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Should Scientologists have the right to practice Scientology?

Purple Rain

Crusader
but how?

somebody in the idie field gets sick or roller coasters, means they are PTS/SP. Handle or disconnect. That would affect 'wogs" connected to folks getting indie field auditing.

And as Caroline says, PTS/SP tech is a part of the whole tech of scientology, the whole bridge to total freedom.

And yet where are the tales of woe of people disconnected by the Freezone?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen - just if it does why don't we hear about it?

Where are all the stories of the horrible Freezone abuse - fair gaming of people etc.?

I would bet anything that it just isn't happening. Why? Because most of those people left just like us because they hated that shit. And also, because most of those people are probably basically ordinary, law-abiding citizens like us.

They are people like us who have come part of the way out and are still on a journey, or have reached their destination.

But I just don't think they like those aspects or use them in their practice is what I am guessing.

And I would be quite okay with being corrected, because I don't love "the tech" whatsoever.

But I hate propaganda even more.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Terril,

How are you going to feel about your friend Marty when he finally says, "Fuck it!"

TG1

This will probably happen when I do. Never. I'm 40+ years in.

The assumption by critics that everyone will say "fuck it" is demonstrably untrue.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Usually does work? Only if you redefine "work" in some way so as to not mean "deliver the promised EP", right?

The usual is after every grade the auditor holds up the EP and asks
"have you achieved this" or similar. If yes, the grade is completed
And what was promised has been delivered.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
No, sweetie, but that's what a lot of your FZ buddies say they are doing.

Please don't make me dredge up their crazy ass websites to make my point. :eyeroll:

Why not? You'll probably beat Veda to it. :)

I'd actually like to see them. I'm not sure I know what you deem "crazy ass"
but I usually agree and like what you say.:)
 

Lulu Belle

Moonbat
And yet where are the tales of woe of people disconnected by the Freezone?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen - just if it does why don't we hear about it?

Where are all the stories of the horrible Freezone abuse - fair gaming of people etc.?

I would bet anything that it just isn't happening. Why? Because most of those people left just like us because they hated that shit. And also, because most of those people are probably basically ordinary, law-abiding citizens like us.

They are people like us who have come part of the way out and are still on a journey, or have reached their destination.

But I just don't think they like those aspects or use them in their practice is what I am guessing.

And I would be quite okay with being corrected, because I don't love "the tech" whatsoever.

But I hate propaganda even more.


well......

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?24074-DCMA-takedown-threat-received-from-the-Ethiers
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
It seems to me that the logical conclusion to "can you have standard tech without ethics and admin" is no, you cannot.

If anyone could have solved this riddle it would have been Geir Isene.

But can people squirrel bits and pieces that they like without harming others? I think they are showing they can, and they do, no matter how much they protest that it's "standard tech".

I think it's good that when a person takes the time to think this question through it is inevitable that they will come to the same conclusion as Geir. I don't see how this is not win-win.

If they delude themselves, they don't use it. If they are honest with themselves, they realise the subject cannot be salvaged.

I guess I don't really see what the big deal is. It seems to me that when somebody has an agenda about something, such as with gay marriage, they will make all these dire pronouncements and come up with these shrill hypotheticals about what will happen to society. The reality is usually much more mundane.
 

Terril park

Sponsor
It seems to me that the logical conclusion to "can you have standard tech without ethics and admin" is no, you cannot.

As I posted in post 106, not according to Hubbard, at least re Ethics.


fro HCOPL 17 april 1970



VITAL DEPT 1



" ....HCO could be otherwise unmanned but if dept 1 were well manned and

did its duty the org would prosper."



" To the degree dept 1 fell out, Ethics crept in and orgs shrank."
 

TG1

Angelic Poster
First, I will stipulate that I think people have the "right" to practice Scientology. Where I live there's such a thing as "freedom of religion," and Scientology qualifies as a religion. Of course, in some other countries, either there's no such freedom or Scientology doesn't qualify as a religion. But I digress ...

I think it's an especially unhealthy decision for someone who has left the Church of Scientology and has peeled some of their onion out of Scientology's mindfuck to (you'll excuse the expression) revert. If they then then put themselves back under the psychological and emotional thumbscrews of a practitioner of Scientology -- with all its twisted, bastardized Hubbard-founded versions of personal responsibility, robotism, self-loathing, and super-specialness -- I fear they will wind up double-fucked.

But they still have the right to do this.

God help them.

TG1
 

Veda

Sponsor
"This is a cold blooded and factual account of your last sixty trillion years," from 1952's 'What to Audit', found Hubbard telling others the contents of their minds, but it was nascent mind grope (later becoming the "upper levels.").

The early 1950s e-meter reactions demonstrated to an audience, while the audience went "ooh!" and "ahh!," was nascent "Your e-meter will tell you"-ism, and the 1951 'Science of Survival' "no rights of any kind," and its "dispose of quietly and without sorrow" was nascent Fair Game Law.

The seeds had been planted.

However, it was too early for the full implementation of these ideas on the still small, fragile and tentative membership. That would need to wait for a decade, as would Hubbard's implementation of most of the ideas outlined in the enigmatic "Russian Textbook on Psycho-politics."

In the mean time, Hubbard surrounded himself with those excited about his much advertised vision of a better world, and excited about the full releasing of spiritual ability.

Hubbard liked to write and he liked to lecture, and he had a knack as a practical psychologist. He drew on the ideas and innovations of the most creative of those around him, and drew on his own knowledge of abreaction therapy, Korzybski's General Semantics, and Aleister Crowley's Magic(k). He re-worked the (four 'letters' - ingredients - of the) Kabbalistic 'tetragrammaton', and it became his 'Four Conditions of Existence'. He rewrote Crowley's 'Naples Arrangement' and it became his 'The Factors'. He borrowed Crowley's idea of a multiplicity of infinite minds and further excited Scientologists with that notion. None of these were original with Crowley, who was as much a relay point as was Hubbard. Yet, unlike Crowley, Hubbard would eventually incorporate the methods of psychological warfare into his system, and use those methods, not only on his perceived enemies, but on his own followers.

And when he finally - in the 1960s - unleashed fully, and covertly, the psychological warfare methods of his "Russian Textbook" on Scientologists, he also returned to fully utilizing those ideas he had briefly tested more than a decade earlier.

He gave Scientologists a past, he gave them a future, he told them the contents of their own minds, and made it plain that only HE knew and others were going to be told.

Hubbard had written confidentially of the importance of "using enemy tactics," and would even use those "enemy tactics" on his own loyal followers. He had written of psychiatrists in August 1963:

"Psychiatry is authoritarian and tells the person what's wrong with him, often introducing a new lie. Scientology finds out what's wrong with the person from the person."

Soon to follow would be the secret and very serious, and very dangerous, and vital to your survival "Clearing Course," "OT 2" and "OT 3," in which Hubbard would do what he said the psychiatrists did.


From 'Science of Survival: Prediction of Human Behavior' - by L. Ron Hubbard, 1951:


The reasonable man quite ordinarily overlooks the fact that people from 2.0 down have no traffic with reason and cannot be reasoned with as one would reason with a 3.0. There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale , neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the tone scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes .

The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow. Adders are safe bedmates compared to people on the lower bands of the tone scale. Not all the beauty nor the handsomeness nor artificial social value nor property can atone for the vicious damage such people do to sane men and women. The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line — a task which, indeed, is not very great, since the amount of processing in many cases might be under fifty hours, although it might also in others be in excess of two hundred — or simply quarantining them from the society.

A Venezuelan dictator [Juan Vincente Gomez ] once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country.



According to Hubbard, an easy way to spot a low toned person was by his attitude towards Dianetics/Scientology and Hubbard.


This was an early expression of what, years later, would be formalized as Disconnection and the Fair Game Law.

If this aspect of Scientology, part of its doctrine since the early 1950s, and woven into that doctrine, were removed form Scientology, it would no longer be Scientology.

A key part of Scientology's Fair Game doctrine is deception: "trick, lie to."

Dealing with those at lower awareness levels, a Scientoogist has no choice but to communicate with them in a less than honest fashion.

It is impossible to be honest - to himself and to others - about Scientology, and to remain a Scientologist for any length of time.

This is the dilemma that outside the CofS Scientologists must face.

It's not enough to remove "green on white" or "Ethics," etc. The entire subject is contaminated.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Thanks, I will have a read.

It's a bit hard to piece together what the situation is from this thread. Can somebody please explain it to me? So far I'm gathering it's something about DMCA requests, threatening to disclose contents of pc folders, falling asleep in session, not refunding unused hours and something about bomb threats? Well, some of those things do indeed sound like fair game policies. I think I avoided that thread at the time because I didn't understand it then either.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
First, I will stipulate that I think people have the "right" to practice Scientology. Where I live there's such a thing as "freedom of religion," and Scientology qualifies as a religion. Of course, in some other countries, either there's no such freedom or Scientology doesn't qualify as a religion. But I digress ...

I think it's an especially unhealthy decision for someone who has left the Church of Scientology and has peeled some of their onion out of Scientology's mindfuck to (you'll excuse the expression) revert. If they then then put themselves back under the psychological and emotional thumbscrews of a practitioner of Scientology -- with all its twisted, bastardized Hubbard-founded versions of personal responsibility, robotism, self-loathing, and super-specialness -- I fear they will wind up double-fucked.

But they still have the right to do this.

God help them.

TG1

You are absolutely right, people have a right to practice mind control masked as a religion for mass consumption while convincing themselves and the public it's acceptable (respectful slight sarcasm). People have a right to be protected, warned, and informed that they are being duped into becoming compliant slaves of hubbard's scientology and legislation is desperately needed to recognize this form of abuse regarding cults.

Do we as a society tolerate rape, elder abuse, child abuse, spousal abuse, etc.? Why are mentally abusive cult systems any different?
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
This is a tricky question to ask. Not because the answer is complex but because the question is complex.

I'm not asking if Scientology should be above the law. It should not. Any activities that break the law should be condemned & dealt with by law enforcement, e.g false imprisonment, using child labour etc. But what about Joe Public who wants to get auditing? What about the guy who wants to train to become an auditor? Should he be stopped from doing that?

No, but he should be thoroughly discouraged and subject to sustained mockery if he goes ahead. As it happens, I'm not convinced that auditing is above the law. It seems to be fraud.
 

Gib

Crusader
"Psychiatry is authoritarian and tells the person what's wrong with him, often introducing a new lie. Scientology finds out what's wrong with the person from the person."

Soon to follow would be the secret and very serious, and very dangerous, and vital to your survival "Clearing Course," "OT 2" and "OT 3," in which Hubbard would do what he said the psychiatrists did.

The fixed idea of a "bridge to to total freedom" was one of the hardest fixed ideas I had to get rid of as installed by hubbard. The "bridge to total freedom" is a evaluation. Even the lower bridge, it is telling people they have upsets, communication problems, fixed conditions, non ability to think clearly in any given situation because they have a reactive mind, no freedom from overwhelm, no ability to be cause over matter, energy, space or time.

unless they travel the "bridge to total freedom"

I'm not saying I didn't have wins or gains.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
You are absolutely right, people have a right to practice mind control masked as a religion for mass consumption while convincing themselves and the public it's acceptable (respectful slight sarcasm). People have a right to be protected, warned, and informed that they are being duped into becoming compliant slaves of hubbard's scientology and legislation is desperately needed to recognize this form of abuse regarding cults.

Do we as a society tolerate rape, elder abuse, child abuse, spousal abuse, etc.? Why are mentally abusive cult systems any different?

Well, they shouldn't be different, which is why CIFS brought the president of Miviludes out to Australia to speak with Members of Parliament. I think it is tolerated because the alternative could be far worse.

Just ask Sydney about growing up in the Jehovah's Witnesses or I can tell you about growing up in the Revival Centres of Australia - both were extremely dysfunctional and spiritually, emotionally and mentally abusive. I have another friend who grew up in the Exclusive Brethren and two of my brother-in-law's sisters want nothing to do with the Catholic church after their treatment by the nuns.

Whose religion stays? Whose goes? Who can demonstrate that their religion is NOT abusive?

LiveLeak-dot-com-36cec2cd7663-jonggeleerdisoudgedaan.jpg
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
The usual is after every grade the auditor holds up the EP and asks
"have you achieved this" or similar. If yes, the grade is completed
And what was promised has been delivered.
Oh, my f&*%$#@ing God! No. What "was promised" has NOT been "delivered". Ever.

If Scientology weren't a complete lie and scam, the auditor would hold up the EP and say, "This is what you should have achieved on this level. Go out and try out these new abilities for a couple of weeks at least and then come back and tell me what you think."

But NO! That isn't done and will never be done in Scientology. No, the auditor catches the person while they are in the post-session euphoria and tells them this is what they've gained - do they agree. The person is euphoric and feels like they could have that -- but they have not experienced these "new abilities" in real life. They feel, in their euphoria, that they just might have all those good things -- but have never experienced any of it yet.

They want the tedious sessions of that "level" to be over. They want to have those abilities. They want to have attained that level.

NO. That whole "attestation" thing is just part of the scam. If you want to be honest, you ask the PC to go out and live with their alleged "new abilities" for a couple of weeks and THEN come back and attest if they still think they have all those promised "new abilities".

But Scientology can't afford to be honest that way. No one would come back and say, "Yes, I experienced all my promised new abilities" after two weeks. No one would make it past Grade 0 if Scientology were honest about it.

>snort< "If Scientology were honest" >snort<

Bill
 

Veda

Sponsor
-snip-

Whose religion stays? Whose goes? Who can demonstrate that their religion is NOT abusive?

-snip-

Scientology is a cult, a business, and a psychological system, one that has lied, and coerced, its way into being called a "religion" by some.

When you support the gullible or coerced who have accepted Hubbard's "religion angle," you make it less likely that Scientology will ever change.
 
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