Some Questions

[svonhatten]

This was the only logical place that I felt I could put this post. I'll get straight to the point:

I was raised in Christianity with the thought that there was no other lifestyle. It was a very cultic atmosphere. When I moved out of my mom's house, I decided to screw religion in general. I received little or no help getting out of my mom's cultic Christian atmosphere (stuff like only watching TBN, no privacy, no other churches, only Christian friends, etc.). I was pretty much soured on organized religion altogether. However, as I began coming out of my shell (mainly with Scientology and the Unitarian Universalist Church in Utah) I began realizing that not all individuals in organized religion were bad.

Because of this, I restarted my search for who God was and what God was to us. I tried being an atheist, but I couldn't. It did work for a while, but chance, when it comes down to it, is nothing.

So coming to the conclusion that God is in existence, this creates a dilhemma. I am just not sure what to believe about God.

Point is, I want to know what others think about who God is and what he wants with us. I have laid out some questions that I feel need answering. I've asked some of these questions (along with others) to pastors and rabbis, but they seem to ignore me after a while. That's one of the reasons I stayed in Scientology, because I thought they could answer my questions, or I find out who God is for myself with Scientology's help. For example, the Bridge to Total Freedom and the 8th Dynamic. Five years later, I have found very little emphasis on who/what/where God is. Most of the focus is on the individual.

Anyway, here are the questions:

- Who, what, and where is God?
- Worship God? Doesn't he have a big enough ego?
- What's the REAL point of worship, and WHY should I WANT to worship God?
- How does God talk to people? How do you know it is God?
- What am I supposed to believe about God? Why? How do I know it's true?

Any answers will be very much appreciated; especially if you are a former Scientologist... but ALL opinions are great.

Responses including: "Pray to Jesus" and other Bible rants will not be considered... just fyi. I've gotten too many of those, and honestly? I'm a little tired of them.

-Steve

 

[popsweetland]

This was the only logical place that I felt I could put this post. I'll get straight to the point:

I was raised in Christianity with the thought that there was no other lifestyle. It was a very cultic atmosphere. When I moved out of my mom's house, I decided to screw religion in general. I received little or no help getting out of my mom's cultic Christian atmosphere (stuff like only watching TBN, no privacy, no other churches, only Christian friends, etc.). I was pretty much soured on organized religion altogether. However, as I began coming out of my shell (mainly with Scientology and the Unitarian Universalist Church in Utah) I began realizing that not all individuals in organized religion were bad.

Because of this, I restarted my search for who God was and what God was to us. I tried being an atheist, but I couldn't. It did work for a while, but chance, when it comes down to it, is nothing.

So coming to the conclusion that God is in existence, this creates a dilhemma. I am just not sure what to believe about God.

Point is, I want to know what others think about who God is and what he wants with us. I have laid out some questions that I feel need answering. I've asked some of these questions (along with others) to pastors and rabbis, but they seem to ignore me after a while. That's one of the reasons I stayed in Scientology, because I thought they could answer my questions, or I find out who God is for myself with Scientology's help. For example, the Bridge to Total Freedom and the 8th Dynamic. Five years later, I have found very little emphasis on who/what/where God is. Most of the focus is on the individual.

Anyway, here are the questions:

- Who, what, and where is God?
- Worship God? Doesn't he have a big enough ego?
- What's the REAL point of worship, and WHY should I WANT to worship God?
- How does God talk to people? How do you know it is God?
- What am I supposed to believe about God? Why? How do I know it's true?

Any answers will be very much appreciated; especially if you are a former Scientologist... but ALL opinions are great.

Responses including: "Pray to Jesus" and other Bible rants will not be considered... just fyi. I've gotten too many of those, and honestly? I'm a little tired of them.

-Steve

Sunday -- March 18, 2007 9:25PM

Steve -

Grow up!!! You're 18 years old.... not a sniveling adolescent!!! Take these questions to a Christianity site, not an Ex- Scientology site!!

Have the courtesy of at least attempting to answer some of the questions that I have raised in your previous posts rather than going off on this off topic tangent.

There are those who are already convinced that you (like Truthseeker) are mere "characters" created by an OSA committee, but I choose to continue to "BELIEVE" that you are the human being whose picture is in the profile on this group.

--- Popsweetland

P.S. 9:50PM as stated in my private e-mail to you this post is a bit harsh, but if you are the guy in the picture, you can take it in stride. I look forward to some feed back on the questions. Good Luck -- there are many many many places to seel answers regarding "god" other than an ex-Scientology web site.

 

[svonhatten]

Sunday -- March 18, 2007 9:25PM

Steve -

Grow up!!! You're 18 years old.... not a sniveling adolescent!!! Take these questions to a Christianity site, not an Ex- Scientology site!!

Have the courtesy of at least attempting to answer some of the questions that I have raised in your previous posts rather than going off on this off topic tangent.

There are those who are already convinced that you (like Truthseeker) are mere "characters" created by an OSA committee, but I choose to continue to "BELIEVE" that you are the human being whose picture is in the profile on this group.

--- Popsweetland

P.S. 9:50PM as stated in my private e-mail to you this post is a bit harsh, but if you are the guy in the picture, you can take it in stride. I look forward to some feed back on the questions. Good Luck -- there are many many many places to seel answers regarding "god" other than an ex-Scientology web site.

Popsweetland -

Sorry if you don't think this is the place for this. I can certainly understand your position. However, perhaps I was a bit harsh, and perhaps I was a little misinformed.

I believe it was Claire that said seeking God helped with recovery from the CoS. I still believe that Scientology works, but the CoS isn't the best for it. In fact, it's cultic. This is based on personal observation. This led me to believe that perhaps "finding God" would be appropriate seeing as how I pretty much left the CoS.

I appreciate you bringing the idea that I'm another OSA op, considering the fact that I believe that there are a few among you all that are also; making it harder to trust critics. I'm beginning to recieve flaming e-mails and now I understand why.

I also came to a conclusion this evening. I'm not trying to troll or anything, but this will probably be my last post to this forum. My last post to ARS will soon follow. Sitting around just posting about Scientology isn't going to do anything. If there's anything I can't stand it's "not getting to the point" and "BSing." Much like my dad in the latter essence.

http://www.myspace.com/mmmm_pork

Even though posting this address will leak my REAL location, Santa Maria, I don't care at this point anymore. Maybe you can pass that around to some of the people that have been spreading that I'm another OSA Op for me. I'll post it on my last ARS post just as soon as I can "work things out" with Butterflygrrrl. I think she and I are on completely different pages.

If people are saying that because I was warming up to Barbara Schwarz, it's because she was trying to help me out. I admire and appreciate that from ANYONE regardless of their race, religion, creed, gender, or anything. Sane or insane, she has provided me with some encouraging advice. So did Claire, and Barbara Graham made me laugh.

You're right Popsweet, though. I'll take this to some other site/forum/person. I may be back from time to time to drop by and see how things are, but I also think I need to concentrate on my studies. Especially since I have 2 tests, one midterm and a math test coming up.

So long and farewell on a good note.

-Steve

 

[popsweetland]

Steve -

Thank you for this response. It sounds like your plan may be wise. Following are a few more thoughts.

Popsweetland -

Sorry if you don't think this is the place for this. I can certainly understand your position.

This is primarily a "place" for ex-scientologists (or I should say ex-COS-scientologists).

However, perhaps I was a bit harsh, and perhaps I was a little misinformed.

Well --I don't think YOU were "harsh" and I don't know what you are refering to being "misinformed" about. My frustration came through because I have been curious as to what your thoughts were regarding the questions I had raised in my earlier posts? I wondered whether you you were returning to the COS or getting more active in the Freezone or like Tarbaby and myself and others "washing our hands" of Hubbard while still analyzing where our journeys had taken us, what we had learned and what we could pass on to others.
[/QUOTE]

I believe it was Claire that said seeking God helped with recovery from the CoS.

Regardless of who said it, I agree with it. But "seeking God" is very loaded. I would interpret "seeking God" as seeking a Unity of Truth. Love, and Beauty.

I still believe that Scientology works,

OK??? but you continue to committ the High Crime of failing to disavow and disconnect from a declared SP. i.e. ME. Either that is one part of Scientology that you have rejected or ...... ??? [/QUOTE]

but the CoS isn't the best for it.

OK... so you, like Claire (Fluffy) are a Freezone Scientologist?? I can go acccept that. I have had very limited "engagement" with Claire, but admire her fesityness even if I don't quite follow all of her logic. She is very clear about where she stands!

In fact, it's cultic. This is based on personal observation.

"Cultic" is a very loaded word that has come to mean some form of "destructive (to the individual) thought limiting, manipulative organization."
Does this means that you have truly left the COS???? Have you publicly resigned? Not that you have to, but I am just not clear where you, Steve, are in relationship to the COS.

This led me to believe that perhaps "finding God" would be appropriate seeing as how I pretty much left the CoS.

I don't understand the "pretty much left the COS". Sounds like some lingering doubts that should be resolved.

I appreciate you bringing the idea that I'm another OSA op,

I don't play the game of "who is OSA?" because very frankly, I don;t give a damn. Over the years I have taken many phone calls from "exiting Scientologists" or at least people who claim to be. Sometimes they will ask whether I am OSA. I answer it thus: "No, I am not. But there is no way to prove that. An OSA undercober operative (as with any "undercover agent" must be a good liar. I did some undercover work for the Guardians Office in the late 70s. So... I don't really care if someone is lying to me regarding their religious affiliation. If they are lying then shame on them. We are not committing any crime by discussing religion and philosophy and even politics.... at least not here in the U.S.A.

considering the fact that I believe that there are a few among you all that are also; making it harder to trust critics.

Steve - don't "trust" critics. Don't "trust" your professors. Don't trust the "minister". "Trust" is something very limited and specific. When you deposit money ina bank you trust the bank NOT to engage in identitiy theft or steal your money. You "trust" your teacher to truly be taching Plato when he says he is teaching Plato and that it is not really Nietche that he is misleading you with. BE AWARE AND CONSCIOUS OF WHO YOU TRUST.

Hubbard, tells us point blank the limits of the trust we can place in him and his organizations. "We will never betray your trust in us SO LONG AS YOU ARE ONE OF US." I no longer put my trust in a person or organization that holds that philosophy. I am baffled by the fact that I did for so long. That statement was always there in plain site in The Aims of Scn , but I never really stopped to think about what it meant and that it truly is what is practiced!

I'm beginning to recieve flaming e-mails and now I understand why.

I hope you don't classify anything I have said as "flaming" - but I must admit some frustration at your unwillingness to respond to my earlier e-mails. That, of course, is your right, but when questions are asked from a depth of sincerity and they are answered in kind and the only response is "silence" then I wonder to whom I am speaking.

I also came to a conclusion this evening. I'm not trying to troll or anything, but this will probably be my last post to this forum. My last post to ARS will soon follow. Sitting around just posting about Scientology isn't going to do anything. If there's anything I can't stand it's "not getting to the point" and "BSing." Much like my dad in the latter essence.

That may not be a bad idea. If what you want to do is "engage" in true "DIALOG" .... true "TWO WAY COMMUNICATION" then I would welcome you to stay and engage. If what you want to do is just engage in Hubbard's form of "two way comm" which is really "one way interrogation" and (let's be honest Steve) with me at least that is all it has been then it does get very frustrating. You will draw only "flames" or silence.

http://www.myspace.com/mmmm_pork

Even though posting this address will leak my REAL location, Santa Maria, I don't care at this point anymore.

Well my real location is right down the road in Simi Valley. If you ever want to have a cup of coffee and chat face-to-face I 'd be glad to meet you.

Maybe you can pass that around to some of the people that have been spreading that I'm another OSA Op for me.

With all due respect .. it will find its own way around. I am not really that much into the ARS scene.

I'll post it on my last ARS post just as soon as I can "work things out" with Butterflygrrrl. I think she and I are on completely different pages.

I don't know who that is. Again, I don't really follow ARS much. Too much "noise".

If people are saying that because I was warming up to Barbara Schwarz, it's because she was trying to help me out. I admire and appreciate that from ANYONE regardless of their race, religion, creed, gender, or anything. Sane or insane,

We all get to choose our sources of inspiration.

she has provided me with some encouraging advice. So did Claire, and Barbara Graham made me laugh.

You're right Popsweet, though. I'll take this to some other site/forum/person.

Advice I would give to any 18 year old person is to pursue their college education. Think critically. Engage in debate, discussion, and dialog especially with those who look at the world differently. It will helo you form your own world view and not just adopt someone elses. Print out a copy of Carl Sagan's "Baloney Detection Kit" (it's only one page and will help immensely.)

I may be back from time to time to drop by and see how things are, but I also think I need to concentrate on my studies.

Do check back in as time allows.... You may also get some interesting responses on the GOD issues that you raise. Undoubtedly some on this site may be upset with me for having scared you away... but that is the risk of engaging in dialog.

Especially since I have 2 tests, one midterm and a math test coming up.

So long and farewell on a good note.

-Steve

Do well in your studies.....

T(ruth)
L(ove)
C(ourage)

Popsweetland

 

[freet43]

I still believe that Scientology works, but the CoS isn't the best for it. In fact, it's cultic. This is based on personal observation.

Steve,

This is big and I just want to acknowledge your observation.

In a few short weeks, you've seen the truth that many who are older, and claim to be wiser, are unable to comprehend - that Scn. and the CO$ are not the same thing.

making it harder to trust critics.

The only one you can trust is yourself - and given that, you can then connect with those that you want to. Do not trust blindly.

I'm beginning to recieve flaming e-mails and now I understand why.

It takes two to flame - if you don't feed it, the fire goes out.

That is a common tactic of some on most lists - but they too will soon stop, if you don't react.

I also came to a conclusion this evening. I'm not trying to troll or anything, but this will probably be my last post to this forum. My last post to ARS will soon follow. Sitting around just posting about Scientology isn't going to do anything. If there's anything I can't stand it's "not getting to the point" and "BSing." Much like my dad in the latter essence.

Sounds like you've got better things to do with your time right now.

Like college. One can also "do" Scn - the tech is free, and once the founder stated just that: The tech is free - keep it so.

I'd like to see how you are doing, so keep in touch, if so inclined.

Best wishes to you!

 

[tarbaby]

- Who, what, and where is God?- Worship God? Doesn't he have a big enough ego? - What's the REAL point of worship, And WHY should I WANT to worship God? - How does God talk to people? How do you know it is God? - What am I supposed to believe about God? Why? How do I know it's true?

I would have taken a shot at answering these questions, but since the young man is leaving, I think it's best to wait until he is going to be around to read my responses.

Dennis

 

[freet43]

I still believe that Scientology works

OK??? but you continue to committ the High Crime of failing to disavow and disconnect from a declared SP. i.e. ME. Either that is one part of Scientology that you have rejected or ...... ???

There are many that have been declared SP by the current regime. This is part of the CO$ not Scn.

One can still "do Scn" or not, or associate with whoever one wishes to, outside the control of the CO$.

Steve - don't "trust" critics. Don't "trust" your professors. Don't trust the "minister". "Trust" is something very limited and specific. When you deposit money ina bank you trust the bank NOT to engage in identitiy theft or steal your money. You "trust" your teacher to truly be taching Plato when he says he is teaching Plato and that it is not really Nietche that he is misleading you with. BE AWARE AND CONSCIOUS OF WHO YOU TRUST.

Excellent point. And, especially given that Steve is a college student. Most professors teach what they believe - or they wouldnt be teaching it...LOL

Undoubtedly some on this site may be upset with me for having scared you away... but that is the risk of engaging in dialog.

IMO, I don't see that he was scared away, or that you were the one doing the scaring.

Hopefully Steve can clarify.

Sounds to me like he accomplished what he came here for, and is on to better things.

(not that I'm saying this forum is not a good thing - but sometimes one needs to get on with it, rather than discuss it).

 

[neiljung]

I was raised in Christianity with the thought that there was no other lifestyle. It was a very cultic atmosphere.

There's a recent documentary I watched called Jesus Camp (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/) that deals with the current state of christianity in America. It doesn't take sides, but just seeing what is going on and the scale it is happening on is a wake up call. Recommended viewing.



Anyway, here are the questions:

- Who, what, and where is God?
- Worship God? Doesn't he have a big enough ego?
- What's the REAL point of worship, and WHY should I WANT to worship God?
- How does God talk to people? How do you know it is God?
- What am I supposed to believe about God? Why? How do I know it's true?

Have you asked yourself first why you are asking these questions and why nobody can give you a real answer to any of them?

In my opinion most, if not all of your questions are flawed by being based on a faulty first principle. You are assuming that there is a god in the first place, and seem to be basing your questions very much around the preconcieved ideas that you have been fed about this alleged deity.

Most religions do this and it is the most basic trap around. Why start your search from a postulate at all? There's only one place such a search can lead and that is to varying levels of delusion and strange beliefs.

It doesn't help that the nature of reality simply cannot be discussed sensibly or narrated by words. Besides actually living life and accepting the whole of the experience, the best we can do is allude to the unknowable with abstracts. Any attempt to describe the nature of the universe immediately and conclusively moves us farther away from what we are attemping to connect to.

What do we really know? I say we know only one thing and that is the first principle, the start and end of any quest for enlightenment. We are awareness. Any postulate from that basic point must by it's very nature be questionable as we are now making interpretations of what we are aware of. As soon as we move from pure awareness into "making sense" of our perceptions we have embarked upon a game of sorts and stepped into the paradoxical trap that holds all living beings.

If "god" is anything (and god is a much mangled word that should not really be applied here due to the weighty, variable and contradictory connotations) it is that state of pure awareness. Outside of that state of awareness we are not able to really concieve of such a state other than as a vague concept that is at best a map, not the territory.

Essentially I find your questions meaningless as they are being projected from, at best, unsafe assumptions. You said yourself that nobody you asked could give you meaningful or satisfactory answers to those questions, or even come up with a semi-plausible weave of words that sounded good to pacify you.

Ask yourself why that is before you ask those questions.

Like I said, it is next to impossible to talk about the nature of existance and come off as anything but a raving madman, or at best a wishy washy mystic. It's good for a laugh though.

Best wishes to you and enjoy your exploration and personal journey through this strange persistant dream we call life.

 

[svonhatten]

Ok... I looked. I was curious as to what responses I would get. I have some time to kill until 10AM, so here we go:

Steve -

Thank you for this response. It sounds like your plan may be wise. Following are a few more thoughts.

Thank you.

This is primarily a "place" for ex-scientologists (or I should say ex-COS-scientologists).

Agreed.

Well --I don't think YOU were "harsh" and I don't know what you are refering to being "misinformed" about. My frustration came through because I have been curious as to what your thoughts were regarding the questions I had raised in my earlier posts? I wondered whether you you were returning to the COS or getting more active in the Freezone or like Tarbaby and myself and others "washing our hands" of Hubbard while still analyzing where our journeys had taken us, what we had learned and what we could pass on to others.

Why didn't you just ask me? At this point, with what I know, I'll never be going back to the Church of Scientology.

Regardless of who said it, I agree with it. But "seeking God" is very loaded. I would interpret "seeking God" as seeking a Unity of Truth. Love, and Beauty.

Ok...

OK??? but you continue to committ the High Crime of failing to disavow and disconnect from a declared SP. i.e. ME. Either that is one part of Scientology that you have rejected or ...... ???

I don't care who the Orgs think are SP's. I don't consider many of you folks to be SP's. Because I didn't spend much time in Scientology, I never really "shut down" completely. I can still think critically for myself.

OK... so you, like Claire (Fluffy) are a Freezone Scientologist?? I can go acccept that. I have had very limited "engagement" with Claire, but admire her fesityness even if I don't quite follow all of her logic. She is very clear about where she stands!

I've heard things about Freezone in general. Some good, some bad. I'm not really a "Freezoner." I'm a Scientologist who is independent of ANY organization whatsoever.

"Cultic" is a very loaded word that has come to mean some form of "destructive (to the individual) thought limiting, manipulative organization."
Does this means that you have truly left the COS???? Have you publicly resigned? Not that you have to, but I am just not clear where you, Steve, are in relationship to the COS.

Well, I still get mailings and stuff from my original Org, and I still have Scientologist friends. However, until they answer all my questions logically, I will never be going back. I sent an e-mail to them when I first found ARS. I also sent one when SP Dec Reason #6 clicked.

I don't understand the "pretty much left the COS". Sounds like some lingering doubts that should be resolved.

I do have doubts. I have doubts about everything now. And why shouldn't I? I have had good relationships with people in the Church of Scientology. I'm not going to completely discount them. Although, it is the organization that I'm upset at; mainly on the policy of disconnection.

I don't play the game of "who is OSA?" because very frankly, I don;t give a damn. Over the years I have taken many phone calls from "exiting Scientologists" or at least people who claim to be. Sometimes they will ask whether I am OSA. I answer it thus: "No, I am not. But there is no way to prove that. An OSA undercober operative (as with any "undercover agent" must be a good liar. I did some undercover work for the Guardians Office in the late 70s. So... I don't really care if someone is lying to me regarding their religious affiliation. If they are lying then shame on them. We are not committing any crime by discussing religion and philosophy and even politics.... at least not here in the U.S.A.

Well, I know you aren't OSA for sure. You've got too much depth to your replies.

Steve - don't "trust" critics. Don't "trust" your professors. Don't trust the "minister". "Trust" is something very limited and specific. When you deposit money ina bank you trust the bank NOT to engage in identitiy theft or steal your money. You "trust" your teacher to truly be taching Plato when he says he is teaching Plato and that it is not really Nietche that he is misleading you with. BE AWARE AND CONSCIOUS OF WHO YOU TRUST.

Thank you for the advice.

Hubbard, tells us point blank the limits of the trust we can place in him and his organizations. "We will never betray your trust in us SO LONG AS YOU ARE ONE OF US." I no longer put my trust in a person or organization that holds that philosophy. I am baffled by the fact that I did for so long. That statement was always there in plain site in The Aims of Scn , but I never really stopped to think about what it meant and that it truly is what is practiced!

Maybe this has clicked, maybe it hasn't. I'm not real sure. However, I still consider myself a Scientologist, as I stated previously. I think some things that Hubbard said could qualify him as a nut, but that doesn't spoil my wins.

I hope you don't classify anything I have said as "flaming" - but I must admit some frustration at your unwillingness to respond to my earlier e-mails. That, of course, is your right, but when questions are asked from a depth of sincerity and they are answered in kind and the only response is "silence" then I wonder to whom I am speaking.

Like I said, midterms were this past week and I was spending WAAAAY too much time on these forums. Both ARS and ex-scn.

That may not be a bad idea. If what you want to do is "engage" in true "DIALOG" .... true "TWO WAY COMMUNICATION" then I would welcome you to stay and engage. If what you want to do is just engage in Hubbard's form of "two way comm" which is really "one way interrogation" and (let's be honest Steve) with me at least that is all it has been then it does get very frustrating. You will draw only "flames" or silence.

I'm not leaving because someone made me angry or upset. I probably should have said... "taking a break."

Well my real location is right down the road in Simi Valley. If you ever want to have a cup of coffee and chat face-to-face I 'd be glad to meet you.

Sure! Just as long as you promise you aren't some cereal rapist. hahaha! (and yes I know I used the wrong "serial." )

With all due respect .. it will find its own way around. I am not really that much into the ARS scene.

Probably a good thing.

I don't know who that is. Again, I don't really follow ARS much. Too much "noise".

I would agree.

We all get to choose our sources of inspiration.

This is certainly true.

Advice I would give to any 18 year old person is to pursue their college education. Think critically. Engage in debate, discussion, and dialog especially with those who look at the world differently. It will helo you form your own world view and not just adopt someone elses. Print out a copy of Carl Sagan's "Baloney Detection Kit" (it's only one page and will help immensely.)

Done.

Do check back in as time allows.... You may also get some interesting responses on the GOD issues that you raise. Undoubtedly some on this site may be upset with me for having scared you away... but that is the risk of engaging in dialog.

You did not scare me away. No one can scare me away from anything. If they try, they're screwed because I'm just going to do what I'm not supposed to do even more. Unless it's stupid... like telling me not to jump off of a bridge or something. Things like... telling me to get off the forums.. well... I pay attention to what they say, but I don't heed their advice.

Do well in your studies.....

Thank you. I have Soc 101 today, so I will be learning more about how society control who we are, and how we affect society. Fun stuff... 'till you get to Karl Marx. Then it's just plain conflict.

-Steve

 

[popsweetland]

I would have taken a shot at answering these questions, but since the young man is leaving, I think it's best to wait until he is going to be around to read my responses.

Dennis

Dennis - I would encourage you to go ahead and "take a shot at answering" some of Steve's questions. Possibly he will be lurking and there are or will be other young (and not-so-young) "Steves", who can benefit from your perspective, regardless if they agree or not with what you have to say.

There is also the "residual young Steve" in all of us old farts who wrestled with these issues in our youth and continue to wrestle with them to this day, unless, of course one is a fanatic fundamantalist in which case all doubt and questions are gone in the "certainty" that _________________ (fill in the blank with guru or savior of choice) will solve all of your problems and those of the world provided you adhere to _________________ teachings and do not doubt or question or discuss or debate. -- Dave

 

[tarbaby]

Dennis - I would encourage you to go ahead and "take a shot at answering" some of Steve's questions.

If I do, since Steve bugged out, it will be over on the "about god" thread. I responded to neil's post from this thread over there too.

Dennis

 

[popsweetland]

Ok... I looked. I was curious as to what responses I would get. I have some time to kill until 10AM, so here we go:

<snip>

Steve -

Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!!. for your wonderful detailed response.

I also want to apologize to you for not "JUST ASKING!!" as you so correctly pointed out that I should have.

I can tell by your photo and your responses that you are not the type of guy to be "scared" off from anything.

Keep that sense of humor tuned.

Maybe we can have that cup of coffee one of these days.

In the mean time, stay focused on college and relish all of the challenge and opportunity it brings. You have some formidable writing skills!!

Lock up the "cereal"!!!!http://www.forum.exscn.net/images/icons/icon7.gif
(My first "smilie".)

Best regards -

Popsweetland

 

[popsweetland]

Ok... I looked. I was curious as to what responses I would get. I have some time to kill until 10AM, so here we go:

<snip>

Steve -

Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!!. for your wonderful detailed response.

I also want to apologize to you for not "JUST ASKING!!" as you so correctly pointed out that I should have.

I can tell by your photo and your responses that you are not the type of guy to be "scared" off from anything.

Keep that sense of humor tuned.

Maybe we can have that cup of coffee one of these days.

In the mean time, stay focused on college and relish all of the challenge and opportunity it brings. You have some formidable writing skills!!

Lock up the "cereal"!!!! http://www.forum.exscn.net/images/icons/icon7.gif
(My first "smilie".)

Best regards -

Popsweetland

 

[svonhatten]

Life Changing Day

Ok, so today I feel like a real heavy load just fell off. Everything just fell into place today.

A large part of who I am involves Mormonism. I was raised Christian (as I previously stated) but my background is Mormonism. I realized today that no matter what I tried to be (Scientologist, Protestant, etc.), I was always going to be a Mormon. You know what I mean?

The answer is so plain and simple, yet I didn't heed it. I thought it was more complicated than this. I realize it more than ever now. Kudos to my Soc professor on this one. I wish I came to this conclusion sooner.

In my opinion most, if not all of your questions are flawed by being based on a faulty first principle. You are assuming that there is a god in the first place, and seem to be basing your questions very much around the preconcieved ideas that you have been fed about this alleged deity.

I received the following response about the existence of God:

"If God does not exist, then the universe had to have been created by chance. "But chance is no thing. It has no weight, no measurements, no power. It is merely a word we use to describe mathematical possiblities. It can do nothing. It can do nothing because it is nothing. To say that the universe was created by chance is to say that it came from nothing. That is intellectual madness. What are the chances that the universe was created by chance?" (The Holiness of God RC Sproul) There is no chance. Claiming that the universe was created by chance is like saying there's a chance that I could grow a tree out of each of my fingers. This is absurd."

I know that God exists because of this. While you may not, that is okay. I just find it hard not to believe in a higher diety.

-Steve

 

[Dulloldfart]

- Worship God? Doesn't he have a big enough ego?
- What's the REAL point of worship, and WHY should I WANT to worship God?

Are you familiar with the works of Sitchin, Steve? I have a quote here, bottom of the page, saying "worship" is actually a mistranslation, and a correct translation would be "work [for]":
http://books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595127495&page=248

The quote is from a tremendously interesting book by Lloyd Pye. You can read the whole thing online if you wish.

I am not commenting on what a Scientologist would refer to as the eighth dynamic. But Sitchin, and Pye, have a different take on what the Bible says than the norm. It makes more sense to me than the traditional view. I couldn't see why an omnipotent being would require being worshipped either, but I can understand how a being, one of many gods with a small "g", would require work in the situation Sitchin and Pye describe.



Paul

 

[neiljung]

I received the following response about the existence of God:

"If God does not exist, then the universe had to have been created by chance.

Immediately we are confronted with faulty first principle in action. That statement is nothing more than conjecture and assumption. It is an assertion that has no validity other than as a subjective idea.

Note that I'm not offering an alternative explanation for how the universe came into existance. My sole assertion is that we are percieving beings and as soon as we begin to percieve we start making shit up and believing it.

There is awareness and we are part of that awareness. That's as much as we can really be sure of. To me that is the bottom line and anything else is nothing more than degrees of speculation.

The postulation of a divine being creator seperate from us is a man made construct. The best we can say with confidence is that there is something. (If you want to call that something "god" then fine, though I think that doing so invites confusion.) Moving away from that simplicity leads to the confusion and contradiction that is apparent in all deist religions and the conflict that they have with each other. It's a total dead end.

It's part of our human condition that we can only have limited understanding of what we are. If we were fully aware of the true nature of the universe it would cease to exist for us and we would once again be pure awareness. (note that I have drifted somewhat into speculation myself there, but I'm aware of it, and that such things cannot be sensibly talked about.)

Again, this is difficult to talk about without sounding insane. We do not have the mechanisms at hand to fully cognate existance and continue as human awarenesses as we know it.

"But chance is no thing. It has no weight, no measurements, no power. It is merely a word we use to describe mathematical possiblities. It can do nothing. It can do nothing because it is nothing. To say that the universe was created by chance is to say that it came from nothing. That is intellectual madness. What are the chances that the universe was created by chance?" (The Holiness of God RC Sproul) There is no chance. Claiming that the universe was created by chance is like saying there's a chance that I could grow a tree out of each of my fingers. This is absurd."

To me that is just another string or meaningless assertions flat out leaps of logic and faulty assumptions. One sentence to another it makes no logical sense though it has the pretence of logic, as in "If A then B is true". It's not allowing for the idea of...well, what if not A? What if we are only dealing with a load of self-referetial human concepts that have no validity outside the human experience?

The more I read that paragraph the more flaws I see in it. It's a fantastical concoction of faulty logic and flat out double-think. The problem, if you indeed see it as a problem, is that such is the nature of our reality and the root of how we are able to be in the state that we are as human beings. Our very existance depends on such paradox.

I know that God exists because of this. While you may not, that is okay. I just find it hard not to believe in a higher diety.

-Steve

Like I'm trying to say. All we can be sure of is that there is something. As soon as we start speculating on what that is and attributing the like of human characteristics to postulated deitys we are moving ourselves farther from the simple direct knowledge of that something.

It's in our nature to interperate, catalogue and create maps of reality. In doing so, we can however be aware that we are doing so. If you want to use god, christianity or scientology as one of your maps don't let anyone tell you not to. Pick a path or a variety of paths that feel right to you in your heart. I guess the important thing is to have fun with it and enjoy the life that you have if you can.

 

[svonhatten]

Like I'm trying to say. All we can be sure of is that there is something. As soon as we start speculating on what that is and attributing the like of human characteristics to postulated deitys we are moving ourselves farther from the simple direct knowledge of that something.

It's in our nature to interperate, catalogue and create maps of reality. In doing so, we can however be aware that we are doing so. If you want to use god, christianity or scientology as one of your maps don't let anyone tell you not to. Pick a path or a variety of paths that feel right to you in your heart. I guess the important thing is to have fun with it and enjoy the life that you have if you can.

You bring up some interesting points as far as the logic goes, but part of the reason I believe in God also has to do with what I was surrounded with growing up. Mainly, Protestant Churches (Wesleyian) and the Latter-day Church of Christ (Kingston).

I've never been great at logic, but it made sense to me. If there is another viewpoint on how everything came about other than chance (besides God) then I'll give it some thought. Otherwise... I have no choice but to be who I have been all along. I just masked it from myself and those around me.

I liked your idea about picking the path that's right for each of us. If we were to sit around and believe only the things that we know for sure... well, some would find that alright, but not me. That's really difficult for me. I can only do that for so long before my thoughts finally cave on themselves.

I have concluded for myself, that religion is both something logical and emotional. It can't be either or the other. I have seen and demonstrated logic with Mormonism and I have a strong emotional connection as well.

Have you (or anyone else reading this) heard of the "God gene?" It's very interesting. Supposedly, we are all yearning for a higher power. Some may find it with different religions.

Other than that, I think you are a very self-aware individual. I look forward to more of your posts about this sort of thing.

I don't think I'm taking a very good break. Hahahaha!

-Steve

 

[svonhatten]

Are you familiar with the works of Sitchin, Steve? I have a quote here, bottom of the page, saying "worship" is actually a mistranslation, and a correct translation would be "work [for]":
http://books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595127495&page=248

The quote is from a tremendously interesting book by Lloyd Pye. You can read the whole thing online if you wish.

I am not commenting on what a Scientologist would refer to as the eighth dynamic. But Sitchin, and Pye, have a different take on what the Bible says than the norm. It makes more sense to me than the traditional view. I couldn't see why an omnipotent being would require being worshipped either, but I can understand how a being, one of many gods with a small "g", would require work in the situation Sitchin and Pye describe.



Paul

Yes that is a good explaination. I'll add it to my list of answered questions. Who wrote this though? Sounds like the script to something like Stargate SG-1 or something...

-Steve

 

[lionheart]

<snips> I've heard things about Freezone in general. Some good, some bad. I'm not really a "Freezoner." I'm a Scientologist who is independent of ANY organization whatsoever.

Maybe this has clicked, maybe it hasn't. I'm not real sure. However, I still consider myself a Scientologist, as I stated previously. I think some things that Hubbard said could qualify him as a nut, but that doesn't spoil my wins.

You did not scare me away. No one can scare me away from anything. If they try, they're screwed because I'm just going to do what I'm not supposed to do even more. Unless it's stupid... like telling me not to jump off of a bridge or something. Things like... telling me to get off the forums.. well... I pay attention to what they say, but I don't heed their advice.

<endsnips>

-Steve

Well done Steve. I don't call myself a Scientologist anymore and I don't do any Scn anymore and don't do FZ stuff. But neither do I deny my wins from Scn.

Continue to be your own man, Steve!

Hubbard used to advise that nobody can say what is true for you except yourself and then used to try to persuade everyone about what was true! Bit of a flaw in his personality, but originally good advice nevertheless.

 

[Emma]

Try telling a trained Supervisor that "It's just not true for me" and see if you get away with it.....noooooo