St Hill Protest – IAS Event October 2012

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
Originally posted by Terril Park

Detailed discussion of should one blame Hubbard or DM re abuses while quite relevant here would go over the head of the broad general public. One needs lots of background knowledge to discuss such matters.

Abuse Is Abuse and in Scientology It has been consistent in abusing people since it's conception, much of which is in the writings and policy letters written by Hubbard.I can see that it would go right over your head, but I can assure you it would not go over the publics.
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
The day before the main IAS event, some of us went along to St Hill to say hello.

Being the sociable chap that he is, Martin Padfield decided to wander onto the grounds of St Hill (which is open to the public after all) and have a chat with whoever was willing to talk.

The security guard is apparently called Jordan Laveau (son of OSA CO Janet Laveau?) and although he was perfectly pleasant, did seem to be suffering from an acute case of robotitis. Instead of actually listening to what we said, he simply ‘acked’ with ‘OK’ and ‘I heard what you said’, even when it wasn’t appropriate.

I can see a TR re-tread coming up!

But the most amusing thing he let slip, was that in Miscavige’s cult of Scientology, simply talking to someone is a suppressive act!

While we know this is now, and has been the case for quite some while, to have it confirmed so blatantly by one of their own staff is rather surprising. Perhaps they have given up any pretence of being a ‘proper church’ and have adopted a “If you don’t like us, F**k off! We don’t care anymore.” stance?


http://youtu.be/m77UBAvkpek


Axiom142
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Originally posted by Terril Park



Abuse Is Abuse and in Scientology It has been consistent in abusing people since it's conception, much of which is in the writings and policy letters written by Hubbard.I can see that it would go right over your head, but I can assure you it would not go over the publics.

The buck stops with DM. Hubbard wrote in policy that any policy which is no longer usefull or forwards purpose should be junked. DM has failed to do so and in fact majored on making policy more draconian, and given the command intention that these are interpreted more savagely than by the inquisition.

An example is "Suppressive Acts" kindly updated in 1991, and the A-E
steps reworked. Specially step B. Here The original quite mild writing of letters and recompense to any individuals harmed is replaced by something very different. First step pay all debts to Scn organisations. This may include
very large Freedoader Bills which are completely unjust. Then one must
get an amends project approved by IJC "...suitable and commensurate with
the severity and extent of the SP acts committed be completed before further A-E steps are undertaken."

Note that this is making it open season to extract impossible sums of money and degrade individuals at will. One example I know consisted of
donating X number of basics to libraries, and then doing all basics courses.
At the end of this having paid out god knows how much money time etc its
written between the lines that more grovelling and donations must ensue merely to be allowed to actually DO further A-E steps.

The original SP declare was incidently a load of codswallop about someone refusing to have their human rights violated which was the "SP" act.

So here I quote 3 policies the general public wouldn't know and which you very possibly don't, and cite a real example from a friends experience which the public wouldn't know and would scarce believe if they heard the details.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Sharone,

Don't let him upset you (he knows exactly what he's doing).

Your presence Terril, at any event potentially dilutes and weakens the original purpose, but you already know that.
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron
Sharone,

Don't let him upset you (he knows exactly what he's doing).

Your presence Terril, at any event potentially dilutes and weakens the original purpose, but you already know that.

So we can expect to see you at future events to put across your view and 'even things up'?

Axiom142
 

Axiom142

Gold Meritorious Patron

Well quite.

Can you see the point that I’m trying to make here?

If we start being very selective about who we allow to attend, and who gets to speak, then we become like the cult.

I don’t agree with everything that Terril says (actually most of it) but he turned up and was willing to speak in public. Terril has also attended many, many protests against the cult and spoken out for decades. Surely you have to give him kudos for that?

What are we supposed to do – say, “Sorry Terril, some people don’t like your presence here, so you can’t speak.”? The conference was open to everyone who had an interest in discussing Scientology. We sent personal invitations to several OSA staff and had they shown up, they would have been allowed to take part. Unsurprisingly, none of them did.

Unfortunately, Sharone wasn’t able to attend and she would undoubtedly have provided an interesting ( :coolwink: ) counterpoint to Terril and Vicky. Of course, we still have the video of Sharone speaking at Dublin earlier in the year, which is available to all. I don’t think that any person with the smallest amount of human decency would fail to be deeply moved by what she had to say about her experiences in Hubbard’s CoS.

Personally, I value everyone’s opinion, not just those that I agree with. If someone is talking b***ocks, then it will become pretty obvious rather quickly, won’t it?

Axiom142
 

Aelita

Patron
The day before the main IAS event, some of us went along to St Hill to say hello.

Being the sociable chap that he is, Martin Padfield decided to wander onto the grounds of St Hill (which is open to the public after all) and have a chat with whoever was willing to talk.

The security guard is apparently called Jordan Laveau (son of OSA CO Janet Laveau?) and although he was perfectly pleasant, did seem to be suffering from an acute case of robotitis. Instead of actually listening to what we said, he simply ‘acked’ with ‘OK’ and ‘I heard what you said’, even when it wasn’t appropriate.

I can see a TR re-tread coming up!

But the most amusing thing he let slip, was that in Miscavige’s cult of Scientology, simply talking to someone is a suppressive act!

While we know this is now, and has been the case for quite some while, to have it confirmed so blatantly by one of their own staff is rather surprising. Perhaps they have given up any pretence of being a ‘proper church’ and have adopted a “If you don’t like us, F**k off! We don’t care anymore.” stance?


http://youtu.be/m77UBAvkpek


Axiom142


haha funny! yeah he doesnt actually say that, he means to talk to someone who has been declared suppressive its suppressive act to talk to. not talking in general. But yes, its still stupid.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Well quite.

Can you see the point that I’m trying to make here?

If we start being very selective about who we allow to attend, and who gets to speak, then we become like the cult.

I don’t agree with everything that Terril says (actually most of it) but he turned up and was willing to speak in public. Terril has also attended many, many protests against the cult and spoken out for decades. Surely you have to give him kudos for that?

What are we supposed to do – say, “Sorry Terril, some people don’t like your presence here, so you can’t speak.”? The conference was open to everyone who had an interest in discussing Scientology. We sent personal invitations to several OSA staff and had they shown up, they would have been allowed to take part. Unsurprisingly, none of them did.

Unfortunately, Sharone wasn’t able to attend and she would undoubtedly have provided an interesting ( :coolwink: ) counterpoint to Terril and Vicky. Of course, we still have the video of Sharone speaking at Dublin earlier in the year, which is available to all. I don’t think that any person with the smallest amount of human decency would fail to be deeply moved by what she had to say about her experiences in Hubbard’s CoS.

Personally, I value everyone’s opinion, not just those that I agree with. If someone is talking b***ocks, then it will become pretty obvious rather quickly, won’t it?

Axiom142

Of course I see your point and I always have but it is (sometimes) like a red rag to a bull to mention 'certain' pro hubbard things to Sharone and it can seem deliberate, I wanted her to know that it's probably best not to react but to know that she is supported.

Your other points are also well taken but I personally wish the FZ would just take a hike.




 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
So we can expect to see you at future events to put across your view and 'even things up'?

Axiom142

HI Ax
You know very well I would have been there if I could.In fact I may have to move to East. Grinstead to make sure I am on the spot all the time. :biggrin:

I like the video very much, well done!

I actually love it when Scientologists speak, because it doesn't take a nuclear physicist to realise that it's a load of bunkum.

Happy trails, Axiom.
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
The buck stops with DM. Hubbard wrote in policy that any policy which is no longer usefull or forwards purpose should be junked. DM has failed to do so and in fact majored on making policy more draconian, and given the command intention that these are interpreted more savagely than by the inquisition.

An example is "Suppressive Acts" kindly updated in 1991, and the A-E
steps reworked. Specially step B. Here The original quite mild writing of letters and recompense to any individuals harmed is replaced by something very different. First step pay all debts to Scn organisations. This may include
very large Freedoader Bills which are completely unjust. Then one must
get an amends project approved by IJC "...suitable and commensurate with
the severity and extent of the SP acts committed be completed before further A-E steps are undertaken."

Note that this is making it open season to extract impossible sums of money and degrade individuals at will. One example I know consisted of
donating X number of basics to libraries, and then doing all basics courses.
At the end of this having paid out god knows how much money time etc its
written between the lines that more grovelling and donations must ensue merely to be allowed to actually DO further A-E steps.

The original SP declare was incidently a load of codswallop about someone refusing to have their human rights violated which was the "SP" act.

So here I quote 3 policies the general public wouldn't know and which you very possibly don't, and cite a real example from a friends experience which the public wouldn't know and would scarce believe if they heard the details.

Show me the Policy.
 

Sharone Stainforth

Silver Meritorious Patron
Sharone,

Don't let him upset you (he knows exactly what he's doing).

Your presence Terril, at any event potentially dilutes and weakens the original purpose, but you already know that.

He doesn't upset me.

You are quite right in what you say here, and yes he does know which is why he does it.

An interesting thing, that many people have said "how it is quite remarkable how few people that call themselves Scientologists actually met Hubbard" I could go one step further and say. "It is quite remarkable how few people who call themselves scientologists actually lived and worked with Hubbard daily" and I happened upon this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n-e7dHiZLps#!
 

wazn

Patron with Honors
The buck stops with DM. Hubbard wrote in policy that any policy which is no longer usefull or forwards purpose should be junked. DM has failed to do so and in fact majored on making policy more draconian, and given the command intention that these are interpreted more savagely than by the inquisition....

"Hubbard wrote in policy that any policy which is no longer useful or forwards purpose should be junked." Yes! And Hubbard (and DM) wrote and KEEP their hateful, self-serving policies, exactly because it is useful to them and/or forwards their purpose and their purpose, alone!

Scn is an ego based, fanatical thought system. Hubbard wrote ample justification to do whatever, to whomever gets in "their way". If it seems to violate "policy", well, per the "admin scale", purpose is senior to policy. Toss in a little KSW and "greatest good for the greatest number" - maybe add "Simon Bolivar" - it is all there as reason to or justification for - what ever.

While I agree that DM has amped up the hate, Hubbard originated and modeled it.
 
Sharon - that Mike Wallace interview is something else. Has nothing changed? Many of the points about Hubbard and Scientology in that video are the points we have today - and they didn't have the internet. Amazing. I liked the part where he asked Heber about attack the attacker and Heber did just that in his response. He attacked Wallace.

LOL

Another thing - Heber is in the Hole for his alleged SP acts, and yet - he was (and perhaps still is) an ardent zealous true believing Scientologist. When you look at his performance - that Kool-aid is close at hand. Gotta love the way Dave "the Duke" Miscavige rewards his upstat staff.

Mimsey
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Non-Cof$ Scientology has two faces:

1. This face tells potential customers/victims: "Don't worry - we are 100% Hubbard KSW. Nothing taken out, nothing added in."

2. This face tells critics, the media and wogs: "Don't worry, we've taken all the bad stuff out."

So their "truth" depends on who's asking the questions.

pants_on_fire.jpg

 

Terril park

Sponsor
Show me the Policy.

HCOPL 13 Mar 1965 issue III " THE STRUCTURE OF ORGANISATION WHAT IS POLICY?"

" Periodic sweep outs of antiquated and didactic laws [rather than general concepts and subpurposes] ~must~ be undertaken by a being,organisation,group or race or species."

Or were you querying the old and new "Suppressive acts" PL?
 

Terril park

Sponsor
Of course I see your point and I always have but it is (sometimes) like a red rag to a bull to mention 'certain' pro hubbard things to Sharone and it can seem deliberate, I wanted her to know that it's probably best not to react but to know that she is supported.

Your other points are also well taken but I personally wish the FZ would just take a hike.





As it happens I wasn't saying anything pro Hubbard. I was definitely
giving statements that were anti DM. The policies I mentioned are used
in very draconian ways to denigrate parishioners and they are a path to abuse which have been little commented on and are IMO worth airing.
 

solo

Patron with Honors
I think its worth making the point that this conference is aimed at the
general public rather than the critical community. The fact that there was not a consistent view seems a strength. This was mentioned by some and in
particular the journalists and film crew. They very much appreciated that despite the differing viepoints we got along together happily and had fun.The important thing was that all viewpoints considered CO$ abusive and a cult.

What led the conference in the direction it went was less the composition of the panel but more on the questions asked. So the first question was along the lines of "what got you interested in scientology" [ unfortunately
not audible in the recording] and thus people answered that question. One of the journalists [who knew almost nothing about Scn] toward the end asked about the harm done by COS and this got more of the sort of response you desire. As it happens most if not all of the questions were asked by people who seemed new to the subject and wanted answers to their questions, which were not ones it seems you yourself would ask.

Detailed discussion of should one blame Hubbard or DM re abuses while quite relevant here would go over the head of the broad general public. One needs lots of background knowledge to discuss such matters.

Its coincidence that the meeting was held in " The Old Courthouse". CO$ was on trial and the jury unanimously declared it guilty of abuse.


Points taken Terrill, thanks.



Pete Griffiths did a magnificent job of organising the event.

Yes, sorry, I wasn't sure who had organised it, I just knew Ax did the video. Well done to Pete, he was a great host.
 

Aelita

Patron
“Miscavige, being a suppressive psychotic, cannot afford the luxury of self-inspection,” Poore says.
The Scientology leader instead continues to tell his flock that church expansion is growing faster than ever.
But Poore, like others who have left recently, says he doesn’t believe Miscavige’s pronouncements about church growth.
“The only thing that’s straight up and vertical is the number of enemies he creates every single day,” he says. “Then the enemy eventually becomes everybody.”
But Poore adds that Miscavige is quite aware of the direction things are going in.
“Miscavige is living a nightmare. He is scared to his core. He’s really someone to be pitied,” Steve Poor says.



http://ortegaunderground.wordpress....der-david-miscavige-he-is-scared-to-his-core/
 
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