SP Times Round 2 - Moar speaking out!

knn

Patron Meritorious
It is mere PR, and - amazingly - while that might elicit a dismissive response from a faithful Scientologist, it has a way sinking in over time, especially since most Scientologists - on some level - already know that it's a true statement.
...
The G.O. was never "dismantled." It was renamed O.S.A.
But you see, it's getting more and more extreme what someone would have to claim to an active Scientologist:
  • "Hubbard didn't mean what he wrote"
  • "Fair Game was never cancelled"
  • "GO was never dismantled".
It's doubtful that a normal current Scientologist has ever heard of "GO" or of "Fair Game":
"What the heck is GO? What the heck is Fair Game? You are claiming that they were never abolished yet I have never heard of wearing grey rags".

You would have completely lost credibility by then.

The Fair Game Law was "cancelled" in name only. The "handling" of "SPs," as specified by Hubbard, was not "cancelled."
It is facto cancelled because it's nowhere to be found in an org and noone has to wear rags.

That the Church viciously attacks its outspoken "enemies" is not "Fair Game" but "vicious attacks against enemies". Whatever they base the viciousness on, it's not the Fair Game policy.

http://www.wiseoldgoat.com/papers-scientology/hubbard_policy-letter_history_fair-game.html
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Let us not forget this little fluff piece:

"That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others."
Free speech is limited in every country of the world. The US has pretty good free speech attitudes, yet pornography, lies, harassments and disruptive speeches are forbidden/restricted nevertheless.
 
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Veda

Sponsor
Google is every one's friend, even Scientologists, unless they're behind a barbed wire fence or locked in a room (and probably not wearing a 'grey rag'.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)

By the way, I never mentioned anything about 'grey rags', etc.

You write, "[Fair Game] is facto cancelled because it is no where to be found in an Org, and none have to wear rags." Are there "SPs" wandering around in Orgs? Not usually. "Rags?" I never mentioned "rags."

Hubbard's words aren't going away, and the Internet is here to stay.

People who are reading ESMB know about these things. Or soon will. Do you?
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
Google is every one's friend, even Scientologists, unless they're behind a barbed wire fence or locked in a room (and probably not wearing a 'grey rag'.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology)
"Oh, now I even have to look up Wikipedia for some ancient court cases?"

Harassing of outspoken critics is not Fair Game. Harassing of outspoken critics is trying to silence outpoken critics. Has nothing to do with an Ethics Condition.

By the way, I never mentioned anything about 'grey rags', etc.
BECAUSE THE HCOPL which introduced "dirty grey rags" and "Fair Game" IS CANCELLED. It was the same HCOPL. It's CANCELLED. Stop beating a dead horse. No normal Scientologist has ever heard of Fair Game or dirty grey rags.

Are there "SPs" wandering around in Orgs? Not usually. "Rags?" I never mentioned "rags."
The grey rags are for people in Liability. Liability is a rather normal/frequent Ethics condition, and yet you won't see anyone with rags. BECAUSE THE POLICY IS CANCELLED.
 

Zinjifar

Silver Meritorious Sponsor
Harassing of outspoken critics is not Fair Game. Harassing of outspoken critics is trying to silence outpoken critics. Has nothing to do with an Ethics Condition.

'Fair Game' was never an 'Ethics Condition'; it's one part of the *handling* of an ethics condition, however that handling can and was and still *is* applied to numerous activities by the 'Church'.

Similarly, a 'dirty grey rag' was one handling for an Ethics Condition, but, you can also use a dirty grey rag to wipe off a counter-top.

And, the dirty grey rag and mentioning of the *term* Fair Game were canceled because they were seen as out-PR, although the *activity* formerly called Fair Game not only continues, but is specifically mandated to continue in the very order that canceled the use of the *term*.

Zinj
 

Div6

Crusader
Free speech is limited in every country of the world. The US has pretty good free speech attitudes, yet pornography, lies, harassments and disruptive speeches are forbidden/restricted nevertheless.

You missed the point. You are NOT allowed to talk freely in the CoS, to think freely, to exercise your rights as a citizen. Just go ask DM how many times he hit Rinder, and see what happens.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Knn posted a link to a Michel Snoeck site. Isn't Michel Snoeck the Scientology cult apologist known as 'Roadrunner'?
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
And, the dirty grey rag and mentioning of the *term* Fair Game were canceled because they were seen as out-PR, although the *activity* formerly called Fair Game not only continues, but is specifically mandated to continue in the very order that canceled the use of the *term*
The Ethics condition "Liability" and the Ethics Condition "Enemy" still exist of course. But Rag'ing isn't applied anymore and Fair Gaming isn't either.

Yes, you can say to a current Scientologist that "outspoken critics are harassed". This _IS_ believable. But to state "What is Greatness is a PR stunt because the Fair Game HCOPL was never cancelled" is not only completely unreal but it's also WRONG.

Thus again: I wouldn't argue by quoting something. Or by trying to interpret what LRH wrote. Instead refer them to FOOTBULLETS (Youtube, e.g. Bunker) or Court Affidavits or the ex-Execs interviews (Ruthbun etc).
 

Div6

Crusader
'Fair Game' was never an 'Ethics Condition'; it's one part of the *handling* of an ethics condition, however that handling can and was and still *is* applied to numerous activities by the 'Church'.

Similarly, a 'dirty grey rag' was one handling for an Ethics Condition, but, you can also use a dirty grey rag to wipe off a counter-top.

And, the dirty grey rag and mentioning of the *term* Fair Game were canceled because they were seen as out-PR, although the *activity* formerly called Fair Game not only continues, but is specifically mandated to continue in the very order that canceled the use of the *term*.

Zinj


Well, historically, Fair Game was part of the formula for an "Ethics condition".
See http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/sp/pl-1967-10-18-penalties-for-lower-conds.html

" PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS
(Applies both Orgs and Sea Org)


LIABILITY — Suspension of Pay and a dirty grey rag on left arm and day and night confinement to org premises.
TREASON — Suspension of pay and deprivation of all uniforms and insignia, a black mark on left cheek and confinement on org premises or dismissal from post and debarment from premises.
DOUBT — Debarment from premises. Not to be employed. Payment of fine amounting to any sum may have cost org. Not to be trained or processed. Not to be communicated or argued with.
ENEMY — SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."

Notice that in this early iteration of "lower conditions" that there was no "formula" by which one could "work out" of the condition. If you were an enemy, then that was it.

The PL that canceled the use of the phrase "Fair Game" did not cancel the the penalties for Lower Conditions. See http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/sp/pl-1968-10-21-cancel-fair-game.html
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
You missed the point. You are NOT allowed to talk freely in the CoS, to think freely, to exercise your rights as a citizen. Just go ask DM how many times he hit Rinder, and see what happens.
Rinder WAS allowed to talk freely, but he had to bear the consequences.

Every freedom is restricted by penalties. Thus any positive statement ("a citizen is free") is worthless when you don't also know the exceptions (murder, theft etc).

Just like in the USA: Free speech yes, pornography restricted. Or did you think that LRH allowed pornography in the orgs, just because he allowed to "speak freely"? Of course not, thus LRH's statement has to be read in context with his restrictions ("Free speech yes, but those who speak freely about their plan to quit they staff contract are to be punished").

Nothing special, typical for laws.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Well, historically, Fair Game was part of the formula for an "Ethics condition".
See http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/sp/pl-1967-10-18-penalties-for-lower-conds.html

" PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS
(Applies both Orgs and Sea Org)


LIABILITY — Suspension of Pay and a dirty grey rag on left arm and day and night confinement to org premises.
TREASON — Suspension of pay and deprivation of all uniforms and insignia, a black mark on left cheek and confinement on org premises or dismissal from post and debarment from premises.
DOUBT — Debarment from premises. Not to be employed. Payment of fine amounting to any sum may have cost org. Not to be trained or processed. Not to be communicated or argued with.
ENEMY — SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed."

Notice that in this early iteration of "lower conditions" that there was no "formula" by which one could "work out" of the condition. If you were an enemy, then that was it.

The PL that canceled the use of the phrase "Fair Game" did not cancel the the penalties for Lower Conditions. See http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/cult/sp/pl-1968-10-21-cancel-fair-game.html

Just for the record, the original Fair Game Law was from March 1965:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=64970&postcount=41
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
The original Fair Game Law was from March 1965
Yes, probably around that time Hubbard started to seriously shift into Darkness Land. Sea Org, Body Thetans, Ethics stem all from that time. Shows probably how GPM processing can mess you up.
 

Div6

Crusader
Rinder WAS allowed to talk freely, but he had to bear the consequences.

Every freedom is restricted by penalties. Thus any positive statement ("a citizen is free") is worthless when you don't also know the exceptions (murder, theft etc).

Just like in the USA: Free speech yes, pornography restricted. Or did you think that LRH allowed pornography in the orgs, just because he allowed to "speak freely"? Of course not, thus LRH's statement has to be read in context with his restrictions ("Free speech yes, but those who speak freely about their plan to quit they staff contract are to be punished").

Nothing special, typical for laws.

How about Shelly Miscavige?

How about open discussion of DM's suppressive characteristics?

How about true and honest reporting of actual stats?

How do you reconcile the "Creed" with the RPF?

The "Creed" is a sham document. "PR" ranks above "honesty".
 

Div6

Crusader
Yes, probably around that time Hubbard started to seriously shift into Darkness Land. Sea Org, Body Thetans, Ethics stem all from that time. Shows probably how GPM processing can mess you up.

Or maybe he was just grossly OUT-Ethics, committing overt acts in present time, and PTS as a jay bird.
 

Veda

Sponsor
Yes, probably around that time Hubbard started to seriously shift into Darkness Land. Sea Org, Body Thetans, Ethics stem all from that time. Shows probably how GPM processing can mess you up.

Oh please. Now you're switching to, "Ron went insane for our aberrations," poor poor Ron, he loved us so, and he tried so hard. Sniff sniff."

Read the excerpt from the August 1938 "Skipper letter" (written just after the writing of 'Excalibur') where he described his "real goal."

Read his 1946/47 'Affirmations'.

Read his bizarre letters to the FBI from the early 1950s.

Ron was "messed up" from day one. He had a long term self aggrandizing hidden agenda. Deal with it.
 

knn

Patron Meritorious
How about Shelly Miscavige?

How about open discussion of DM's suppressive characteristics?

How do you reconcile the "Creed" with the RPF?

The "Creed" is a sham document. "PR" ranks above "honesty".
I wouldn't call it sham, but it's worthless when you want to claim any rights in an org.

How about true and honest reporting of actual stats?
Miscavige doesn't lie about the stats. The stats are true. But he zooms in everytime. Obviously this trick is so successful that it still works after 20 years despite empty orgs:
http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=223098#post223098
 

Terril park

Sponsor
How about Shelly Miscavige?

How about open discussion of DM's suppressive characteristics?

How about true and honest reporting of actual stats?

How do you reconcile the "Creed" with the RPF?

The "Creed" is a sham document. "PR" ranks above "honesty".

I've always been inclined to think he meant what he said in the Creed,
it dates from 1954. However the references to God are atypical.

For anyone still in COS one can always cite the creed over policy as
creed is defined as "fundamental belief ". Might get one into more trouble though.
 
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