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Spoilers***My Scientology Movie*** Look away now

Discussion in 'Movies, Plays, and Documentaries about Scientology' started by Emma, Sep 12, 2016.

  1. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    I think Chris's point was that it is a form of mind control, you are acknowledging Hubbard as the source of all knowledge on the subject. Whether or not you felt that way, is another matter.

    I think that Marty refusing to clap Hubbard was simply this: Marty would not acknowledge Hubbard because he felt he was a shit and was betrayed by a reprehensible con man. Marty is not an actor. An actor would applaud the Devil himself since he is only pretending to clap. Everything an actor does is pretense. But Marty was incapable of assuming the beingness of an actor. He couldn't pretend (act) to clap Hubbard. He could only be himself. It was a point of his personal ethics to not acknowledge Hubbard. So he walked out.

    Louis, saw that as filmatic gold and pushed the point, hoping for a big reaction. Which he got.

    Frankly, I think I would have passed as well. But I would have said - I'm not an actor - I have been fucked over by Hubbard, and I think I will pass on clapping him, be it fake clapping or not. I don't want my image up on the screen clapping that bastard. Let my stunt double do that. That's what he's paid for...

    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  2. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    I don't think it shows how crazy or even how evil scientology is but I can imagine non-scientologists seeing it and thinking that scientology is completely ineffective as any kind of life-enhancing system.

    Louis, who has had no scientology auditing or training, is a well-educated intelligent guy who appears unflappable in most situations whereas Marty, the former second-in-command and highly-trained auditor of celebrities appears to be easily rattled and admits he can't get friends or a proper job.

    If anyone was looking for a role model it would be Louis not Marty. So people will probably be wondering what the point of scientology is.
  3. tetloj

    tetloj Silver Meritorious Patron

    As a never in and watching in a theatre with about 400 never ins, I can assure you the crazy was well felt. The TRs - nuts! Catherine Fraser- psycho! Security guards, squirrel busters and 'documentary cameramen' - whacko!

    Andrew Perez's performance as David Miscavige - devastating (although much of the audience have only the briefest of clues who he is).

    Marty came across as a bully, thug and sore loser.

    And the audience found the whole thing ridiculous and funny.

    ETA - obviously I didn't poll the whole audience - I am going by the audible reactions of the audience at given points in the film
  4. ThetanExterior

    ThetanExterior Gold Meritorious Patron

    That's very interesting. To us ex-scientologists I don't think it even scratched the surface of how crazy it really is.
  5. PirateAndBum

    PirateAndBum Gold Meritorious Patron

    While that may be the way you feel, I don't think that Marty feels the same way about Hubs. He still feels there is good in scn. Marty wrote in his blog about his purpose for participating in the film:

    Rather than being 'triggered' by the idea of clapping, it might have been that Marty wanted to keep the 'crazy' out because it detracted from him showing the TR tech in a favorable light.

    I think Louis goofed the floof by not having an actual picture of the Hubs hanging there - it would have had even greater impact and been more 'documentaryish :)
  6. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    Did you watch Chris's review? He has a different understanding of Marty's position re: Scientology's workability that he says Marty told him. Besides, Marty AFAIK has ceased delivering auditing. That's kinda telling isn't it?

  7. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    This has been a thought-provoking thread, opening up (in Roshomon-like fashion) different views of the same documentary.

    Latest (evolving) thoughts. . .

    [Let the tl;dr speculative rant begin! lol]

    * I think it was Mimsey that posted something both funny and insightful about he'd have his stunt double do the clapping, rather than allow himself to be captured on film applauding Hubbard. That might be the real reason Rathbun performed that mini-freakout and stormed out. He might have been embarrassed and felt quite emasculated to be depicted following the "orders" of the film's director (Louis) to applaud a guru.

    After all, Rathbun views himself as a scn WARRIOR, right? And he was on record with Louis with a claim to be the cult's major "bad-ass". It occurred to me that Marty, if nothing else, always depicts himself publicly as a hard-charging, take-control, total-cause kinda guy. He's always the expert, the authority and the guy who shuts down dissent, whether in the cult as a fair game enforcer or out of the cult as a wickedly aggressive moderator of his blog--where the cyber corpses of censorship and insta-bans litter the battlefield.

    On the set, he had no power to moderate, censor, ban or dead-agent Louis, the director--so he just stormed off. But not before delivering an "acceptable truth" about why he was suddenly flipping out and bugging out. Warriors cannot very well say: "Hey I'm embarrassed, to be ordered about and told to applaud---just like weak-minded scientologists are ordered about and told to applaud. I've got to hold on to my few remaining proud warrior pennies and not waste them on being depicted as former dupe, mark and gullibly-quite-average human sycophant."

    Well, that's my current take on why he suddenly couldn't confront the reality that he was (and to some degree perhaps still is) within the dark gravitational push-n-pull of ye olde cult leader(s). He doesn't like it. Not one bit. And, I believe, what we witnessed at that moment was a LIVE REAL-TIME SHOWCASE (no script, folks!) of cognitive dissonance.

    ** Further aggravating the above conflict, Marty said he contributed perhaps a hundred hours of his time describing the philosophical and metaphysical underpinnings of the mystical world of Scientology and its technology. One might easily imagine that Marty believed he would be shown on screen (in the released movie) as a Renaissance man--intellectual, philosopher, author, free-thinker, raconteur, investigative journalist, warrior and folk hero. Just the kind of PR re-positioning and reputation-saving, phoenix-like ascension from the cult ashes that can only be admired by film viewers worldwide! Well, that didn't happen. And, I would surmise that Marty very instantly realized at the 'clapping moment' that he was just another doofus that could be told to clap on cue--just like his glorious Scn days or even his Indie days where he wrote the infamous "Ode to L. Ron Hubbard" (incredibly, still on his blog).

    *** Finally (if anyone is still reading this rant, lol) all of the above speculation lead me to yet quite another interesting view (Roshomon Rocks!). Just this--

    It occurred to me that the one documentary that has never been done on Scientology --one which I beleive is the ultimate story--is one that appears to be impossible to pull off. Unless one dedicated some years to being INSIDE scientology with some high tech recording device(s). In other words, an undercover spy to shows the real story of scientology by showing the real (behind the curtains) scientology in real life.

    What is essentially missing from every one of the documentaries and exposes is the god-awful cognitive dissonance within the minds of true-believers. And capturing the all-elusive moments where they are asked about such miracles as exteriorization, "knocking off hats", wholetrack memory, levitation and the impressive menu of paranormal powers that Clears and OTs are able to scientifically attain by traveling on a 'bridge'.

    Capturing such footage might well be a 3, 4 or 5 year project. It's never been done or even approached. Thus, filmmakers, documentarians and others have struggled madly to try to capture the core thinking of an Ideal Scientologist. They have never even gotten within 100,000 light years.

    However, much to his brilliant credit, Louis did capture "wacky Scientologist" with Marty's performance. Not a performance or re-enactment (like the brilliant actor who portrayed COB); but, a real, live capture of a Scientologist's cognitive dissonance. Marty provided that in a very real way. But, it's not the exact cognitive dissonance at Scientology's center; it's not the infantile beliefs in superpowers and saving the planet. But, it is wacky behavior. That's where the ethical and philosophical question arises. IF THE PURPOSE OF A DOCUMENTARY IS TO SHOW THE WACKY MINDSET PRODUCED UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF SCIENTOLOGY, IS IT FAIR TO PRECIPITATE OR TRIGGER WACKY BEHAVIOR AND USE THAT AS A SUBSTITUTE?

    In other words, if the audience walks out of the theater thinking "Oh my God, Scientology really is a mindfuck to be avoided at all costs!" does it matter how the film maker produced that takeaway?

    My answer is "sure why not". It's just a piece of art. If it provokes fear, rejection & ridicule of Hubbard's hoax, that would be quite helpful to the viewer or culture at large.

    That's why if you have intimately known (or studied) the true story behind virtually EVERY movie ever made about real-life events, you discover that the movie makers took massive artistic license in order to get their core theme (message) across. Because life doesn't write itself in three perfect dramatic acts, according to the conventions of story-telling and a 2-hour movie format.

    I think Louis succeeded at an extraordinary level by finding "back doors" and "tunnels" to travel the labyrinth of Scientology. You know, Scientology forbids anyone from looking (or, gasp, filming) behind the curtain, so that gives carte blanche to filmmakers and writers to tell the story another way.

    End of rant.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  8. Adam7986

    Adam7986 Declared SP

    I kind of addressed the clapping thing too in a post on Tony's blog, which I am sure you didn't see Chris. The issue I took with your defense of his reaction is that I don't think there is anything wrong with Marty's reaction to that situation when taken alone. I have been triggered quite a few times by random things.

    The trigger defense falls apart when you take it in context. Marty was reproducing one of the darkest moments in the modern history of Scientology. He looked self-assured and even smug the entire time that David Miscavige was berating the staff in front of him. Not to mention visiting int base, and getting confronted in the airport.

    Clapping at a photo of LRH is a weird place to draw the line, considering all of the other stuff that Marty agreed to. Or maybe I am weird idk.
  9. Chris Shelton

    Chris Shelton Patron with Honors

    Nah, just different takes by all of us on what we saw and what it means to us. It's not a big deal for me now. As I said in my video, I didn't get that Marty was being smug or self-assured or that he got personal satisfaction from watching Andrew Perez do what he was doing in "the Hole" so much as he was happy to see the guy doing exactly what he remembered David Miscavige doing.

    Just for the record here, though, since I've not said this anywhere else and only thought of it after I made my video, I believe 1000% that what Andrew Perez was doing, including the exact scripted lines that Marty gave him, are what David Miscavige did. I believe that because I had those exact same things said to me in the conference room in West US when I was in FOLO management over the course of 8 years. Those exact lines. I was not picked up and thrown around the way Perez threw people around in that scene, however the threat of physical punishment was always there. The disciplinary actions we were threatened with as "too gruesomes" were indeed too gruesome and we were quacking in fear over and over and over again. There was one incident where I was physically grabbed, shaken and slapped across the face by Jenny Linson in the summer of 1996. I don't think she did that randomly and I don't think that the various RTC Reps and CO's of CMO PAC just spontaneously came up with those kinds of things to yell at us out of their own heads. Not when they were on the receiving end of David Miscavige's wrath via telex, phone or in person. All that shit rolled down hill and landed directly in our lap in WUS management and we passed it on down the line.

    If I was called upon to write a script for the kinds of meetings I attended and how we were made to feel blame, shame and fear for our repeated and numerous suppressive acts and non-compliance, I could do it. I could watch someone act it out and I would probably be nodding and watching with a look somewhat similar to what is on Marty's face in the film. I watched this scene a few times and paid a lot of attention to what Marty was doing because of all the commentary here about him. That's why I put up screenshots of his face in those scenes too, in my video. So while as painful as it is for me to find myself, like I said earlier, on the same page as Marty on this and the LRH clapping thing, I have to be honest. I can only judge his actions against what I think I would have done in the same place and how I would have looked and sounded. I think anyone can read into other people's body language and facial expressions what they want and perhaps that's all I'm doing here. I'm not trying to say that I'm totally right but I am trying to present an alternate point of view to give a little perspective on this whole part of the film.

    What Louis put together with the TRs and the clapping and Hole scenes were important for people like us (obviously, we can't stop talking about it) and since we all had different experiences while we were in, I guess we'll all have different interpretations now that we are out. Maybe just talking about all this and hashing out the different viewpoints is a kind of catharsis in itself.
  10. HelluvaHoax!

    HelluvaHoax! Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on


    That's how it appears to me as well.

    But, I think the explanation lies in the fact that a scene where people are being psychologically ripped apart, screamed at and physically assaulted is still an "ACTION MOVIE". Something to be proud of, in many ways for Marty, man of action! It's why famous ultra-liberal actors who campaign against guns still star in mega-budget action films as the star. By associated themselves with intimidating others, beating the hell out of them and killing dozens with guns before the final credits roll--that's exciting! That's a "great role!" That makes the fans love them and think they are super-heroes!

    Recall for a brief moment that Marty was a superstar celebrity in Scientology. He had billions of dollars backing him. He had celebrities fawning over him. He had a worldwide network of Scientology and Wog goons, thugs and fair-gamers that would (at any cost) service his slightest whim. He was atop the elite of the elite organization that was not only saving mankind on this planet--but salvaging this sector of the Galaxy.

    He lived the life of a comic book action Superhero. Thinking he was saving the universe with his "powers" and tech.

    It's a long, long, long, long fall from that mountaintop!

    Imagine, if you will, a mega movie star getting too old to get parts and all their power, fame and money is gone. Now they live in a cheap little studio apartment in a seedy part of Hollywood. When they go to the movies, they take the bus. And when they get to Mann's Chinese Theater, they wait in line, just everyone else. They are now total average schmucks! Doesn't matter that five decades earlier they walked the red carpet at a movie premiere at that very same theater. Nobody knows them. When a part-time teenaged theater employee comes out on the street, our former movie star is told to go to the back of the line rather than lurk around the front doors. A KID telling them a mega-movie star what to do. Pathetic, right?

    Well, that's how I think Marty melted down when a wog director started telling him to "get in line" with the other clappers and give LRH a big hand! Marty, I would guess, was humiliated. He never was a clapper. He was the guy who was clapped for. He was 3 feet behind the cult, certainly not a dorky dude who could be ordered to clap.

    TRANSLATION: It's all about status and self-perception of status. That's all it's about.
  11. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    I think it did a little but needed some extra screen shots speaking from a ex scientology viewpoint. There is that scene at night at Int Management when Frazer with tone 40 tells Louie the road is closed and he must leave, all the while Louie is saying he has a permit and he just wants to have a conversation, Louie did say that, and Frazer just left w/o any real communication or conversation. It would have been really cool, if before that scene there was a snapshot of The Bridge to Total Freedom ep of grade 0, which is being able to communicate to anybody about anything, and then after that scene the same snapshot of the ep.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  12. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    as far as the clapping scene, I don't quite view it as you and others from a psychological viewpoint or a trigger viewpoint that re stimulates Marty. I only view it from the POV that Marty said that is part of the trap and I do not wish to participate. Just because Louie asked him if he felt uncomfortable and Marty walks away does not mean he was "triggered" or uncomfortable.
  13. phenomanon

    phenomanon Canyon

    The scene that I noted was Marty turning his face to the wall when Children were mentioned. It was as if he were"miming" shame. I get the feeling he laffs at those who see his involvement as "bad".
    well. That's just me. It is hard for me to keep up since I don't follow marty. I certainly don't see any remorse for what he has caused, nor do I see Marty taking any responsibility for the atrocities that were committed under his 'watch'.I see smugness and mockery.
    I see the same Marty, in or out of RTC. ( early on RTC was referred to as the "Religious Tecnology Cocksuckers"). :omg: Marty earned them that title. :p
  14. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    You have not provided any proof of your opinions. Why should I believe what you posted?

    I ask those questions from the POV if I were a lurker just coming out from scientology and researching the internet and happened to land here on this tread. If you have not followed what Marty has said, then how can you claim such things such as Marty does not feel remorse he has caused nor his lack of responsibility for the atrocities that were committed under his watch? You make these claims based on a documentary?

    If you don't follow Marty and have not read what he wrote in rebuttal, how can you give an opinion about it? That's a flunk on investigative reporting of stating facts.

    If you know of actual incidents, then do tell.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  15. Mimsey Borogrove

    Mimsey Borogrove Crusader

    [STRIKE]A funk? Or a flunk?[/STRIKE] It's been fixed - thanks Gib. But that aside, how do you know there's any truth in what Marty wrote? Lately he appears about as truthful as Hubbard, Mr. Honesty hisself.

    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  16. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    thanks, I fixed it to flunk.
  17. Gib

    Gib Crusader

    Don't know Mimsey.
  18. oneonewasaracecar

    oneonewasaracecar Gold Meritorious Patron

    I agree that you can't know what Marty is really thinking, but if you've seen a documentary and you've seen the way someone has behaved, it is fair to assert, as a matter of opinion, that Marty showed no signs of remorse.

    It is also fair to ask for evidence to support an opinion:
    - The response to the question about how it felt to hit Mark Headley: He talks only about how it hurt his hand, not how it hurt Mark or how he felt about what he had done.
    - The assertion by Jefferson Hawkins that he has not divulged all that he is "tip toeing around certain subjects"
    - There is a scene where Louis questions Marty about why he worked with Miscavige for 20 years. Marty's reply was you thought it was fun. Marty dodged the question.
    - Close to the end of the film, when Marty is being fair gamed, Louis mentions that he has used the same techniques and Marty refuses to address the issue and instead Marty walks off. The second time Louis raises the topic he walks off again and then returns swears at him and demands an apology. Marty refused to acknowledge wrongdoing.

    Stage one of remorse is acknowledgement. This documentary has provided evidence that Marty has not acknowledged wrongdoing. We see this in the dodging of questions by Louis which supports the assertion of Jefferson Hawkins and in the lack of apparent remorse in talking about the Mark Headley assault.

    We've seen other people come forward and speak with regret about what they'd done.
  19. SPsince83

    SPsince83 Gold Meritorious Patron

    Given my 33 year status as a bona fide suppressive person, as declared by the nascent Miscavidge/Rathbun administration, I feel qualified to weigh in here.

    On my first day on the board I made a negative comment about Marty and was roundly berated for it by some. At the time I wasn't aware that Marty had "seen the light " re scn and his behavior. So I stood "corrected" and granted him the benefit of the doubt. I now withdraw that grant.

    Marty Rathbun was the demented midget's number one thug. He has admitted to assault and battery on multiple occasions. He is a criminal who has never answered for his crimes. He belongs in prison. If anyone disagrees with that assessment, I hope you are never on a jury where I am a defendant.

    I do not believe a word of any recantations by any high level scientologists in the Miscavidge regime without extreme reparations. IF you stayed in 24 hrs after the mission holder's conference in a position of power in the SO, frankly, I recommend overhauling your ability to correctly assess the truth of any proposition. I'm not speaking of anyone specifically on this board, so please don't take this personally IF it seems to apply to you. For the most part everyone here has always struck me as sincere, and I accept you all for who you are individually.

    So, to reiterate, fuck the midget, and fuck Marty Rathbun. He can come find me and try his don't fuck with me bullshit and his intimidating bullyboy demeanor. I'm a convicted felon myself (for weed) and I've been to REAL prison with REAL negroes and Sinaloan gangstas and shit. Marty doesn't intimidate me. He is, in prison vernacular, what I would call a "pussy ass punk bitch". I could not possibly be more demeaning to another human.

    IF any Marty lovers are still out there, I don't give a husky fuck what you think. You are wrong. Categorically and of BIBLICAL proportions wrong. I hope you will reconsider your position. Frankly, Marty defense at this point sounds like Trumpster spin. Right out of the LRH PR playbook. Deny, deny, deny and furthermore Hillary is the devil. To paraphrase Jeff Foxworthy, if you are defending the indefensible, you MIGHT just be a fascist. Or a scientologist.
  20. JustSheila

    JustSheila Crusader

    All true, Racecar. I also was mistaken about Marty with children after '86. As mentioned on Marty's blog as well as Tony's, he intentionally distanced Nicole Kidman's children from her and encouraged them to disconnect from their mother.

    However, someone not publicly showing remorse doesn't mean they don't experience it. I knew a man who held so much guilt for his past that he was sure when he died God would destroy him utterly and completely. Inside, he hated himself so much he wanted to completely stop existing forever. Outwardly, though, he was a complete &*hole.

    Nobody actually knows what goes on in someone else's head. Public remorse is the socially correct thing to do, but not everyone does it. I have very little tolerance for Marty's tough guy routine; it has always seemed fake to me and still does. I don't know if he does it on purpose, if it is an automatic reaction, a condition or what and I don't care. Trying to figure him out is such a terrible waste of time. Those he has helped since he left are understandably easier on him. I'm far more concerned about the rifts between the various ex groups and watchers groups going on right now and think it's important not to add fuel to that. That's damage we can do something about. I'm in the 'ignore Marty and it will go away' camp.

    So as far as the movie goes, I'm not offering any interpretations or opinions about what Marty thinks. I wouldn't know.