit.

We also have the right, opportunity and privilege to be someone's "Ms. Turner".

Peace.

Face

 

[MrNobody]

First let me say that health and work don't leave me much time to read ESMB, let alone write here - so I've only read the 1st page of this thread.

This is a tricky question to ask. Not because the answer is complex but because the question is complex.

I'm not asking if Scientology should be above the law. It should not. Any activities that break the law should be condemned & dealt with by law enforcement, e.g false imprisonment, using child labour etc.

I agree.

But what about Joe Public who wants to get auditing? What about the guy who wants to train to become an auditor? Should he be stopped from doing that?

IMHO: No. One (I) might advise against such a stupid endeavor, but if someone still wants to go down that road, he has every right to do so.

Everyone has the right to make mistakes, and making such mistakes gives one a wonderful opportunity to learn and evolve, once they've been recognized as mistakes.

 

[Balthasar]

No, he should not be stopped.

IMO, it's foolish to say that poeple aren't harmed by Scientology outside the CofS - just look at the Freezoners such as those led around by the likes of Rey Robles and Pierre Ethier; it's better to say, "Yes, some people will be defrauded, and some psychologically harmed, and some will suffer physically because they are led to believe that auditing will cure them when they should have sought medical assistance, etc., but that - erring on the side of a (relatively) free society - such harm is usually tolerated, since the alternative would be the imposition of restrictions that would have undesirable consequences."

It's better to make information available so that people can be informed, and warned in advance.


A sampling for what awaits:

"The Free Zone Decree was received on Earth on the 10th of November, 1982 at 1030 GMT. It states, 'as relayed from mainship, Sector 9'..."

From Elron Elray, dated 11 May 1986, to the Free-Zone and Captain Bill:

"I wish to thank all my friends in the Free-Zone and especially Captain Bill, who carried on in spite of great odds, on my behalf.

"The tech is all in his hands and is ready for you now. I wish you all success on it.

"When enough are ready for OT 17 and OT 18, I will return..." http://www.freezone.org/cbr/sector9/e_sob22.htm

Some other items from Captain Bill and Ron's Orgs:

This is the FZ Marching song (features the complete Decree): http://galac-patra.narod.ru/index.html

And here's Xenu's SP Declare: http://www.freezone.org/cbr/sector9/e_sob20.htm

And then, Markab, the Final Handling: http://www.freezone.org/cbr/sector9/e_sob19.htm

These days Free Zone Scientology (two words) usually calls itself "Ron's Orgs," although it is still part of FreeZone Scientology (one word).

Ron's Orgs is the largest and most successful "FZ" Scientology group.

Veda, you are getting too hung up in details and first look appearances. Ron's Org's are a very good place to go. They remind me of Scientology in the early 70's when Orgs were booming. But without the negative stuff like fair game policy, harassing phone calls etc.

I think that especially you would greatly benefit from a stay at Ron's Org .

Other than that I am happy to see you are back on track