So what if Scn (not just CofS) goes away?

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Commander Bird Song said:
dianetics was here to stay the day dmsmh was published. period.

Yes, that definition laid out by old batshit crazy still stands and 60 years later not one has yet been produced.

And the "blinded and crippled" condition he claimed to be in has, uh, been seriously disproven.

Oh, those alleged " injuries were from his days as a " war hero" which has also been seriously questioned as to a shred of truth in the tall tales.

Much of what that old paranoia schitzo did has been called into question and he has been proven more madman than messiah.

Do keep DMSMH around. it makes Hubbard look what he was : batshit crazy.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
yeah, "basic-basic" is not viable literally. neither is the concept meaningless.

TRs 0-4? essential and perfect.

Auditor's Code? not letter perfect but pretty good. and it's spirit is noble and essential.

there is a hell of a lot of meat in hubbard's writings.

Why in the world would you leave an outfit with so much to offer you?

Or - LOL ! - are you still in it ?
 

Wisened One

Crusader
Not only that, but imagine if the service center required you to become a fully trained mechanic, and get other people in to become mechanics, so you can all eventually change your own damn oil, but still have to forever report in and pay a fee to make sure you're doing it right and not squirelling sacred and standard mechanic Tech. And no, you can't have your keys back. You sold your car and your mother's car so we could train you, sucker.

YEAH! :laugh: :hifive:
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'll just say: there's still Shakers. True, there's only three living in a single community, but they've survived this long.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Why in the world would you leave an outfit with so much to offer you?

Or - LOL ! - are you still in it ?

It's my understanding he was never in it.

The basics he has referred to, while many have chosen to accept a view of them as hypnotic or dangerous, I still consider to be valid tools, though I wouldn't use them in the manner or context that the Church or the FreeZone does.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
It's my understanding he was never in it.

The basics he has referred to, while many have chosen to accept a view of them as hypnotic or dangerous, I still consider to be valid tools, though I wouldn't use them in the manner or context that the Church or the FreeZone does.

yeah, but, valid for what ? :confused2: Making tools?:duh:
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Dianetics, stripped of Hubbard's theories and reduced to method, is a simple, straightforward regression technique employing cognitive flooding and abreaction as it occurs. While people might argue about its effectiveness, regression, flooding and abreaction are still used effectively by modern psychologists when a person is considered to have the "ego-strength" to handle them.

Sitting quietly, without reaction or judgment, listening carefully to what another person says, acknowledging them unobtrusively, exploring statements they make, directing them back to issues they want resolution with, and ending when further discussion would only bore or aggravate the person: these are skills taught in TR0-4, though Scientology uses other language and has other uses for these skills than just helping another person open up and dump their baggage.
 

Kutta

Silver Meritorious Patron
yeah, "basic-basic" is not viable literally. neither is the concept meaningless.

TRs 0-4? essential and perfect.

Auditor's Code? not letter perfect but pretty good. and it's spirit is noble and essential.

there is a hell of a lot of meat in hubbard's writings.

TRs perfect? But they're what gave us that robotic, blank stare, that no-sympathy-never-give-up-repeat-repeat-repeat till you answer the f'kin question! That giant, fraudulent theory of what real communication consists between actual warm-blooded, alive humans - people not robots.
 
Last edited:

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor's Toad ( re Commander Bird Song )
"Why in the world would you leave an outfit with so much to offer you?

Or - LOL ! - are you still in it ? "


UM replied :

"It's my understanding he was never in it."

<snip>
__________________


Looks like the cult missed one that ripe on the vine and ready for picking.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Thetanic,

Your point is well taken.

I'm wondering, though, if any non CofS Scn'ists are worrying and are concerned at the idea of Scn going away and feel that nothing else comes close to it. I realize this would depend on the individual but it is my speculation that some feel this way.
 

thetanic

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm wondering, though, if any non CofS Scn'ists are worrying and are concerned at the idea of Scn going away and feel that nothing else comes close to it. I realize this would depend on the individual but it is my speculation that some feel this way.

It's the fear that's driven into us over and over and over while we're in, I think.
 

SomeGuy

Patron Meritorious
I'm reminded of an old addage.

If you go to a oncologist with a chest cold, he's going to look for lung cancer. Hell of a way to cure a simple cold.
 
Dianetics, stripped of Hubbard's theories and reduced to method, is a simple, straightforward regression technique employing cognitive flooding and abreaction as it occurs. While people might argue about its effectiveness, regression, flooding and abreaction are still used effectively by modern psychologists when a person is considered to have the "ego-strength" to handle them.

Sitting quietly, without reaction or judgment, listening carefully to what another person says, acknowledging them unobtrusively, exploring statements they make, directing them back to issues they want resolution with, and ending when further discussion would only bore or aggravate the person: these are skills taught in TR0-4, though Scientology uses other language and has other uses for these skills than just helping another person open up and dump their baggage.

Referring to regressive therapy as Dianetics or Scientology is like referring to every type of electrical generation plant as Chernobyl, or every factory on the planet as the Union Carbide plant in Bhopal India.

Electricity is useful but generating it as they did in Chernobyl ends in disaster, just as regressive therapy is useful but looking to L Ron Hubbard for it, ends in disaster.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Thanks for stating the obvious, Chuck. This doesn't mean that the successful active ingredients didn't provide some benefit for "parishioners", despite the obvious flaws in the culture and in the crazy bells and whistles (like looking for a "birth engram" or "attempted abortion", nevermind the questions about "past lives").
 
Thanks for stating the obvious, Chuck. This doesn't mean that the successful active ingredients didn't provide some benefit for "parishioners", despite the obvious flaws in the culture and in the crazy bells and whistles (like looking for a "birth engram" or "attempted abortion", nevermind the questions about "past lives").

You sound like a chemical industry lobbyist trying to claim dumping toxic sewage into our drinking water supplies can be beneficial because there are trace amounts of nutrients in the toxic sewage.

There is no need to discount the benefits of vital minerals such as Iron, Calcium and Magnesium, you can't say that minerals like these are not vital to sustaining good health, therefore it would be shortsighted to discount dumping toxic waste into our water supplies which contain these minerals.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
The SuperStupid future of Scientology (cross posted accordingly)....

PREDICTION: The Bridge 25 years from now, in 2036.

Someone will be running the Church of Scientology that is the scripturally authenticated reincarnation of L. Ron Hubbard. His this-lifetime name will be Morris or as he will be affectionately known to his parishioners, simply "Mo".

MoRon will put the fun back into Scientology.

The Grade Chart will have changed very slightly.




SUPER TOTAL FREEDOM (1)
TOTAL FREEDOM (2)
OT XVI
OT XV
OT XIV
OT XIII
OT XII
OT XI
OT X
OT IX
OT VIII
OT VII
OT VI
OT V
OT IV
OT III
OT II
OT I
CLEAR
GRADE VI
GRADE V
GRADE IV
GRADE III
GRADE II
GRADE I
GRADE 0
ARC S/W
LIFE REPAIR
PURIF
WOG

1. Super Total Freedom (Positive gain, the first actual OT level)
2. Total Freedom (Negative gain, removes the final barrier to OT)
)​
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
You sound like a chemical industry lobbyist trying to claim dumping toxic sewage into our drinking water supplies can be beneficial because there are trace amounts of nutrients in the toxic sewage.

There is no need to discount the benefits of vital minerals such as Iron, Calcium and Magnesium, you can't say that minerals like these are not vital to sustaining good health, therefore it would be shortsighted to discount dumping toxic waste into our water supplies which contain these minerals.

Hmm... you seem to have missed my point. Perhaps I didn't make it well. The reason I got into dianetics was not that it didn't work or that someone clubbed me. It DID work, after reading the book, on a friend in session after one read through. So I called up to find about learning more. Then I got more benefits from other techniques. They also "worked".

I'm not saying it ALL works, or that it does what Hubbard said. I'm saying there are active ingredients that DO work, and this is why dianetics and scientology get a grip on people.
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
So what if Scn (not just CofS) goes away?

Interesting question. My answer is that it's happening right now. We're living through the end of Scientology. Not just the CofS, but Scientology itself.

LRH fiercely defended his position as the only person who held the keys to Scientology. He was 'source' and anybody else who created something had to either give up all their intellectual property to Ron... or be declared a squirrel and destroyed. This was the pattern throughout Scientology's history.

The notion that only LRH could define the Tech served LRH very well, but as soon as he became unfit to hold the reins, Scientology lost its way. By ruthlessly eliminating any 'threat', Scientology was decapitated from the moment when LRH became unwell, and was doomed when he died. For years, any person who showed initiative or who acquired his own following within the structure was driven out or betrayed, and it was this that would cause Scientology to begin its slide into oblivion.

If Ron thought about that at all, in any lucid moments he may have had in the last months of his life, I imagine it would have pleased him. To see that Scientology wasn't going to survive without him would have buffed his ego: he was essential.

After Ron, and after decades of pruning any author or mission-holder who seemed likely to rise above the pack, Scientology lost its way. When seeking the solution to a problem, what had once been "ask yourself what Ron would do" became "go and find what Ron said". The built-in protection of Ron as sole source of wisdom outlived its usefulness, because it outlived Ron. In effect, any person in management from the mid-80's onwards was a caretaker, or perhaps a curator.

Of course, any move to add to or alter the Tech would have been controversial, and would have led to schism. We have seen a moderate amount of dissent and attempts at several 'reformation' movements as a result... but in choosing to fossilize Scientology as that which Ron wrote, the remaining Scientologists missed a major point that is obvious to anybody once they get out from under the Scientology mindset:

Scientology was always changing. When people were worried about nuclear war, it claimed to have solution for radiation burns. When the populace grew interested in aliens, Scientology's founder told them about his experiences on Mars and Venus. Growing divorce rate? Try Scientology. Increasing drug use? Put Scientology in. And so on.

Scientology was faddy. Ron himself was inconsistent, and diverted himself with a great many different things throughout his life... but when Ron was gone, Scientology ceased to adapt itself in pursuit of relevance to society.

That's why Scientology is going away. In a few hundred years, scholars (and nobody else) will study the paraphernalia of Scientology in much the same way as they would study the cults of Apollo or Mithras. Much of the written work will survive (particularly in electronic form) because modern society likes to preserve things in museums and libraries... but the practice of Scientology will have ceased, long since.

What you have to remember about LRH is his gift for hyperbole. He was a 20th century PT Barnum. Big on promises! It isn't that he had a gift for telling people what they wanted to hear; it's that he told them what he needed them to hear. Whatever was expedient. So, once Scientology acquired its Space Opera mantle, it became "the planet's only hope!" You have to work that 16-hour day, for fifteen bucks a week, because the future of everybody on this world is at stake!!!

It's just Hubbard hyperbole. And remember, it isn't doing him any good anymore. He's dead and gone.

Hubbard had a long, long history of messing things up, and running away. His education. The disastrous Caribbean expedition. The Alaskan Radio Expedition. His Military career. His three marriages. His time at Saint Hill. France. Morocco. In fact, it's hard to think of much that poor old Ron Hubbard actually got right.

He messed up Scientology, too. He did not leave it in a condition where it could survive, both as a result of his hounding out anybody with ability for several decades and because it had far too many in-built flaws and outpoints.

So Scientology is doomed: but once again, Hubbard got what he wanted from it, and he got away Scott Free.

Just like always.
 

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
assuming ...

The concern about this (in scientology) started with Hubbard, and is promulgated heavily in the "Student Hat" course, which nearly every serious Scientologist has to take as a prerequisite to taking any Academy courses. The idea is that it is possible to lose "the Tech" due to people misunderstanding it, piece by piece, through incorrect transmission: either incorrect training, or incorrect study, leading to incorrect application and then a chain of misunderstandings piled onto each other, until the subject ceases being recognizable as whatever Hubbard had intended Scientology to be (I leave that open). This fear is echoed in KSW, Safeguarding Technology, Wordclearing Series, Case Supervision materials, and is one of the primary functions of Qual. Miscavige capitalizes on it when he wants to force a book boom by saying there was a problem with earlier books, so you must now buy the new ones which more properly transmit Hubbard's exact intentions for and understanding of the subject. Misduplication is considered a very serious offense, a mere justification for those who are secretly harboring counter-intention or other-intention to Hubbard's own "command intention".

I am not concerned about Scientology disappearing or going away. Large parts of its understanding originated outside of Hubbard or his writers-for-hire. The particular "processes" and "rundowns" are sales gimmicks for people who haven't understood the subject. When you understand the subject, you don't need trademarked or copyrighted methods, you can create them based on the needs of a client. You don't even need copyrighted and trademarked words, as they are just labels for ideas that cannot be copyrighted or trademarked.

Since the understanding that underpinned the subject didn't originate with Hubbard, concern about his death, or the wholesale rejection of his work, can be released. What contributions he may have made were largely in the direction of confusing the subject and then making those confusions confidential. That's my opinion.

Assuming that there was at least some validity to the subject to start with, an emphasis on exact duplication/transmitted 100% without any misunderstoods/an emphasis on exact duplication of techniques as opposed to an understanding of the underlying philosophy of the subject which is supposed to be senior to the tech (as per a discussion by Ray Kemp, the video file of which should should still be on xenutv) ... all of that, as opposed to an emphasis on allowing/encouraging the tech to evolve was a guarantee that things came to where they are today and where they are headed to by Cof$.

Take a hypothetical case of Zenith vs RCA circa 1946 with the first TV sets that came out. Let's say that Zenith went the Ron route, and had a corporate culture of EXACT DUPLICATION ... "we must safeguard the tech since we have a workable TV set" ... with a 9" round black and white picture tube and this huge enclosure filled with vacuum tubes, etc. Suppose RCA went the route of "technology evolves". Guess which company goes out of business.

Again, assuming at least some validity to the subject ... if the objective was truely "planetary clearing" as opposed to "make money, make more money" then structuring the bridge to get people trained up to solo audit at the earliest possible point would be the way to go. Ken Ogger did some work along those lines, his material is available for free on the web.

Bottom line ... technology has to evolve and progress just to stay current with everything else that is evolving and progressing. Otherwise, why bother with e-meters and auditing sessions, just join the Amish.

Pete
 
Top