SP Times Round 2 - Moar speaking out!

knn

Patron Meritorious
Read the excerpt from the August 1938 "Skipper letter" (written just after the writing of 'Excalibur') where he described his "real goal."

Read his 1946/47 'Affirmations'.
All prior Dianetics. Doesn't convince me a bit. Moreover the Admissions and the Skipper letter are pretty convincing that self-hypnosis WORKS.

Read his bizarre letters to the FBI from the early 1950s.

Ron was "messed up" from day one. He had a long term self aggrandizing hidden agenda. Deal with it.
Exactly. That's why I wrote "started to seriously shift into Darkness Land". He may have had long term issues before, but from the mid-60ies he couldn't control/handle them anymore.
 

Div6

Crusader
I wouldn't call it sham, but it's worthless when you want to claim any rights in an org.


Miscavige doesn't lie about the stats. The stats are true. But he zooms in everytime. Obviously this trick is so successful that it still works after 20 years despite empty orgs:
http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=223098#post223098

Riiiiiight. He just tells "acceptable truths".

"Straight up and vertical!" But with no scale and no other context, it is just a meaningless exercise in "PR". Why not just tell the truth?
 

thetaCannon

Patron
Yes, probably around that time Hubbard started to seriously shift into Darkness Land. Sea Org, Body Thetans, Ethics stem all from that time. Shows probably how GPM processing can mess you up.

I agree with this, but then I think about the Key to Life course and how huge and crystal-clear it is, and that came much later. I struggle to reconcile that some of the work is so bizarre (eg, RJ67) and yet other parts are so cogent?

Hubbard critics rarely talk about Key to Life but it's arguably one of his best ever works, and it didn't arrive on the scene until the seventies...
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Hubbard critics rarely talk about Key to Life but it's arguably one of his best ever works, and it didn't arrive on the scene until the seventies...
Also Purif is one of his better works. And it arrived late, too. And let's not forget that you need to have good mental capacities to write books like "Mission Earth".

HOWEVER: Note that Key to Life, Purif and Mission Earth had less and less to do with typical Scientology (= new auditing processes). LRH stayed away more and more from auditing.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Back to the topic to hand:

Scientologists "say they're the experts in organizational technology. ...Well, then how come you need to have that level of threat and duress to get people to do what you want them to do?" (August 1, 2009) - Jeff Hawkins

http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/project/hawkins.shtml

Because, the "reactive mind" is such a huge terrible beast, and the wog world is so incredibly degraded and out ethics. A force greater than those two together is necessary to keep the "sincere" members on the straight-and-narrow. Thus, the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics requires "threats of ethics and justice" so that true spiritual gains can be made.

You say that doesn't sense? It apparantely DOES make some sort of sense to many active Scientology members!:omg:

Scary stuff, the nonsense that people will believe and "think with".
 
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Div6

Crusader
Because, the "reactive mind" is such a huge terrible beast, and the wog world is so incredibly degraded and out ethics. A force greater than those two together is necessary to keep the "sincere" members on the straight-and-narrow. Thus, the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics requires "threats of ethics and justice" so that true spiritual gains can be made.

You say that doesn't sense? It apparantely DOES make some sort of sense to many active Scientology members!:omg:

But if "man is basically good" as is posited by this self-proclaimed religion, then shouldn't they just let the natural goodness shine on through?
 

Gadfly

Crusader
But if "man is basically good" as is posited by this self-proclaimed religion, then shouldn't they just let the natural goodness shine on through?

That is the problem according to MANY philosophies. Man's "goodness" (naturalness, purity, holiness) is apparently covered up with "shit". The "shit" needs to be removed to allow the "goodness" to appear unhindered.

That idea exists in Christianity as the "devil" and "evil" (desires for evil) covering up the "soul". Probably a similiar idea exists in Islam, since they have a common religious heritage. The idea of "original sin" in Christianity also prevents the "goodness" from shining through. It is just another one of them "bad things" that some priest, minister or Church leader can use to control you into getting all worked up about.

Eastern philosophies called it "ego" or "Karma" - the "bad" thing that covered up the inherent "goodness" residing underneath. Luckily, eastern philosophies lacked the evangelizing spirit of them devout Christians and Muslims. Hubbard used to brag how he combined the knowledge of the East with the "desire to achieve and arrive" of the West. To me what he did was wrapped up some legitimate eastern ideas into a western commercialized bundle, and packaged and sold it - modern spiritual merchandizing.

Scientology was not very dissimilar from many other religions in having this idea that the "soul" is fundamentally "good", and that various factors prevent and inhibit this "goodness" from manifesting.

Though, as with every religion I have ever looked at, and many ideologies and philosophies too, logic does not apply! You question assumes an existing "chain of rational logic". THAT does not generally exist in religions. They ALL reach a point where FAITH of some sort is necessary. At some point one has no choice, if you want to be any type of "believer", to let go of all rational throught and just ACCEPT and ADOPT some set or framework of unexperienced "beliefs". You come to believe in unrealized ideals, and unverifiable and unknown states of existence.

Another point is that most religions, including Scientology, haven't been notoriously well-know for consistency and rationality.

What makes Scientology so unique is the INTENSITY factor. Every aspect of it is ratcheted up to 1000%. TOTAL dedication, TOTAL committment. TOTAL involvement. TOTALLY on-board with the team - Clearing the Planet. This "looney" factor, indoctrinated into the heads of all members repeatedly, is VERY much turned up about as high as it can go without the Church of Scientology suffering complete rejection by ANY modern society. Hopefully, that rejection comes sooner than later.:thumbsup:
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
What makes Scientology so unique is the INTENSITY factor.
This is not true. Many religions are intense. Just remember how Spanish Christians cleared a whole continent.

The eMeter makes Scientology unique.
 
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knn

Patron Meritorious
There's an LRH ref, BC tape, where He suggested that if a pc weren't going to give up the withhold you bring a gorilla type into the session room for support -- a gang of two so to speak. Gang bang sec checks must have originated from this.
Do you mean this...
Now, I call to your attention that a pc never refuses to talk to the auditor. He never refuses to give up the withhold. But he often doesn't know what it is. And it's the auditor's job to get him to look. And I don't care how harsh an auditor has to be to get a pc to look
Prepclearing, SHSBC 13FEB62
or this...
Now, this is peculiar: There is a difference between an auditing cycle and a military communication cycle. "Theirs is not to question why; theirs is but to do and die" is definitely the military attitude toward the whole thing. And whereas this, too, can get into auditing - and actually is not disallowed and is sometimes used, and not without benefit. The guy is not going to touch that wall. "Thou shalt touch that wall," you see? This kind of an action very often takes place. He's not going to give up the withhold. "Well, you goddamn well are going to give up the withhold," you know? Bow! see? That sort of thing is very often better than not doing anything about it. There are more adroit ways to do it - but this is real crude auditing. But that's the only time it gets over into the military cycle.

Comm Cycle in Auditing, SHSBC 25JUL63​
 

Gadfly

Crusader
This is not true. Many religions are intense. Just remember how Spanish Christians cleared a whole continent.

The eMeter makes Scientology unique.

I am talking about TODAY, in PT, circa 2009.

Of course, we can go into the past and find many version of severity and atrocities committed in the name of some religion. The Spanish Inquisition was despicable.

And, it IS TRUE, that the uncompromising, intense indoctrination system of Scientology is second to none. Hubbard was and remains a model for manipulators and control freaks of all sorts.
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Do you mean this...
Now, I call to your attention that a pc never refuses to talk to the auditor. He never refuses to give up the withhold. But he often doesn't know what it is. And it's the auditor's job to get him to look. And I don't care how harsh an auditor has to be to get a pc to look
Prepclearing, SHSBC 13FEB62
or this...
Now, this is peculiar: There is a difference between an auditing cycle and a military communication cycle. "Theirs is not to question why; theirs is but to do and die" is definitely the military attitude toward the whole thing. And whereas this, too, can get into auditing - and actually is not disallowed and is sometimes used, and not without benefit. The guy is not going to touch that wall. "Thou shalt touch that wall," you see? This kind of an action very often takes place. He's not going to give up the withhold. "Well, you goddamn well are going to give up the withhold," you know? Bow! see? That sort of thing is very often better than not doing anything about it. There are more adroit ways to do it - but this is real crude auditing. But that's the only time it gets over into the military cycle.

Comm Cycle in Auditing, SHSBC 25JUL63​


No, but thank you for the effort. :)
 
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