So what if Scn (not just CofS) goes away?

GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
cute

The SuperStupid future of Scientology (cross posted accordingly)....

PREDICTION: The Bridge 25 years from now, in 2036.

Someone will be running the Church of Scientology that is the scripturally authenticated reincarnation of L. Ron Hubbard. His this-lifetime name will be Morris or as he will be affectionately known to his parishioners, simply "Mo".

MoRon will put the fun back into Scientology.

The Grade Chart will have changed very slightly.




SUPER TOTAL FREEDOM (1)
TOTAL FREEDOM (2)
OT XVI
OT XV
OT XIV
OT XIII
OT XII
OT XI
OT X
OT IX
OT VIII
OT VII
OT VI
OT V
OT IV
OT III
OT II
OT I
CLEAR
GRADE VI
GRADE V
GRADE IV
GRADE III
GRADE II
GRADE I
GRADE 0
ARC S/W
LIFE REPAIR
PURIF
WOG

1. Super Total Freedom (Positive gain, the first actual OT level)
2. Total Freedom (Negative gain, removes the final barrier to OT)
)​

I suppose that on OTIX is where the pre-ot finds that there are shitloads of beetees still hiding out in his space. They were previously undetected because not only were they clustered, but they were enclosed in pods, similar to the pods that horse chestnuts are in on trees. These pods were mistaken for some other case phenomena, due to an espee transcriptionist altering the definition for floating needles and other alter-ises. But now that these pods are seen for what they are, cases are flying and the results are nothing short of amazing. Redges are standing by right now to schedule your auditing and/or work with you to get up the bridge, just call 1-800-roadapple

Pete
 
hi UM

Toad, why are you impugning Birdsong? What Kool-Aid do you think he's swallowed?

AT is fine with me UM. he has his take on it. it's a goddam free country goddammit and if he didn't have a right to his own take on it i'd be fighting to get him the right. right alongside you, ya stupid son of an irishman
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
Yeah, I would fight for his right to say what's on his mind, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to know why it was on his mind!
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
I read the thread.

Keep hanging out.

Saying that Dianetics was here to stay doesn't mean he swallowed "kool aid".
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Dianetics, stripped of Hubbard's theories and reduced to method, is a simple, straightforward regression technique employing cognitive flooding and abreaction as it occurs. While people might argue about its effectiveness, regression, flooding and abreaction are still used effectively by modern psychologists when a person is considered to have the "ego-strength" to handle them.

Sitting quietly, without reaction or judgment, listening carefully to what another person says, acknowledging them unobtrusively, exploring statements they make, directing them back to issues they want resolution with, and ending when further discussion would only bore or aggravate the person: these are skills taught in TR0-4, though Scientology uses other language and has other uses for these skills than just helping another person open up and dump their baggage.

You, of course, are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.

I do not share the beliefs that Hubbard brought the world much other to relieve them of money forhimself, promises he couldn't fulfill, some broken up families, some broken people, and some unnecessarily dead people.

He may be a hero to some but is not to me.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
I didn't say anything that contradicts what you state as your beliefs.

Regression, cognitive flooding and abreaction were not created by Hubbard. Dianetics is a brand-name slapped on that combination.

Listening and helping another person stay focused on what they came for help with is not a creation of Hubbard's, either. The TRs 0-4 can help a person understand how to do this.
 
so what is a hero?

You, of course, are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.

I do not share the beliefs that Hubbard brought the world much other to relieve them of money forhimself, promises he couldn't fulfill, some broken up families, some broken people, and some unnecessarily dead people.

He may be a hero to some but is not to me.

i don't know what the guy was. CoS has some fairly brisk policy which is somewhat dangerous in he nands of vicious morons. no AT i did not and will not drink the koolaid. i found wine there and still sip it
 

apocalyptic

Patron with Honors
Of course, I'd welcome any discussion on this. But my actual question as written in the thread title is for non CofS Scientologists.

A lot of critics refer to Scn going away completely. Not just CofS. I personally think the ideas will persist but piecemeal and often not identified as Scn or Dianetics. But that's ONLY my guess.

What if --way in the future-- there was so much bowdlerization of Hubbard books where the cult really got a hold of most copies of the originals, others were lost, people drifted away from both the church and non church scene and...

there was nothing called Scn. Not Free Zone. Not indie.

Would the non CofS (or CofS ones, if there are any here) Scn'ists here feel that mankind's best hope was gone? Would any of you feel that not only are there are other methods and belief systems and spinoffs out there that have commonality with Scn, but that those things might be just as effective as Scn and Dn ever were at keeping man from the dwindling spiral?

Or would you feel more like, ok, they're there but it's not going to be good enough, it won't be as good as Scn as far as dealing with cases and keeping people off the dwindling spiral.

I think that some people would think that there are other methods out there that could be good but it really would NOT be as good as if there was auditing and LRH tech around. I also think some non CofS Scn'ists might not feel that way. I think the tech purists among the Indies and FZers might find this hypothetical issue a potential problem for mankind, though.

The idea for this thread germinated in my mind based on things my husband has said to me and that I sometimes see non CofS Scn'ists discussing here and there.

I used to really really worry about this issue. In CofS, they want you to worry about it. They want you to be flat out terrified, IMO. I do think, though, that this worry and fear can be found in non church Scn venues, too, sometimes.

Whaddaya think?

Damn. This post is a beautiful illustration of our being able to both love and hate something, at the seemingly very same time. Lol. So to speak.

You go girl.

We'll challenge you when the need arises. But not before, or until, then.

Nice post.

Apoc
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
Does anyone still think there is a point in searching for an imaginary basic-basic engram, or entertaining Hubbard's silly redefinitions of the subconscious and subconscious mind?

If someone is interested in regressive therapy to uncover repressed traumatic incidents, there are much better ways of doing it without including all of worthless baggage and false absolutes that Hubbard added to it. Not to mention the imaginary state of Clear, or his asinine nerd's club vocabulary.

Regressive therapy can be accomplished quite successfully and without the side-effects of Hubbard's mindfuck, if you stay clear of Hubbard's material.

There are better routes than DMSMH, which is an art if it can be worked at all and does not give consistent results person to person. Also it is incomplete, possibly the HSDC was the pinnacle.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
Of course, I'd welcome any discussion on this. But my actual question as written in the thread title is for non CofS Scientologists.

A lot of critics refer to Scn going away completely. Not just CofS. I personally think the ideas will persist but piecemeal and often not identified as Scn or Dianetics. But that's ONLY my guess.

What if --way in the future-- there was so much bowdlerization of Hubbard books where the cult really got a hold of most copies of the originals, others were lost, people drifted away from both the church and non church scene and...

there was nothing called Scn. Not Free Zone. Not indie.

Would the non CofS (or CofS ones, if there are any here) Scn'ists here feel that mankind's best hope was gone? Would any of you feel that not only are there are other methods and belief systems and spinoffs out there that have commonality with Scn, but that those things might be just as effective as Scn and Dn ever were at keeping man from the dwindling spiral?

Or would you feel more like, ok, they're there but it's not going to be good enough, it won't be as good as Scn as far as dealing with cases and keeping people off the dwindling spiral.

I think that some people would think that there are other methods out there that could be good but it really would NOT be as good as if there was auditing and LRH tech around. I also think some non CofS Scn'ists might not feel that way. I think the tech purists among the Indies and FZers might find this hypothetical issue a potential problem for mankind, though.

The idea for this thread germinated in my mind based on things my husband has said to me and that I sometimes see non CofS Scn'ists discussing here and there.

I used to really really worry about this issue. In CofS, they want you to worry about it. They want you to be flat out terrified, IMO. I do think, though, that this worry and fear can be found in non church Scn venues, too, sometimes.

Whaddaya think?

I think Claire is wrestling with the last of daemons and has won.

I think there are so many avenues, and that a simple restatement of some very simple basics would give all the path Scientology had without the trauma or policy or organizational bullshit. ARC, KRC, comm cycle, TR's 0-IV, cycle of action, is-ness, as-isness and alter-is, pervade and know, definition of space and a static and motion, e-meter drills, R3R, L1C, some of the other correction lists, a simple solo course and the cobbled-together Tech Vol 14 pretty much summarizes it.

You can throw Scientology ethics in the trash and summarize is for the individual as "Do the right things, that which you at your core know are right." Policy is fucking useless 1950's distraction.

From that Free Solo Processing or the Pilot's route, maybe Excaliber with a grain of salt, any of that would have ALL of the impact of any delusional standard tech.

I could see adding objective processes to this as well, but they need not be overrun, dammit.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
TRs perfect? But they're what gave us that robotic, blank stare, that no-sympathy-never-give-up-repeat-repeat-repeat till you answer the f'kin question! That giant, fraudulent theory of what real communication consists between actual warm-blooded, alive humans - people not robots.

It doesn't have to produce that. It can be a productive guide to breaking down and drilling pieces of a communication. Done rotely without an understanding of the whole of communication, and without a view toward that whole communication, you get the reduction ad absurdem of blank stares and robotic communication.

Doesn't have to be that way. The idea of breaking comm into pieces and drilling one at a time is sound, the execution may be flawed and more accurate breakdown and drills certainly possible.

But for a shy being who is terrified of reaching out they are magical and powerful.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
Yah. I mean, I was always told that if you get the flat blank robotic stare, etc, that yer doing it rong.

My husband and I were both course supvs. John, of course, being a much better one than I. John's really really smart and decent. He once had a student who thought everything was just wonderful fantastic awesome. No matter what it was. You know what he did? He told the student to slow down and think it over. What was it about Scn that he liked and why was it so good?

Now, John was already sold on Scn but this robotic unquestioning acceptance made him nervous. Because, for those of us who were really into tech for tech's sake, because we thought it was good stuff, didn't want automatons.

DM wants automatons.

It appears that Hubbard did, too.

I've met many staff who wanted automatons.

But not everyone did.

I've pointed out again and again and again that the subject is the subject. The church is the church. LRH is LRH. This does not mean that I see no flaws in the subject. In fact, even if I flat out hated everything about the subject, I would still say that the subject is the subject, the church is the church, LRH is LRH.

The subject as written in books is the way it it. Or, should I say, "ways" since it's a whole bunch of different ideas and techniques and stuff. The cult is what it is. A cult is not its ideology. There sure as hell is a dovetailing. Just about everyone here (including me!!!!!!!!!) believes that if it weren't for Hubbard's ideas, views, actions and writings, that guys like DM and the shitty horrible abuses just wouldn't have happened. And I get that.

But all the same, like it, hate it, disdain it, cherry pick it, toss the whole thing out- the subject as written is not the same entity as the group.

This means that concepts can be reviewed individually and should be. That doesn't mean that they are good concepts. It just means they are concepts. Period.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
Yah. I mean, I was always told that if you get the flat blank robotic stare, etc, that yer doing it rong.

My husband and I were both course supvs. John, of course, being a much better one than I. John's really really smart and decent. He once had a student who thought everything was just wonderful fantastic awesome. No matter what it was. You know what he did? He told the student to slow down and think it over. What was it about Scn that he liked and why was it so good?

Now, John was already sold on Scn but this robotic unquestioning acceptance made him nervous. Because, for those of us who were really into tech for tech's sake, because we thought it was good stuff, didn't want automatons.

DM wants automatons.

It appears that Hubbard did, too.

I've met many staff who wanted automatons.

But not everyone did.

I've pointed out again and again and again that the subject is the subject. The church is the church. LRH is LRH. This does not mean that I see no flaws in the subject. In fact, even if I flat out hated everything about the subject, I would still say that the subject is the subject, the church is the church, LRH is LRH.

The subject as written in books is the way it it. Or, should I say, "ways" since it's a whole bunch of different ideas and techniques and stuff. The cult is what it is. A cult is not its ideology. There sure as hell is a dovetailing. Just about everyone here (including me!!!!!!!!!) believes that if it weren't for Hubbard's ideas, views, actions and writings, that guys like DM and the shitty horrible abuses just wouldn't have happened. And I get that.

But all the same, like it, hate it, disdain it, cherry pick it, toss the whole thing out- the subject as written is not the same entity as the group.

This means that concepts can be reviewed individually and should be. That doesn't mean that they are good concepts. It just means they are concepts. Period.


Sup'ed academy at a Class V org. Robotic is doing it wrong, as far as communication.

I've heard over and over that "CCH's and Op Pro by Dup and TR's are hypnotic, that's where the tricks are that tie people to Scio." But - you run the PC until that hypnotic heaviness blows, if you run them right. And if you don't plow a PC into a huge overrun (in other words - take that first EP) the gains are lasting.

The hypnotic part the Church uses is in the culture, the light hypnotic state after a win, the reg cycles, the ethics and justice, the threatening of your eternity. The only-road-out bullshit. The stuff that surrounds actual betterment activity.

That could be stripped away. All of it. I hope it is in "Indep. Scio". But you'd have to drop a lot of the lies away, and that's literally half of the shining path - you no longer have a yellow-brick road.

You're left with a workable path, if its workable for you.
 
Sup'ed academy at a Class V org. Robotic is doing it wrong, as far as communication.

I've heard over and over that "CCH's and Op Pro by Dup and TR's are hypnotic, that's where the tricks are that tie people to Scio." But - you run the PC until that hypnotic heaviness blows, if you run them right. And if you don't plow a PC into a huge overrun (in other words - take that first EP) the gains are lasting.

The hypnotic part the Church uses is in the culture, the light hypnotic state after a win, the reg cycles, the ethics and justice, the threatening of your eternity. The only-road-out bullshit. The stuff that surrounds actual betterment activity.

That could be stripped away. All of it. I hope it is in "Indep. Scio". But you'd have to drop a lot of the lies away, and that's literally half of the shining path - you no longer have a yellow-brick road.

You're left with a workable path, if its workable for you.

:thumbsup:


Mark A. Baker
 

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
If the CHURCH of SCIENTOLOGY goes away?

There would be a chance of a world WITHOUT INSANITY!
A world without CRIMINALITY!
A world without WAR!
WHERE HONEST PEOPLE HAVE RIGHTS!:happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance::happydance:
HIP HIP HOORAY! :happydance:
 
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