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Stably exterior with full perception

beyond_horizons

Patron Meritorious
I feel maaaarvolous! :party::party::party:
Wow! THANK YOU for sharing this!

:clapping2: :clapping2: :clapping2:

Many, many, of the most life changing realizations and releases I had before and after getting completely out of that Star Trek, Star Wars, cult was in realizing most of the stuff that was bothering me was "this lifetime" stuff that while in the box went so unconfronted during those 'Starry Eyed' days and those 'Starry Eyed' people in and of hubbo's scientology.

And more than not my stuff came to light in life and in the work place amongst the very smart and very successful folks I worked with and found myself amoung as they shared their stories often during the teaming events and get togethers where facilitators focused upon various root causes of stuff.

Seems to me, in order to pass himself off as less evil he needed to focus and fix your attention on something more incredibly evil. Hence the Xemnu bull shit head fuck!

Now, not only does the poor scientologist have to get past Xemnu, they now have to get past hubbo himself.
:D :D :D

My consern is that, in preserve, protect, and promote standard tech, this evil has the potential to remanifest on a limited scale, however unlikely on a broad scale, since the advent of the internet!

Agan thank you Alan for sharing!

:amen:
 
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Terril park

Sponsor
Thats okay - you usually do not believe anything......so this is a big step forward.

Julia was not SO. She was the Western Continental Director of the Americas. Head of all Western American Orgs including South Americas and Canada, HQ in LA.

As for her being 55 - she may well have been - any female over 26 was old to me in those days :)

I was a child of 33.

As I am 6ft 4ins I have always been heavier than most people - back then I weighed around 235 lbs.

Also back then people were not offloaded because of old age. It was almost 40 years ago. The abuses were only just beginning in earnest.

Next time I will clear my posts through you to see that I have the proper issue authority.

Alan

Perhaps I should clear this one via Roland also.

Recently the original APA by Julia Salmon has been found and will be available to all soon. This was the forerunner of the OCA. Julia was a qualified psychologist, and had extra quals re testing. Such was the quality of some of the pioneers.

I believe she Pioneered LA.

I've heard a story from one who was there back in the fifties that she promised a visit from LRH at a congress or something. She pulled in a look alike.

This is probably the genesis of the rumours of LRH having doubles, and/or changing size.
 

beyond_horizons

Patron Meritorious
I also have been forgiven once by my auditor; I believe it was at the end of Grade 2.
I once had an auditor tell me that once, I instantly replied ... Duh ... if I thought you wouldn't, I wouldn't have told you waht I told you! :D

I felt like, who the hell do you think you are anyway as I wasn't there because I thought it was a church?
:D
 

Terril park

Sponsor
IMO, it's self centered for you - or me - to think that much changes if you - or I - "forgive LRH." What he created is still out there. L. Ron Hubbard's (Commodore Hubbard's) Scientology is in the phone book.

It's not mainly about you, or me. It's mainly about other people.

By all means, "Forgive LRH," if that makes you feel better. Personally, I don't want LRH for a snugglebunny anyway, so I don't need to kiss and make up.

Div 6 or anyone is entitled to do what ever they want in their universe. They do not need a licence from you or anyone else for that.

You have become what you resist!
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
Thanks very much Alan. I'd heard the story of Julia before, but good to get your account.

Without the Internet these stories would disappear and the CofS would succeed in their project of elevating LRH to perfect status.

I'm very interested to read that you had to use similar self-deception tactics as I did to stay in the CofS. I suppose we all did.

Looking back it beggers belief that we could have allowed such things to go on. Isn't it incredible that we hear stories on here of people recently leaving who all these years later experienced similar abuses?

All us from the fifties, sixties and seventies who knew LRH did these things and who left and stayed quiet are the ones that allowed Scn to continue to abuse and dramatise LRH's madness.

The urge for spiritual freedom must be terribly strong to allow us to tolerate what we did! :sad:
 

Div6

Crusader
Only human? That's not how he described himself to Scientologists. The premise was that he was super-human, and others could be too. Remember?

Where did he say this?

And he was the ONLY ONE who could do it. Thus 'KSW', and Fair Game, and covert Ops, and the Commodore/Sea Org construct, etc., etc., was all justified.
Then why all the policy? Why train auditors? Why Class XII's?

Was there no gain in it at all for you?
 
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beyond_horizons

Patron Meritorious
Div 6 or anyone is entitled to do what ever they want in their universe.
Considering there is only one universe here, and every one has their own room with a view :), when someone messes in the fish tank the rest of of us tend to smell it!

Read a book go to school! It's not too late to learn something new! :)
 

Veda

Sponsor
Div 6 or anyone is entitled to do what ever they want in their universe. They do not need a licence from you or anyone else for that.

You have become what you resist!

A person can only forgive another person for things done to himself.

I can't forgive Hubbard for what he ordered done to Paulette Cooper, only Paulette Cooper can.

Now go suckle on one of those big juicy LRH "datums" you love so much.

Yummy!
 

Veda

Sponsor
Where did he say this?


Then why all the policy? Why train auditors? Why Class XII's?

Was there no gain in it at all for you?

You must be kidding.

Or are you in complete denial?

Added later:

OK. I have a little more time now.

What does any of this have to do with "case gain" ? That's just a standard question used in an attempt to introvert people.

"Oh, you seem critical of LRH. Didn't you have any 'case gain'?"

That is besides the point. Read 'keeping Scientology Working'. And I would say, over-all, "read Hubbard," but you seem to have a problem navigating through the smoke and mirrors he placed there amongst the bits of truth.

You're in a tough spot. You've attached yourself to trickster guru, who - at this time - you seem unable to understand.

I've said often that I think there are some good things in Scientology - that's about as plainly as I can say it. But it was crafted by its founder as a trap. And that's the part you can't face up to.

Hubbard told people he was the SOURCE of Mankind's only hope. I don't buy it, but that's what he told people. It's "bad PR" to emphasize it too much. I know, but that's the way it is.

You probably just need some time. Things take time. A year from now you'll probably look at things differently.

You're just barely beginning to "sort out" the subject.
 
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RolandRB

Rest in Peace
Thanks very much Alan. I'd heard the story of Julia before, but good to get your account.

Without the Internet these stories would disappear and the CofS would succeed in their project of elevating LRH to perfect status.

I'm very interested to read that you had to use similar self-deception tactics as I did to stay in the CofS. I suppose we all did.

Looking back it beggers belief that we could have allowed such things to go on. Isn't it incredible that we hear stories on here of people recently leaving who all these years later experienced similar abuses?

All us from the fifties, sixties and seventies who knew LRH did these things and who left and stayed quiet are the ones that allowed Scn to continue to abuse and dramatise LRH's madness.

The urge for spiritual freedom must be terribly strong to allow us to tolerate what we did! :sad:

It seems to me it is more accepting an authority figure and having it reinforced by the other members of the social group you are in through peer pressure. Even though you didn't speak out and so allowed Scn to continue the abuse, you can take comfort in the idea that this is something that is maybe hard-wired into you as a human being. Groups are stronger than a collection of individuals so it makes evolutionary sense for humans to support a leader and form a group, even if that leader be an evil tyrant.
 

The Oracle

Gold Meritorious Patron
For the love of GOD!

Hubbard could never have given us the view he did without being exterior at some point. David Mayo talked of Hubbard's session data with limited information, I don't know if Hubbard was in recovery, what the circumstances were, there is such limited information about this, but I can tell you this, anyone on this list who graduated an HQS course had to have attested to the last auditing cycle on CCH's which was going exterior.

How could Hubbard have issued this as an EP, such a simple little action, if he had not gone exterior himself and told others how to?

I was exterior before I ever came into Scientology, from a heroin overdose.
Fully outside of my body. I don't need David Mayo to tell me about exteriorization or imply Hubbards issue with it while on a obvious medical handleing in the desert.
 

Alanzo

Bardo Tulpa
It seems to me it is more accepting an authority figure and having it reinforced by the other members of the social group you are in through peer pressure. Even though you didn't speak out and so allowed Scn to continue the abuse, you can take comfort in the idea that this is something that is maybe hard-wired into you as a human being. Groups are stronger than a collection of individuals so it makes evolutionary sense for humans to support a leader and form a group, even if that leader be an evil tyrant.

What RolandRB is trying to say here is that Man is basically social.

All right.

Carry on....
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
It seems to me it is more accepting an authority figure and having it reinforced by the other members of the social group you are in through peer pressure. Even though you didn't speak out and so allowed Scn to continue the abuse, you can take comfort in the idea that this is something that is maybe hard-wired into you as a human being. Groups are stronger than a collection of individuals so it makes evolutionary sense for humans to support a leader and form a group, even if that leader be an evil tyrant.

Thanks for the answer Roland. You are right (eg Nazi Germany). Also I think there has to be a purpose that the leader taps into to bring the group along and ignore the evil.

In Hitler's case it was German resurection/restoration. In Hubbard's case he tapped into spiritual aspiration, helping people, etc.

It is very interesting to compare my wife and myself. She joined because she was looking for a spiritual group to join. Her loss when leaving was the loss of the group. I joined to help others become happier. My loss on leaving was that I could no longer help people in the way that I had learned.

Together we both were responsible for bringing thousands of people into Scn in the 70's.

Today we hear stories on here of second and third generation Scientologists coming out with tales of the RPF and Children's RPF and we watch poor robotic Tommy on Panorama dramatising LRH's training drills and psychosis and it is hard not to recognise our causation in those things! :sad:

Like Alan says 'cos of fear and overwhelm, we leavers stayed silent and let the madness continue.
 
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Veda

Sponsor
For the love of GOD!

Hubbard could never have given us the view he did without being exterior at some point. David Mayo talked of Hubbard's session data with limited information, I don't know if Hubbard was in recovery, what the circumstances were, there is such limited information about this, but I can tell you this, anyone on this list who graduated an HQS course had to have attested to the last auditing cycle on CCH's which was going exterior.

How could Hubbard have issued this as an EP, such a simple little action, if he had not gone exterior himself and told others how to?

I was exterior before I ever came into Scientology, from a heroin overdose.
Fully outside of my body. I don't need David Mayo to tell me about exteriorization or imply Hubbards issue with it while on a obvious medical handleing in the desert.

HQS Course "exteriorization," on CCHs, only became inevitable when people were told they *would* be exterior doing that action. Most of the time it was pretty limp "exteriorization," and probably, in the average "Org," simply a state of self-convincing or wishful thinking, for most.

That said, IMO, "exteriorization," in some form, is probably as natural a state as wakefulness or sleep. It just happens, like the tide going in and out. Except that most don't remember it, as it occurs mostly, and briefly, during sleep, and it doesn't necessarily involve perception of the physical universe.

Hubbard sold "exteriorization" as a vague state of mind ("Oh, I feel exterior!"), and also as a dramatic out-of-body experience with vivid awareness of the physical universe. He didn't sell exteriorization with awareness of other planes of existence. No, he sold what every 10 year old wants: To be able to be invisible and to fly around, and in the physical universe.

And who wouldn't want to do that? What great fun!

Having (apart from Scientology) experienced - vividly, and knowingly, on at least one occasion - being outside the body, and experiencing, with delight,
such things as the tops of trees, with the sunlight illuminating the greenness of the leaves and radiating off the flat black slanting roofs of the houses - I have some subjective awareness of such a state.

But an isolated experience is not the same as "able to be exterior with full perception at will."

That's what Hubbard sold to people, and told people he had. There were many tip offs that it wasn't so.

For example, Hubbard's exasperated response to being asked - during the time that Ingo Swann was doing his remote viewing (around 1973) - why he didn't do remote viewing also? Why use the Guardians Office to spy on people with phone taps, lock picking, telescopic lenses, etc., when one could just exteriorize and look directly?

A little bit of his response (or reaction) to the question shows up in the confidential issue, 'Intelligence, Its Role', and it is an obvious question: why didn't Hubbard use his psychic abilities in "data gathering"?

Probably because, while Hubbard knew of such experiences, he could not achieve the state of "exteriorization with full perception."
 
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lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
For the love of GOD!

Hubbard could never have given us the view he did without being exterior at some point. David Mayo talked of Hubbard's session data with limited information, I don't know if Hubbard was in recovery, what the circumstances were, there is such limited information about this, but I can tell you this, anyone on this list who graduated an HQS course had to have attested to the last auditing cycle on CCH's which was going exterior.

How could Hubbard have issued this as an EP, such a simple little action, if he had not gone exterior himself and told others how to?

I was exterior before I ever came into Scientology, from a heroin overdose.
Fully outside of my body. I don't need David Mayo to tell me about exteriorization or imply Hubbards issue with it while on a obvious medical handleing in the desert.

I think you are being a little dogmatic TI. You can speak for your own case with authority, but how can you speak for LRH's case with equal authority? You can't actually know he went "exterior" in the same way that you did.

I was thinking about the differences of opinion expressed in this thread and realised that the different viewpoints expressed represent the different aspects of LRH' personality, based upon what I know of him.

He dedicated a huge part of his life to develop Scn. Some are grateful

He lied fairly regularly. Some think he was a con-man liar.

He wrote lovely poetical prose about mankind and man's aspirations. Some think he was the greatest friend man has ever had.

He wrote bitter bile about those he believed were his enemies. Some think he was psychotic.

He used physical punishment and threats to control people. Some think he was a demonic sadist.

He offered a hope to people. Some think this was beautiful.

Every viewpoint is right, because each is an aspect of his complex personality.

I hope no one opinion of him holds sway and silences all the other viewpoints. The truth consists of many different facts.
 

Veda

Sponsor
I think you are being a little dogmatic TI. You can speak for your own case with authority, but how can you speak for LRH's case with equal authority? You can't actually know he went "exterior" in the same way that you did.

I was thinking about the differences of opinion expressed in this thread and realised that the different viewpoints expressed represent the different aspects of LRH' personality, bassed upon what I know of him.

He dedicated a huge part of his life to develop Scn. Some are grateful

He lied fairly regularly. Some think he was a con-man liar.

He wrote lovely poetical prose about mankind and man's aspirations. Some think he was the greatest friend man has ever had.

He wrote bitter bile about those he believed were his enemies. Some think he was psychotic.

He used physical punishment and threats to control people. Some think he was a demonic sadist.

He offered a hope to people. Some think this was beautiful.

Every viewpoint is right, because each is an aspect of his complex personality.

I hope no one opinion of him holds sway and silences all the other viewpoints. The truth consists of many different facts.

Hubbard was complex, but he had *definite priorities*. He operated according to certain patterns.

Some things were primary, some were secondary. Just look at how he designed the subject of Scientology, and how he designed the organization of Scientology.
 

lionheart

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think the saddest thing about LRH was his failure to apply the simple basics of the subject to himself. (such as the grades tech)

I wonder if when he wrote the wonderful theta stuff that he genuinely believed it. Unfortuantely he never conquered his agressive opposition to his enemies real or imagined and so the next day after writing something like "recognition of the rightness of the being" he got some report of a staff member failure or a bad press report and he flipped into his unhandled psychosis and issued a GO Black PR issue or wrote the bragging KSW.

Just a thought. Maybe those complex aspects of his personality were all true. Like all the rest of us. But unlike some of us who learned to balance them, either with Scn tech or something else, maybe he never did and flipped between them like a pinball.

One thing I know for certain from his tapes (eg study tapes) is that he was a man who liked to brag and show off. Therefore Alan's story of his description to the Hubbard poopers of his cleverness in "seeing" the ferry he believed to be sailing past the windows rings true.

I know he threatened and used fear to control people and attain "standard Class VIII tech". I know he overboarded them to improve their tech application. :roflmao:

I don't know he ever went "exterior".
 

Romuva

Patron Meritorious
I disagree with some of the ideas of Hubbards personality.He was a monster
in the making.Given the right environment and circumstances,he would of
been another Stalin or Hitler.He couldn't murder people because he would of
gone to prison.

It was his gross lack of concern and compassion that disturbs me the
most.I believe alot of this was formed in his childhood and gradually became
worse as he got older.There seem to be similiarities with other people that
became totalitarian dictators.

The overboards and other abuses in COS.Disconnection policy,RPF.
Sure somebody could say"it wasn't a concentration camp or gulag,nobody
died like that" but is there much difference when there are people praising
or giving great thanks to Hubbard about their "wins" when people were
being sent to the RPF or some other abuse and people praising Stalin
or Hitler when people were dying and starving to death because of their
policies.

There are Russians to this day that still think Stalin was the greatest man
that ever lived and 4 of my cousins died from disease and starvation because
of this evil prick.

I just wonder if a restrained Stalin or hitler was somebody that threw a child
in a chain locker or threw people overboard who couldn't swin?

anyway,nothing but my opinion.
 
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