Lulu Belle
Moonbat
Thanks, PR!
Here's a link with some information about this film. It is very, very enlightening and well worth watching.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_(2011_film)
It's on Netflix if you have that.
Should Scientologists have the right to practice Scientology?
- Thread starter Emma
- Start date
Thanks, PR!
Here's a link with some information about this film. It is very, very enlightening and well worth watching.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_(2011_film)
It's on Netflix if you have that.
Purple Rain
Crusader
I would really like to watch it, Lulu Belle. Netflix isn't available here unfortunately, but the official movie website says I can rent it online for 72 hours for a couple of bucks. So I think I might do that!
Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
The trouble is that you are wrong.
Hubbard defined scientology.
If you do something else - no matter what YOU call it - it ain't 'scientology" its "pirateandbum"ology or whatever you wish to grace the next incarnation of feeble weirdness with.
Hubbard was the one who came up with the crap in the fifties and realized it didn;t work - unlike people who have some rosy picture of twits going round saying they were feeling better, and decided that he needed to "undercut the case". He spent his entire "career" trying to come up with one more explanation as to why the crap didn't work - the Sea Org and all the other rubbish was his best attempt.
To answer the OP - should someone be free to study auditing and training? yeah, of course - they should never, ever be allowed to practice it on anyone unsuspecting and innocent though. They should have to give a very big warning along the lines of "I am totally untrained in real counselling methods. I have spent some time studying the work of a total idiot and I want to apply some of his ideas on you. Be warned that there are people who have ended up insane because of this and there are people who have spent a fortune trying to find states that don't exist. Bearing in mind that I am a total amateur playing in a professional area - can I audit you?"
Something like that.
La La Lou Lou
Crusader
There is too much emphasis on religious freedom. What about freedom from religious fixed ideas, intolerance and bigotry?
Should it be legal to practice a cult? I think it should be illegal to bring a child up as a cult member or to accept any new members younger than thirty. I did not bring my child up to be a scientologist or to have any religion. Having a religion is a personal thing and I believe personally that I have no right to shove any faith system down a child's throat. Does anyone have the right to enforce their faith system, their screwed world view on their kids, to say that my children are Jehovas Witnesses and so will not have a blood transfusion, or are girls and therefore won't be taught to read? They are their own person and should have that freedom, give them general morals, yes, help them to respect other people allow them to hear lots of other viewpoints and lots of other faith systems. Have faith in their basic goodness.,
Fortunately or unfortunately it is legal to do a lot of things. You can go to to a specialist prostitute and crap yourself in man sized nappies. You can pay for pvc clad ladies to hurl abuse at you and slap you till you bleed if you want to. I doubt that helps the psyche or soul much. In many countries I could get some daft idea, with no eduction and start my own therapy centre based on gargling with live shrimps. Of course in America you should have the freedom to do what you like without a government, keep your guns and snake oil, but for the rest of us I think it would be helpful to have legislation at least about claiming you can cure things with no proof. You can kill the church with legislature and policing, but indy stuff you can't, thus the conspiracy theory that those indy chaps in the states are working for, not against DM. The IAS is no longer enough, the only guarantee that scientology can continue despite governments is by destroying the church and having scientology run apparently independently.
So maybe the whole Marty, Cooks etc spectacle has just been a well choreographed way of applying divide and conquer. It would be devious, I agree, unlike the church to do devious things I know, but the GO and OSA have done just a few covert and naughty things in the past, why not stage a coup? As an unstructured indy activity there's no funds, no head to shoot at, close down one practitioner and it has little effect.
Should it be legal to practice a cult? I think it should be illegal to bring a child up as a cult member or to accept any new members younger than thirty. I did not bring my child up to be a scientologist or to have any religion. Having a religion is a personal thing and I believe personally that I have no right to shove any faith system down a child's throat. Does anyone have the right to enforce their faith system, their screwed world view on their kids, to say that my children are Jehovas Witnesses and so will not have a blood transfusion, or are girls and therefore won't be taught to read? They are their own person and should have that freedom, give them general morals, yes, help them to respect other people allow them to hear lots of other viewpoints and lots of other faith systems. Have faith in their basic goodness.,
Fortunately or unfortunately it is legal to do a lot of things. You can go to to a specialist prostitute and crap yourself in man sized nappies. You can pay for pvc clad ladies to hurl abuse at you and slap you till you bleed if you want to. I doubt that helps the psyche or soul much. In many countries I could get some daft idea, with no eduction and start my own therapy centre based on gargling with live shrimps. Of course in America you should have the freedom to do what you like without a government, keep your guns and snake oil, but for the rest of us I think it would be helpful to have legislation at least about claiming you can cure things with no proof. You can kill the church with legislature and policing, but indy stuff you can't, thus the conspiracy theory that those indy chaps in the states are working for, not against DM. The IAS is no longer enough, the only guarantee that scientology can continue despite governments is by destroying the church and having scientology run apparently independently.
So maybe the whole Marty, Cooks etc spectacle has just been a well choreographed way of applying divide and conquer. It would be devious, I agree, unlike the church to do devious things I know, but the GO and OSA have done just a few covert and naughty things in the past, why not stage a coup? As an unstructured indy activity there's no funds, no head to shoot at, close down one practitioner and it has little effect.
Auntie Lou Lou I'm reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins at the moment;
http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618918248
I think you'd like it.
La La Lou Lou
Crusader
I'll have to have a look at that then.
Talking about religion, I'm just listening to a radio comedy about the devil. The devil just said that he met L Ron Hubbard in pub and sold him the idea of scientology. I don't know if you can listen to it over there but here's the link...at least for Brits.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00hlcr4/Old_Harrys_Game_Series_7_Episode_1/
SpecialFrog
Silver Meritorious Patron
I'm not convinced you can sell Scientology in a way that isn't at best misleading and at worst fraudulent. Mind you, I feel that way about homeopathy and a lot of other things.
If people are doing it in some non-fee (and non "fixed donation") way then so be it.
If people are doing it in some non-fee (and non "fixed donation") way then so be it.
La La Lou Lou
Crusader
This thread is really about someone's right to not have their mind messed with.
As it stands we do not have the right to stop experts manipulating our minds through propaganda and advertising. They can make you think what they like but can't state lies. So they make you think that a face cream is going to get you a hunky husband, they can't state it, because they can be sued, they imply and almost hypnotise. They can twist your minds as long as they don't claim anything. It's probably the best lager in the world. You can't say Jones's snake oil cures all known cancers, it could be tested, you can say it's been used for a hundred years, so it must work. It doesn't say what it was used for for a hundred years, it could have been used to polish urinals. Also if it's not written it's not true, posters might not claim that snake oil cures insomnia, but the salesman does. I went to a meeting once of Aloe Vera pyramid-salesmen. Just the once. It was so like scientology. Aloe Vera cures everything. They really believed it, and their motivation was greed. The top guys were promoting the vast sums they were earning and the growing acceptance of the ability of Aloe Vera to cure cancers. I stood up and told them what stupid closed minds they had, that there were plenty of plants that have curative and beneficial qualities including elderberries and dandelions growing wild just outside of the building, they were like a cross between herbalists and city bankers.
All sales and recruitment people use the same techniques as reges and recruiters. Affinity, lust, charm, flattery lies and blinding you with pseudo science, ''it's the pro-argen fomula''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOYCkHFMnVc
This world runs on making and selling stuff, often stuff of no value and that includes cures for non-existent spiritual problems. We don't need beauty products, we don't need bridges to no where, but we need the economy to be taking money from people and giving it to others. So no government is going to stop people selling false ideas. We spend billions on products that make us no more beautiful than Romans were, they plucked and fed their skin too, they just used natural products from the market, eggs and olive oil and the occasional essence of gladiator rubbed into your husbands genitals to make him more virile.
I just don't see how you could legislate against it. You can go to a foot-massager who did an hours training on line in almost reiki. You can get a full body massage from an untrained Ayurvedic practitioner or even have counselling from someone who did an evening course at his local college. You would have to regulate them too, perhaps not a bad thing, and how do you regulate Chinese doctors with degrees in administering boiled twigs-tea made in accordance to thousands of years old recipes? Pseudo sciences run by people whose training in the pseudo science is unknown. Part of the problem is that the twig tea does sometimes actually cure stuff that proper medicine can do little about. Do you legislate against placebos just because they are sugar water or let a few people get cured?
This is a harder question than it looks.
As it stands we do not have the right to stop experts manipulating our minds through propaganda and advertising. They can make you think what they like but can't state lies. So they make you think that a face cream is going to get you a hunky husband, they can't state it, because they can be sued, they imply and almost hypnotise. They can twist your minds as long as they don't claim anything. It's probably the best lager in the world. You can't say Jones's snake oil cures all known cancers, it could be tested, you can say it's been used for a hundred years, so it must work. It doesn't say what it was used for for a hundred years, it could have been used to polish urinals. Also if it's not written it's not true, posters might not claim that snake oil cures insomnia, but the salesman does. I went to a meeting once of Aloe Vera pyramid-salesmen. Just the once. It was so like scientology. Aloe Vera cures everything. They really believed it, and their motivation was greed. The top guys were promoting the vast sums they were earning and the growing acceptance of the ability of Aloe Vera to cure cancers. I stood up and told them what stupid closed minds they had, that there were plenty of plants that have curative and beneficial qualities including elderberries and dandelions growing wild just outside of the building, they were like a cross between herbalists and city bankers.
All sales and recruitment people use the same techniques as reges and recruiters. Affinity, lust, charm, flattery lies and blinding you with pseudo science, ''it's the pro-argen fomula''
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOYCkHFMnVc
This world runs on making and selling stuff, often stuff of no value and that includes cures for non-existent spiritual problems. We don't need beauty products, we don't need bridges to no where, but we need the economy to be taking money from people and giving it to others. So no government is going to stop people selling false ideas. We spend billions on products that make us no more beautiful than Romans were, they plucked and fed their skin too, they just used natural products from the market, eggs and olive oil and the occasional essence of gladiator rubbed into your husbands genitals to make him more virile.
I just don't see how you could legislate against it. You can go to a foot-massager who did an hours training on line in almost reiki. You can get a full body massage from an untrained Ayurvedic practitioner or even have counselling from someone who did an evening course at his local college. You would have to regulate them too, perhaps not a bad thing, and how do you regulate Chinese doctors with degrees in administering boiled twigs-tea made in accordance to thousands of years old recipes? Pseudo sciences run by people whose training in the pseudo science is unknown. Part of the problem is that the twig tea does sometimes actually cure stuff that proper medicine can do little about. Do you legislate against placebos just because they are sugar water or let a few people get cured?
This is a harder question than it looks.
TG1
Angelic Poster
MrNobody - just want to say I noticed your comment above. Sorry to hear your health is suffering. Very best wishes to you and wishing you strength.
B
degraded being
Sponsor
.
.
Some scientologists should not have the right to practice scientology outside the jail.
If they want to treat the bedbugs in there as body thetans so that they have someone to talk to, let them. It is a solemn religious freedom that must be allowed to all, even to scientologist, even if they are in jail.
Once the scientologists who have committed crimes and are committing crimes have been arrested, tried and locked up.
In NZ these days, the law can seize property, money etc, that was owned by criminals. It usually happens with drug dealers I think.
That should be applied to scientology scammers too.
.
Some scientologists should not have the right to practice scientology outside the jail.
If they want to treat the bedbugs in there as body thetans so that they have someone to talk to, let them. It is a solemn religious freedom that must be allowed to all, even to scientologist, even if they are in jail.
Once the scientologists who have committed crimes and are committing crimes have been arrested, tried and locked up.
In NZ these days, the law can seize property, money etc, that was owned by criminals. It usually happens with drug dealers I think.
That should be applied to scientology scammers too.
degraded being
Sponsor
When they get out they can do what the fuk they like, including scientology.
Next time they crime they can visit the jail again.
degraded being
Sponsor
.
.
And get me some compensation for all that catholic guilt shit I was fed when I was too young to prevent it.
.
And get me some compensation for all that catholic guilt shit I was fed when I was too young to prevent it.
It is a hard question.
If we legislated to only sell what was proven to " be good for us", supermarkets would consist of two aisles - one for meat & veges and one for fruits & grains. And some folks think both fruit & grains are bad. Others think meat is poison. And don't get me started about dairy! We certainly don't need biscuits & soft drinks & chocolates & pasta packets. These things contain substances that are proven to harm you (sugar, salt, trans fats, certain preservatives and artificial sweeteners). But if someone told me I can no longer buy these things because they are bad for me, I'd be furious.
I went and had my hair done tonight. Some say the hair dye leaches into your skull & could be dangerous to your health. Pregnant women are discouraged from having their hair dyed for this very reason. But I'm getting gray hair and I just can't allow that!
degraded being
Sponsor
It is a hard question.
If we legislated to only sell what was proven to " be good for us", supermarkets would consist of two aisles - one for meat & veges and one for fruits & grains. And some folks think both fruit & grains are bad. Others think meat is poison. And don't get me started about dairy! We certainly don't need biscuits & soft drinks & chocolates & pasta packets. These things contain substances that are proven to harm you (sugar, salt, trans fats, certain preservatives and artificial sweeteners). But if someone told me I can no longer buy these things because they are bad for me, I'd be furious.
I went and had my hair done tonight. Some say the hair dye leaches into your skull & could be dangerous to your health. Pregnant women are discouraged from having their hair dyed for this very reason. But I'm getting gray hair and I just can't allow that!
What do you think about smoking legislation. Warnings on packets. No smoking areas (even if you are NOT harming anyone) etc.
Second hand smoke does harm so it makes sense to me to remove that risk to the public who don't smoke.
Warnings on packets has done nothing except boom eBay sales of cigarette cases. It's just the government making the appropriate noises to make it look like they are doing something "good". If every smoker actually quit the federal budget would be fucked. They really don't want people to quit. They just say they do. They'll never ban it and they shouldn't either. If someone wants to smoke in their own backyard, or have a bunch of people around who all smoke & who are aware of the risk, they should be allowed to do that. And they are.
None of this concerns me directly now though because I quit smoking 6 months ago.
degraded being
Sponsor
OK, BTW, my question about smoking was nothing to do with you personally. Yes, you have the avatar with the ciggy, and now that you mentioned you have quit, you have reminded me that you were a smoker. But I did not direct it to you as a smoker. Despite the avatar I wasn't even thinking of you as a smoker. It's just that it is related to legislation for protection etc, and it has been legislated, so I thought it was a relevant parallel re legislating scientology to protect people.
TG1
Angelic Poster
Given how stupid human beings are -- demonstrable by our compulsions to harm each other and ourselves -- it's a miracle there are nearly 7 billion of us now littering the planet.
Humans have evolved as social creatures -- we do best in groups and, ultimately, are only as valuable as our contributions to the groups we belong to. Yet humans also yearn for personal independence -- as much of it as we can get.
What a yin / yang tension this is -- to belong to the group to enjoy its benefits and to stand apart from it to avoid its tyranny.
What our species is NOT built for is living stress-free.
TG1
Humans have evolved as social creatures -- we do best in groups and, ultimately, are only as valuable as our contributions to the groups we belong to. Yet humans also yearn for personal independence -- as much of it as we can get.
What a yin / yang tension this is -- to belong to the group to enjoy its benefits and to stand apart from it to avoid its tyranny.
What our species is NOT built for is living stress-free.
TG1
Commander Birdsong
Crusader
first amendment LS, freedom of association with it's flip side freedom of disassociation
but now we have the internet which so greatly our capacity for association and now CoS is predictably strangling itself with it's outdated and outmoded policies
which made some measure of sense while it's founder was alive, ron was of course the subject's true king and an autocratic structure to the organization was an acceptable necessary evil for it's development but now it's the personal fiefdom of a dickhead lacking a true sense of the subject
Gadfly
Crusader
So, extrapolated to Scientology, there would be some form of Scientology legislation. Yes?
If there comes a time where there is a long, clear and real record of Scientology being a threat to people, it might happen.
Have a warning sign on the front of each org, and on the cover of each book?
Have "No Scientology Area" sections all throughout society, where it may not advertize or promote itself?
Personally, I feel that the Church of Scientology does and has crossed legal lines often, and needs to be dealt with fully in courts of law. But they are so very good at using their religious status to skirt around these areas.
But also, people should always be free to do what they want as long as they don't hurt anyone else. It is a tricky balance, protecting people and guaranteeing them freedom. I prefer to push it more to the "guaranteeing freedom" side, but the result will always be that liars and tricksters can find and sucker a certain segment of the population (because they are free to do so and the suckers are free to be suckered).
Also though, I would like to see a time where mental and emotional manipulation (such as is used in advertising) is NOT allowed. Sadly, the governments of the world view "national security" as a top concern, and what this actually means is "economic security". In other words, ANYTHING that helps to make money for the corporations is OKAY - including the trickery and deceit of modern advertizing.
Similar threads
