Stabbing @ Scio Sydney - 12/2/2019 9:42 PM Central Time USA

oneonewasaracecar

Gold Meritorious Patron
^^^

You've destroyed my image of Crocodile Dundee with this information about knives being illegal in Australia.... :( I'm shocked!

Yes, it certainly opens lots of questions about what status the Taiwanese Cult Members in Australia are living under...

I have no idea.

Are they Sponsored by the Cult?
Yes
If they are "Sponsored" by the Cult....?

If they are employed by the Cult....is what the Cult pays really enough money to live on? Is this even considered by the Australian laws?
They pay something like $0.50 to $1.00 per hour. It is not enough to live on.
Are they legally allowed to work in Australia..?
Yes. They can also collect welfare which you can live on, but not well, especially with a child.
If the Mother came to work for the Cult....what is the status of her dependent child? Is the child allowed to work? Was the parent required to show any sort of ability of monetary support for her dependent while in Australia?
The child would have full status for work and healthcare if she has a visa.
Does the Cult take away their passports as I've heard they do in Clearwater to the foreign workers there....
I don't know.
I also read that about 50% of the Cult Staff in Australia are from Taiwan.
More like 90%. Senior roles in the Sea Org are Aussies. Taiwanese are used for EPF and handing out flyers. Not sure who does the auditing.
There was the earlier case of the Taiwanese girl there ....that was put in Cult Isolation....and broke a window with her hand....then ended up in a Hospital.
I believe she said she had been "trafficked" to Australia by the Cult...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02...ogy-denies-holding-woman-in-isolation/4539658

I have many of the same questions about the Eastern Europeans and Russians I've heard that work for the Cult in Clearwater Florida....

I guess in the States they are brought in under some sort of Religious worker status...but I've no idea what that means...or what their rights are under that sort of situation.
None of the stories mention if she is on a work VISA, however if they say he is Taiwanese, which indicates he is not a Australian citizen which indicates she is on some sort of religious work VISA. In this case, after any jail sentence he would be deported. Not sure if she would be deported too.

If he is deemed mentally unfit, he may be placed under psychiatric care instead.

There are pretty much no options which look good for the family.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Yes

They pay something like $0.50 to $1.00 per hour. It is not enough to live on.

Yes. They can also collect welfare which you can live on, but not well, especially with a child.

The child would have full status for work and healthcare if she has a visa.

I don't know.

More like 90%. Senior roles in the Sea Org are Aussies. Taiwanese are used for EPF and handing out flyers. Not sure who does the auditing.

None of the stories mention if she is on a work VISA, however if they say he is Taiwanese, which indicates he is not a Australian citizen which indicates she is on some sort of religious work VISA. In this case, after any jail sentence he would be deported. Not sure if she would be deported too.

If he is deemed mentally unfit, he may be placed under psychiatric care instead.

There are pretty much no options which look good for the family.
Thanks for that.

During the Alice Wu incident a few years ago, the Taiwanese recruits were not on religious visas, which are trackable, but electronic visitor visas that had to be renewed every few months or so. Those visitor visas are apparently inappropriate for SO recruits.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
This seems pure speculation to me...You are assuming quite a bit here.
This sort of thing happens when the news gets leaked out over time, people fill in the blanks or interpret statements to fill a void. Miss Ellie in her OP stated Mike and Leah would be blamed, we don't know that either but people speculate to supply answers that they don't have. Most people do it. See, I just did it myself.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
He had a right to remain on the property initially but only until the representatives of the owners of the property, in this case the COS, revoked his right to be there and and asked him to leave. You have a "right" to remain on private property only so long as the owner permits it. Once the owner revokes permission, you are trespassing if you remain. You have to leave.

The way it normally works is as follows. The COS asks someone to leave, and tells them that if they don't the COS will call the police. If the person agrees to leave, there is no need to call the police. And if the person agrees to leave, you certainly aren't going to wait for the police to escort him out.

The 16-year-old apparently agreed to leave and was being escorted off the property. At some point, he pulled a knife and stabbed people, killing one.

I believe any attempt to blame the SO security guards in this case ignores the evidence of the alleged perpetrator's intent and willingness to commit violence -- i.e., carrying "a 25cm [i.e., almost 10 inch] “very sharp kitchen knife."" See https://www.news.com.au/national/ns...s/news-story/661dd8a201bfabee9e156e8c03345376

The fact he carried such a knife provides evidence that he came there with the intent to hurt someone, probably his family member.
I can't speak for Australia, but in America, if you hold yourself out to provide services to the public, you are not private. Just because you have a sign that says you reserve the right to refuse service for any reason, does not make that sign legally valid.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
I completely disagree with Chief Inspector Jones statement above.....

The kid did not stab and cut a family member....he stabbed and cut 2 Sea Org men.

It would seem to me he was mad at them. Or they did something to him to set him off...

The incident happened at a Cult facility....against Cult SO members. How can this Chief Inspector state it was not related to the Cult???
You don't know whether he was related to one of the escorts but calling it a domestic incident as opposed to having anything related to the church is the beginnings of legal maneuvering by calling it something that disconnects it from the church. However, there will be a trial because someone died and there will be witnesses that come from the church because they are involved. The kid is lucky he was arrested that they can't give him the Lisa McPherson treatment.
 

Leland

Crusader
You don't know whether he was related to one of the escorts but calling it a domestic incident as opposed to having anything related to the church is the beginnings of legal maneuvering by calling it something that disconnects it from the church. However, there will be a trial because someone died and there will be witnesses that come from the church because they are involved. The kid is lucky he was arrested that they can't give him the Lisa McPherson treatment.
Yes, very much so!

The HCO could have escorted him to an Isolation Room.....
 

freethinker

Sponsor
No, I am not. What I'm saying is based on two things. First, the news reports. Second, how the COS currently handles people it wants to leave the premises. The current practice is that 8C is NOT used to remove a person from the premises, and that such a person is NOT touched. This is for reasons of criminal and civil liability, and because it is simply not necessary. The person is asked to leave, and told that if they don't leave the police will be called to remove them from the premises. If the person leaves voluntarily, they are escorted out without touching them. If the person doesn't leave voluntarily, the police are called to remove them.

The above is consistent with the facts that have been reported so far. Obviously, it is possible new facts will come out. Maybe the 16-year-old will say the SO members attacked him for some insane reason and he was defending himself. But right now, all that has been reported is that he was asked or told to leave, and they were escorting off the premises. The place of the stabbing was far down the driveway. (I've seen the picture.) Why the hell would the SO members attack him if he was leaving?
If HCO bring order was used, they will use physical force to remove someone and will be supported for doing it by the church because it is policy. It is written down in Hubbard words with an atomic branding iron.

Because someone was stabbed we can't assume normal protocol, we can't assume he wasn't resisting being kicked out and can't assume he wasn't taken out forceably.

There is a lot more to this than what is reported because someone was stabbed and usual left the building on that fact alone.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
First, there is no evidence n to support it. None so far.

Secondly, even as speculation it makes no sense. The crime scene photo is below. [bcolor=#ff0000]He was leaving[/bcolor]. They were far down the driveway. Why the hell would the SO people start "bringing order" on a 16-year-old who was leaving? And do so to the point where he would be justified using deadly force?

I think I'm as critical of Scientology as anyone, and tweet and cross-post such criticism. But really, a 16-year-old brings a 10 inch knife to visit a family member, winds up stabbing someone to death and cutting another person, and in the absence of any supporting evidence people are going to say it was the fault of the two people who got stabbed and cut?

E1Acpx5.png
As there is little evidence and mostly hearsay so far, you can't assume he was leaving just because the news report suggests it and he "far down the road", he may have wanted or tried to return to get what he came there for so don't fall into the trap of believing what is reported because news outlets of today are very flawed and likely speculate themselves.

I see your point but it is also an assumption that he was amicably leaving.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
View attachment 14862This looks like a friendly Cult Security guy...( in black...) at the grand opening ceremony of the location....employed at AO SH ANZO.
(joking...)

Perhaps the kid knew about the Soundproof rooms with "rubber walls."
He is wearing an ID that looks just like the one the POLICE FORCE officer is wearing, I don't think he is cult, at least not COS cult.
 

Leland

Crusader
He is wearing an ID that looks just like the one the POLICE FORCE officer is wearing, I don't think he is cult, at least not COS cult.
Well, I was just going off the printed attribution below the photograph.

By the way, this is a pic from the Grand Opening Celebration and has nothing to do with this thread! (if you missed that...)

It states that the "Police are taking to Security...."

Yes, I do see that badge....but am assuming for that Event with COB in attendance....that it is some sort of Security ID badge....?
 

George Layton

Silver Meritorious Patron
I don't know if it legal to carry a 10 inch knife in Australia. Even if it is, the fact he was carrying it does not look good.

In theory, if HCO was "bringing order" he might have a right to use deadly force defend himself against two grown men who were attacking him IF he reasonably believed he was in danger of death or serious bodily harm. There are two problems with this theory.

First, there is no evidence n to support it. None so far.

Secondly, even as speculation it makes no sense. The crime scene photo is below. He was leaving. They were far down the driveway. Why the hell would the SO people start "bringing order" on a 16-year-old who was leaving? And do so to the point where he would be justified using deadly force?

I think I'm as critical of Scientology as anyone, and tweet and cross-post such criticism. But really, a 16-year-old brings a 10 inch knife to visit a family member, winds up stabbing someone to death and cutting another person, and in the absence of any supporting evidence people are going to say it was the fault of the two people who got stabbed and cut?

E1Acpx5.png
Because there is a policy of escorting someone without touching them does not mean that the SO members did it in silence. How much mental adjustment had been applied to this boy before hand and what was said as he was being escorted may have a lot to do with the incident.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
^^^

You've destroyed my image of Crocodile Dundee with this information about knives being illegal in Australia.... :( I'm shocked!

Yes, it certainly opens lots of questions about what status the Taiwanese Cult Members in Australia are living under...

I have no idea.

Are they Sponsored by the Cult?

If they are "Sponsored" by the Cult....?

If they are employed by the Cult....is what the Cult pays really enough money to live on? Is this even considered by the Australian laws?

Are they legally allowed to work in Australia..?

If the Mother came to work for the Cult....what is the status of her dependent child? Is the child allowed to work? Was the parent required to show any sort of ability of monetary support for her dependent while in Australia?

Does the Cult take away their passports as I've heard they do in Clearwater to the foreign workers there....

I also read that about 50% of the Cult Staff in Australia are from Taiwan.

There was the earlier case of the Taiwanese girl there ....that was put in Cult Isolation....and broke a window with her hand....then ended up in a Hospital.
I believe she said she had been "trafficked" to Australia by the Cult...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02...ogy-denies-holding-woman-in-isolation/4539658

I have many of the same questions about the Eastern Europeans and Russians I've heard that work for the Cult in Clearwater Florida....

I guess in the States they are brought in under some sort of Religious worker status...but I've no idea what that means...or what their rights are under that sort of situation.
OK, now it looks like a Lisa McPherson story. The lawyer seems like a scum bag to me; his eyes darting as he answers questions.

This could be a huge problem for Scientology because now the Introspection Rundown has come up a second time in relation to a death at the Church.

Somebody get that family a really good lawyer.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
^^^

You've destroyed my image of Crocodile Dundee with this information about knives being illegal in Australia.... :( I'm shocked!

Yes, it certainly opens lots of questions about what status the Taiwanese Cult Members in Australia are living under...

I have no idea.

Are they Sponsored by the Cult?

If they are "Sponsored" by the Cult....?

If they are employed by the Cult....is what the Cult pays really enough money to live on? Is this even considered by the Australian laws?

Are they legally allowed to work in Australia..?

If the Mother came to work for the Cult....what is the status of her dependent child? Is the child allowed to work? Was the parent required to show any sort of ability of monetary support for her dependent while in Australia?

Does the Cult take away their passports as I've heard they do in Clearwater to the foreign workers there....

I also read that about 50% of the Cult Staff in Australia are from Taiwan.

There was the earlier case of the Taiwanese girl there ....that was put in Cult Isolation....and broke a window with her hand....then ended up in a Hospital.
I believe she said she had been "trafficked" to Australia by the Cult...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02...ogy-denies-holding-woman-in-isolation/4539658

I have many of the same questions about the Eastern Europeans and Russians I've heard that work for the Cult in Clearwater Florida....

I guess in the States they are brought in under some sort of Religious worker status...but I've no idea what that means...or what their rights are under that sort of situation.
Don't worry, I'm sure there are plenty of Aussies carrying knives in the outback. I think it is required for survival as it is very rough out there from what I have heard.
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
Back in the late sixties when I was a London Org staff member I was in the reception area when someone lobbed a brick through the main plate-glass window. Ron Hopkins, the then OES, ran down the street, grabbed the person responsible, dragged him back into the shop and beat the shit out of him. Can't see that happening today somehow (or at least having that happen and there being no repercussions whatsoever).
 

freethinker

Sponsor
Well, I was just going off the printed attribution below the photograph.

By the way, this is a pic from the Grand Opening Celebration and has nothing to do with this thread! (if you missed that...)

It states that the "Police are taking to Security...."

Yes, I do see that badge....but am assuming for that Event with COB in attendance....that it is some sort of Security ID badge....?
I only looked at the picture. I did wonder why the lady cop was grinning. If that was an event for the COS then it could be their ID badge to prevent impostor cops from infiltrating.
 

Wilbur

Patron Meritorious
I hope this is not covered up by the Cult as some domestic dispute...

The facts as available is that this kid stabbed and slashed 2 grown men, escorting him off the Cult premises....

Could he have been defending himself?
Did these 2 men have their hands on the child?
Just how did they "get him off the Cult property"?
What authority did these 2 SO Cult members have to order him about?
What right did they have to do anything to him?

If he "had a right to be there" as stated in the News....then the situation appears to me to be another case of the Cult taking the Law into their own hands again...

Did the kid feel threatened by these 2 men?
What did these 2 men say to the kid?

If the kid was causing a disturbance of some sort....why didn't they just call the Police? ( we all know the answer to that one....)
Yeah, but unless you're from the 'hood', you don't go around carrying a bread knife in your jacket pocket. Which suggests they had really upset him the previous day, and he'd gone back ready to cause trouble. He probably took the knife as back-up for self-defence when they inevitably tried to remove him from the property. If he did that, then he's fucked from a legal perspective. It's hard to claim self-defence when you turned up with a bread knife in your pocket.

I think the big question is, what was the altercation ABOUT? It might have nothing to do with Scientology. Maybe he was just the wayward offspring of a parishioner, dragged along to AOSH ANZO while the parent did services. But it's just as likely that it has something to do with Scientology.

Who knows, perhaps the relative had just been recruited into the SO, and the boy felt that he'd lost his relative to a cult and wanted to have it out with AOSH. Or maybe he discovered that his Xmas present was that his parent had just spent his college fund on OTV.
 
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