nowout
Patron with Honors
I can't believe what a mess Davis has made of this.
Agreed. Not only is it Glutz PR, but the blatant lies these guys are told to do with their dog and pony show will make it stick and it will just not go away, or "as-is".
St Petersburg Times: Part Three (of 3) : Ecclesiastical justice
- Thread starter Kha Khan
- Start date
Agreed. Not only is it Glutz PR, but the blatant lies these guys are told to do with their dog and pony show will make it stick and it will just not go away, or "as-is".
Dulloldfart
Squirrel Extraordinaire
The repercussions from this series will be considerable. Many regular churchies will hear about it from their friends and associates even if they shy away from the news reports themselves. The broad public perception of top execs in the CofS beating their minions and each other, throwing each other in pools and lakes, and all the rest of it will never disappear. Celebs too. Will more now leave?
Yes, Rinder was a disappointment. But remember he has only been out for two years. At least the slimeball said something.
Paul
Yes, Rinder was a disappointment. But remember he has only been out for two years. At least the slimeball said something.
Paul
ILived1984!
Patron with Honors
One of the many things Davis said that made me laugh hard was that the "defactors" weren't tough enough for the Sea Org and left........yet they each had over 25 years of service at top management.
degraded being
Sponsor
I think it's got to be a "last straw" for a lot of members.
Most posters here knew that things weren't right before they left, but rationalised things and didn't have proof that their fears that things at the top might be rotten were well founded.
Now they cannot possibly not see it. All those little doubts - it is now possible
for members to talk about the things they didn't like. They can see where it was coming from (at least up to top management, if not to elron -just yet)
All those OTs who have been around for years and years - keeping quiet.
They have to talk now.
A lot will decide it's time to walk.
Most posters here knew that things weren't right before they left, but rationalised things and didn't have proof that their fears that things at the top might be rotten were well founded.
Now they cannot possibly not see it. All those little doubts - it is now possible
for members to talk about the things they didn't like. They can see where it was coming from (at least up to top management, if not to elron -just yet)
All those OTs who have been around for years and years - keeping quiet.
They have to talk now.
A lot will decide it's time to walk.
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
I can't believe what a mess Davis has made of this.
That is where Miscavige screwed up, he should have never allowed the son of a celebrity to be the cult's mouth piece. Someone who is immune from the torturous abuses of Hubbard's policies due to his ties to celebrities is libel to act too much like a real Scientologist for the public to handle. He should have learned this from Cruise and Alley. It's hard to believe there are still people out there who act as if Hubbard's pile of shit known as Scientology has some value to it.
Bea Kiddo
Crusader
If the beatings are/were real (I cannot say, because I never worked with DM or witnessed it) Tommy would not be immune because of celebrity ties.
Here is why:
Tom DeVocht is claiming beatings.
Correct me if I am wrong, but he was married to Jenny DeVocht, who is the daughter or step-daughter of Mark Isham. This one:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0006142/
In the realm of scientology, a celebrity is also a family member, such as Avis Hope, the niece of Bob Hope, who was on lines for a while (no clue what happened to her...)
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
Miscavige typically beats people who do not have the self confidence or financial resources to walk away from the cult, he preys on the weak just like any other damaged bully. He may yell at Tommy Davis but I doubt he beats him. That's not to say it won't start after the damage Tommy is causing to the cult's public image with his very public nervous breakdown. I see a Miscavige supervised Introspection Rundown in Tommy's very near future
HolyCow
Patron with Honors
It's an outrage, all that overboarding and no music! That's cruel. Perfect music vid: Man Overboard (complete with midgets even!) 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OCBAiBNLj0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OCBAiBNLj0
Axiom142
Gold Meritorious Patron
This part has some of the most revealing er, revelations to come out of the mouthpieces of the cult.
For example:
Church spokesmen confirm that managers are ordered into pools and assembled for group confessions. It's part of the "ecclesiastical justice'' system the church imposes on poor performers.
Huh? Since when have group confessionals been part of official policy? I don’t know of any Hubbard reference on this – although I am willing to be corrected, of course.
And this eye-opener, re overboarding:
Starkey, the 66-year-old former captain of the Apollo, said plenty of people have been overboarded in his 50 years in Scientology.
If a Sea Org member messes up, "you throw him over the g-- d--- side of the ship," Starkey said.
"He falls into the water, he swims around, climbs up the ladder, gets off at the dock, walks back in again. He never does that again. He knows that that is the way we operate. That is what the Sea Organization is like."
Church lawyer Monique Yingling said overboarding is part of ecclesiastical justice. "They're not backing away from it or ashamed of it,'' she said. It has been done hundreds of times, with precautions taken to make it safe.
In the example De Vocht and Rinder recounted, church spokesmen said, the pool was heated, towels were provided, a lifeguard was present. And Miscavige wasn't even there.
De Vocht and Rinder say he was. "He was standing right there, laughing,'' Rinder said. "It was very entertaining for him."
Rinder said he doesn't remember any towels at the ready, that night or any of the 10 or so other times he says large groups of staffers were escorted to the lake under guard and required to jump in fully dressed.
He disputed Yingling's contention the "overboarding" incident as described, with a large group of people, is accepted church practice. He said it's meant to address an issue with an individual.
Which is how church spokesman Davis said he punished a subordinate.
"It was a guy who was blowing it and kept blowing it and kept blowing it — making mistakes, underperforming," he said. "It was my responsibility to uphold the ethical standards of the Sea Org. Yeah, absolutely, I tossed the guy in.''
For years they have vehemently denied that they threw Sea Org members overboard, despite the wealth of eye-witness testimony. Now, they are admitting it and saying it is a perfectly OK thing to do.
Throw a fully clothed person off the deck of a ship or into a freezing pond? For God’s sake, what sort of organisation does that?
If any company in the UK did that to it’s employees they would be facing a huge bill for compensation and quite probably criminal charges for physical abuse and torture.
And, they even admit that the ‘Musical Chairs’ incident took place:
Again, church officials said, the defectors are making the normal seem abnormal. Miscavige was merely trying to make a point, they said, citing a Hubbard policy that says frequent personnel transfers are like "musical chairs" and can harm a group's progress. Miscavige wanted the group to see for themselves how destructive that can be.
It is quite clear now that the cult have no idea how to handle this crisis and are in panic mode, making gaffe after gaffe. Expect many more footbullets in the near future as the cult descends further into madness.
Axiom142
For example:
Church spokesmen confirm that managers are ordered into pools and assembled for group confessions. It's part of the "ecclesiastical justice'' system the church imposes on poor performers.
Huh? Since when have group confessionals been part of official policy? I don’t know of any Hubbard reference on this – although I am willing to be corrected, of course.
And this eye-opener, re overboarding:
Starkey, the 66-year-old former captain of the Apollo, said plenty of people have been overboarded in his 50 years in Scientology.
If a Sea Org member messes up, "you throw him over the g-- d--- side of the ship," Starkey said.
"He falls into the water, he swims around, climbs up the ladder, gets off at the dock, walks back in again. He never does that again. He knows that that is the way we operate. That is what the Sea Organization is like."
Church lawyer Monique Yingling said overboarding is part of ecclesiastical justice. "They're not backing away from it or ashamed of it,'' she said. It has been done hundreds of times, with precautions taken to make it safe.
In the example De Vocht and Rinder recounted, church spokesmen said, the pool was heated, towels were provided, a lifeguard was present. And Miscavige wasn't even there.
De Vocht and Rinder say he was. "He was standing right there, laughing,'' Rinder said. "It was very entertaining for him."
Rinder said he doesn't remember any towels at the ready, that night or any of the 10 or so other times he says large groups of staffers were escorted to the lake under guard and required to jump in fully dressed.
He disputed Yingling's contention the "overboarding" incident as described, with a large group of people, is accepted church practice. He said it's meant to address an issue with an individual.
Which is how church spokesman Davis said he punished a subordinate.
"It was a guy who was blowing it and kept blowing it and kept blowing it — making mistakes, underperforming," he said. "It was my responsibility to uphold the ethical standards of the Sea Org. Yeah, absolutely, I tossed the guy in.''
For years they have vehemently denied that they threw Sea Org members overboard, despite the wealth of eye-witness testimony. Now, they are admitting it and saying it is a perfectly OK thing to do.
Throw a fully clothed person off the deck of a ship or into a freezing pond? For God’s sake, what sort of organisation does that?
If any company in the UK did that to it’s employees they would be facing a huge bill for compensation and quite probably criminal charges for physical abuse and torture.
And, they even admit that the ‘Musical Chairs’ incident took place:
Again, church officials said, the defectors are making the normal seem abnormal. Miscavige was merely trying to make a point, they said, citing a Hubbard policy that says frequent personnel transfers are like "musical chairs" and can harm a group's progress. Miscavige wanted the group to see for themselves how destructive that can be.
It is quite clear now that the cult have no idea how to handle this crisis and are in panic mode, making gaffe after gaffe. Expect many more footbullets in the near future as the cult descends further into madness.
Axiom142
Merman
Patron
What a difference a decade can make (scroll down a bit)
yes, yes... this is clearly the way to win over the wogs... of the Stone Age!
So you are confirming your pride/machismo in how "tough" your members are. Like a group of US Marines, who at the slightest mistake are commanded to get "thrown over the "god damn" side of the ship". And unlike a military group, you guys will do this just as willingly to the elderly (which has been reported in the past).
Confirming you are the "tough sons of bitches" that Tommy Davis proudly states in the beginning of his vocal tirade, I guess that accomplishes....
what?
For one thing, it is clear that they can no longer manage to stick to a straight story.
Tommy Davis also says in the audio interview:
Interestingly, Tommy is CLEARLY implying in this statement (part 2 of 6; audio interview) that Miscavige isn't doing those things right??
but then in today's article:
and
Soo.....
2 days later church officials are doing a 180!! on the story! and saying that people WERE ordered to be thrown into the pool and people WERE involved in a "musical chairs" incident to help them see "how destructive (their actions) can be".
???
?????????
Changing their story of what happened THIS DRAMATICALLY is unprecedented!
yes, yes... this is clearly the way to win over the wogs... of the Stone Age!
So you are confirming your pride/machismo in how "tough" your members are. Like a group of US Marines, who at the slightest mistake are commanded to get "thrown over the "god damn" side of the ship". And unlike a military group, you guys will do this just as willingly to the elderly (which has been reported in the past).
Confirming you are the "tough sons of bitches" that Tommy Davis proudly states in the beginning of his vocal tirade, I guess that accomplishes....
what?
For one thing, it is clear that they can no longer manage to stick to a straight story.
Tommy Davis also says in the audio interview:
but then how does Scientology expand so amazingly??!! (is his point)
Interestingly, Tommy is CLEARLY implying in this statement (part 2 of 6; audio interview) that Miscavige isn't doing those things right??
but then in today's article:
and
Soo.....
2 days later church officials are doing a 180!! on the story! and saying that people WERE ordered to be thrown into the pool and people WERE involved in a "musical chairs" incident to help them see "how destructive (their actions) can be".
???
?????????
Changing their story of what happened THIS DRAMATICALLY is unprecedented!
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AngryGayPope
Patron with Honors
I spoke to a Scientologist on Hwd Blvd Monday Who Knew of Article
While at a Hollywood event TC and KH attended I saw a scientologist standing at the corner of the christie hotel (vertical sign building).
He was one of those old ones with teeth that had fallen out from nicotine. I looked like a tourist and I told him about the St. Pete times article. He said he knew about it! Wonder how he found out? Hopefully from scuttlebutt and gossip and not from protesters.
While at a Hollywood event TC and KH attended I saw a scientologist standing at the corner of the christie hotel (vertical sign building).
He was one of those old ones with teeth that had fallen out from nicotine. I looked like a tourist and I told him about the St. Pete times article. He said he knew about it! Wonder how he found out? Hopefully from scuttlebutt and gossip and not from protesters.
AngryGayPope
Patron with Honors
Tommy Davis cussing so much
I'm a potty mouth myself but I was wondering why TOmmy Davis was cussing so much on the St. Pete audio. Was this a phone interview and he was really angry or something? he was not this obscene with Nathan Baca. Doesn't seem like the kind of thing a spokesman should say.
I'm a potty mouth myself but I was wondering why TOmmy Davis was cussing so much on the St. Pete audio. Was this a phone interview and he was really angry or something? he was not this obscene with Nathan Baca. Doesn't seem like the kind of thing a spokesman should say.
nowout
Patron with Honors
Yes, she was WDC FSO & FSSO some time ago and is now Jennifer Linson
Bio on TDV says: Divorced from Sea Org member Jennifer Linson. They had no children. http://www.tampabay.com/news/article1012137.ece
Not sure of the connection to Mark Isham, never heard that, but her parents from http://www.slatkinfraud.com/inv_2001_4b.htm are:
Linson, Art . Santa Monica, CA 90402
Linson, Barbara "lil" . Clearwater, FL 34616
According to correspondence from site visitors, Art Linson has never been a Scientologist, although both his sister and his ex-wife were involved with the church in the past. There is, however, a Lil Linson, possibly his ex-wife, who appears as a Patron of IAS, and is also congratulated for her efforts with the Clearwater Community Volunteers, a Scientology-run group.
Jenna also mentions her extensive dealings and enounters with Jenny: http://xenutv.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/scientology-contacts-jenna-miscavige-hill/
Merman
Patron
Most likely, since this is the first globally released "black pr" focused directly at David Miscavige, he is telling Tommy Davis directly and through his juniors to curse and attack these "accusations" with more anger and fury than any black pr in the church's history.
Remember how Marty said he witnessed a decline in Miscavige from the time he was personally named in an amended complaint in the November 1999 case? Remember how BFG has always said that mentions of Miscavige personally in the press is the thing that infuriates him the most?
Tommy Davis doesn't decide what Tommy Davis says to the press, he is ordered to drill exact key words and sound bytes for hours and hours... and who do you think tells him what to say to the press???
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Boojuum
Silver Meritorious Patron
Off policy
I'm looking for the PL that states "Overboarding and beatings will continue until the morale improves."
Both are blatantly off policy. Can you think of any organization where throwing people overboard has proven successful? It was nuts when LRH did it in the 60's and nuttier now.
This is bad news for the CofS. It's a big deal.
First, Anonymous, now this. This is Pulitzer Prize stuff. The thugs are being shown up for what they are, thugs. As soon as a higher profile news network links the St. Pete Times story with the other big time defections of the past few years and Anonymous....It's a big deal. National Enquirer, CNN, CNBC won't be able to resist the high profile names. Too juicy to ignore.
I'm looking for the PL that states "Overboarding and beatings will continue until the morale improves."
Both are blatantly off policy. Can you think of any organization where throwing people overboard has proven successful? It was nuts when LRH did it in the 60's and nuttier now.
This is bad news for the CofS. It's a big deal.
First, Anonymous, now this. This is Pulitzer Prize stuff. The thugs are being shown up for what they are, thugs. As soon as a higher profile news network links the St. Pete Times story with the other big time defections of the past few years and Anonymous....It's a big deal. National Enquirer, CNN, CNBC won't be able to resist the high profile names. Too juicy to ignore.
ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn
Crusader
Only time I heard of it being successful is when they used cement shoes
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