Standard Tech (Hooray!) and Squirrel Tech (boo hiss)

TR'SIN

Patron with Honors
Yay Paul

:clap: Sometimes I read your posts and I don't have a clue of what point you are trying to make. Today I have a real grip on it and I am glad to say I have many agreements.

I've audited 100's of hours of Book 1 - loved it. Did lots as intro auditing as it was illegally reg'd in 80's - 25 hr blks to newbies.

Trained to Class IV auditor and C/S and as a staff intern got the pleasure of auditing everyone the C/S would throw at me, staff and public, for the purpose of making me a good C/S. So yeah 1,000's of hrs of auditing would give one a whole different level of understanding of "workable technology".

Another point to this is the idea we would use this "Tech" until something better came along. And who knows better than all the people on the research level in the early days that the "Tech" continued to evolve.

You also gave us the side by side look at the specifics changes in the 2007 Basic Books that point out some of the more recent clarifications are in fact that - clarifying. Thanks for not being a Know-it-all and sharing.:coolwink:

Thanks for posting and I promise to pay more attention.:eyeroll: In the meantime my 2-way comm buddy and I meet for lunch and natter for awhile share new ideas, get off BPC over a couple of beers. Is that Out-Tech?:coolwink::coolwink::coolwink:
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Very interesting topic!

If the only tech in use is itsa — where the pc just talks about what's bugging him — then yes, to a large extent that is true. But if the tech is more advanced than that, like, for instance, oh I don't know, maybe Rub & Yawn :))), then the listening aspect of the session becomes far less important. Almost all of the Rub & Yawn auditing that occurs is done by my automated applications where there is precisely zero listening involved, although the pc can take notes or talk to the wall as needed. From my experience it seems that if the person follows the instructions and is dealing with a hot topic then results will be obtained.

I have a purely itsa application (Rogerian therapy at www.robocounsellor.com) that also seems to work on fairly hot topics (it won't really work on something mild), and again there is totally zero listening involved.

Writing in a journal can be quite therapeutic. Again there is zero listening involved. Posting on ESMB can be very therapeutic too.

I think the therapeutic part is sorting things out for oneself enough to express them coherently in words, and also revisiting the events out there instead of inside one's mind (even if only five seconds later) in reading the words one has just written. So, much (not all) of the skill in listening really comes down to not interrupting!

Hubbard's standard tech idea from the Magic of the Communication Cycle that it takes a live being on the other end of the comm line in order for the pc to discharge anything is just bullshit, as shown by the examples above, in fact any of the successes from my automated (Robot) auditing applications. It's even shown as bullshit by anyone who has discharged stuff using Self Anaysis lists by themselves.

Paul

I just stumbled upon this thread. It is an all encompassing topic which many of us have pondered. This is the first attempt I have encountered which tries to sort it out and establish some agreements.

I agree with what La La said about good auditors getting results somewhat independently of what formal process is run. Paul's comments on this phenomena also make a lot of sense. I agree very much that writing in a Journal or writing on ESMB can be very therapeutic. Also Paul's last paragraph about needing a live terminal at the other end of the comm cycle listening in order for someone to discharge any charge seems very true to me.

Doesn't Hubbard himself state that case gain can come from 3 sources, processing, education or changing one's environment?

I have noticed a new type of occurance on ESMB where individuals routinely give sessions by telephone with no meter being needed and the phone practitioner doing his own CSing and keeping a minimal amount of admin. Processes are taken from a number of sources, some from Hubbard's materials, some from Alan Walter's materials, some from other sources. Such practitiioners claim routine wins and have people writing them success stories and I have no doubt that gains are being made this way.

I would not choose this route for myself but do not begrudge others for doing this and having success with it. I do wonder what happens if something goes wrong. I haven't heard an instance of things going wrong yet. Does the practitioner have a correction list or just use a good comm cycle to correct or is their a need to bring in another practitioner?

I tend to agree with Hubbard's comment that any auditing is better than no auditing so if people are getting wins using this method, more power to them.

For me, there is an enormous amount of case gain available in engaging in participation on an open forum such as ESMB. I compare interacting with others on ESMB with all the years of training I engaged in with the Church. Even though the Church charges substantial fees and ESMB is free to use and the Church is supposedly using actual Hubbard sources only, I find that the panel discussion produces orders of magnitude more case gain than studying inside the Church. In the discussion board environment, you get to hear a variety of viewpoints, plus you get to state your own beliefs. In C of S you hear only LRH's viewpoint and if you do not agree with it you are sent to word clearing and perhaps on to Ethics. As Purple Haze has stated, panel discussion enables we participants to assist each other in running out the 3rd Dynamic engram.
Lakey
 

Baloo

Patron
So what you're saying is that some brainwashing is better than no brainwashing. I'm sure you agree with Hubbard about other things but anyone who gives a rat's ass is retarded.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I have noticed a new type of occurance on ESMB where individuals routinely give sessions by telephone with no meter being needed and the phone practitioner doing his own CSing and keeping a minimal amount of admin. Processes are taken from a number of sources, some from Hubbard's materials, some from Alan Walter's materials, some from other sources. Such practitioners claim routine wins and have people writing them success stories and I have no doubt that gains are being made this way.
I have an entire blog devoted to this subject of distance auditing (and training), iCans. It is at http://icanspage.wordpress.com.

I would not choose this route for myself but do not begrudge others for doing this and having success with it. I do wonder what happens if something goes wrong. I haven't heard an instance of things going wrong yet. Does the practitioner have a correction list or just use a good comm cycle to correct or is their a need to bring in another practitioner?

I'll answer this for myself. Others may find parts of it useful. This is from the Troubleshooting Add-on for my robot applications:
The Troubleshooting Add-On is for your use when a PaulsRobot session has not been going well from the outset and you have not been able to fix it. If a session had been going along fine and then started going badly, use the in-session "Don't want to continue" option first. What is involved with the Troubleshooting Add-On is:

1. End the current bogged session.

2. Get up, leave the house, and have a good walk around outside looking at things in the environment (trees, houses, the sky etc.) until you feel somewhat better, at least for now. While walking around try and keep your attention on the things you are looking at or listening to outside right now and not so much on your internal thoughts or feelings.

3. Look over the instructions for the PaulsRobot module you were using to make sure you were doing the session procedure correctly. Read any relevant PaulsRobot FAQs too.

4. If no fix yet, get ready for a troubleshooting session, preferably as soon as possible after the one that didn't go so well but try not to leave it over 24 hours. This means make sure you are:
*well-rested and not tired
*well-fed and not hungry
*not under the influence of drugs or alcohol
*relatively free from distractions (no urgent chore you should be doing, no kids or pets running around, no sudden traffic noises, no people looking over your shoulder, etc.)
*fairly willing to have a session from PaulsRobot and follow the instructions as given

5. If the issue is not resolved yet, do a PaulsRobot Core session as the first troubleshooting session action. Use the regular Rub & Yawn procedure, including the 6-direction technique, to thoroughly cover the period of your life since the last good session. Do not quickie this step. The idea is to clear up all the charge (harmful emotional and mental energy) between when you were last doing well in session and now. Include the bogged session, but note that the main reason for the bog may well lie earlier than the point you realized it wasn't going well. If you have never had a good session, start from a point in your life when you were doing well. If you have never had a point in your life when you were doing well, start from the best point you can find.

6. If no fix yet, and you have honestly done all the previous steps thoroughly, do the PaulsRobot Repair List in session for the next troubleshooting session, including doing the session actions specified. This list includes possible reasons for trouble in session that you might not have considered.

7. Do any further out-of-session actions as indicated in your troubleshooting session(s).

8. If still no resolution, try a different PaulsRobot module or seek professional help.​

My somewhat-informed opinion is that absolutely no-one follows this sequence! This is despite additional instructions that most problems are fixed by the earlier parts of this troubleshooting procedure, and not by the Repair List.

Live practitioners have the huge advantage of live comm with their clients, but the troubleshooting procedure I laid out should cover almost all of it.

Paul
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
I'm just curious!

So what you're saying is that some brainwashing is better than no brainwashing. I'm sure you agree with Hubbard about other things but anyone who gives a rat's ass is retarded.

Baloo, I am just curious what your philosopy is. Do you feel one should just play the cards they are dealt and live life without attempting to learn anything from outside sources? Are you against drilling your mind so as to be sharper, have quicker reaction times, etc? Do you belleve in taking drugs to expand your mind? How about regular therapy as received from a Psychologist or Psychiatrist? I am just interested in and trying to find out more about what your beliefs are, if any, in the field of self imporvement or self enlightenment. Please advise.
Lakey
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
I had no idea that you had done all this work

I have an entire blog devoted to this subject of distance auditing (and training), iCans. It is at http://icanspage.wordpress.com.



I'll answer this for myself. Others may find parts of it useful. This is from the Troubleshooting Add-on for my robot applications:
The Troubleshooting Add-On is for your use when a PaulsRobot session has not been going well from the outset and you have not been able to fix it. If a session had been going along fine and then started going badly, use the in-session "Don't want to continue" option first. What is involved with the Troubleshooting Add-On is:

1. End the current bogged session.

2. Get up, leave the house, and have a good walk around outside looking at things in the environment (trees, houses, the sky etc.) until you feel somewhat better, at least for now. While walking around try and keep your attention on the things you are looking at or listening to outside right now and not so much on your internal thoughts or feelings.

3. Look over the instructions for the PaulsRobot module you were using to make sure you were doing the session procedure correctly. Read any relevant PaulsRobot FAQs too.

4. If no fix yet, get ready for a troubleshooting session, preferably as soon as possible after the one that didn't go so well but try not to leave it over 24 hours. This means make sure you are:
*well-rested and not tired
*well-fed and not hungry
*not under the influence of drugs or alcohol
*relatively free from distractions (no urgent chore you should be doing, no kids or pets running around, no sudden traffic noises, no people looking over your shoulder, etc.)
*fairly willing to have a session from PaulsRobot and follow the instructions as given

5. If the issue is not resolved yet, do a PaulsRobot Core session as the first troubleshooting session action. Use the regular Rub & Yawn procedure, including the 6-direction technique, to thoroughly cover the period of your life since the last good session. Do not quickie this step. The idea is to clear up all the charge (harmful emotional and mental energy) between when you were last doing well in session and now. Include the bogged session, but note that the main reason for the bog may well lie earlier than the point you realized it wasn't going well. If you have never had a good session, start from a point in your life when you were doing well. If you have never had a point in your life when you were doing well, start from the best point you can find.

6. If no fix yet, and you have honestly done all the previous steps thoroughly, do the PaulsRobot Repair List in session for the next troubleshooting session, including doing the session actions specified. This list includes possible reasons for trouble in session that you might not have considered.

7. Do any further out-of-session actions as indicated in your troubleshooting session(s).

8. If still no resolution, try a different PaulsRobot module or seek professional help.​

My somewhat-informed opinion is that absolutely no-one follows this sequence! This is despite additional instructions that most problems are fixed by the earlier parts of this troubleshooting procedure, and not by the Repair List.

Live practitioners have the huge advantage of live comm with their clients, but the troubleshooting procedure I laid out should cover almost all of it.

Paul

I had no idea that you had done all this work and all of this existed. I will check it out. It is quite impressive that you have done all this.
Lakey
 

RogerB

Crusader
I had no idea that you had done all this work and all of this existed. I will check it out. It is quite impressive that you have done all this.
Lakey

Ahh, yes Lakey! There is life beyond "The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973" :D

Rog
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
If you have something to say to me, please say it.

Ahh, yes Lakey! There is life beyond "The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973" :D

Rog

Rog, old buddy, if you have something to say to me, please say it. I have no back off on hearing if you think I am wasting my time and talent on that thread. One thing I did get handled in my Scientology auditing is my Service Fac. I just don't have one.

I have been posting a bit on a non ESMB thread where Vinaire is very active and Geir Isene is the host.

I was done with the Apollo thread around November 15th last year. I had told the Apollo story and my CCLA story and announced I was ending the thread. Sweetness and Light encouraged me to go on saying I had a lot more to say and was still evolving. That turned out to be sound advice. Next, Carmelo came on my lines and encouraged me to continue, saying that I had a nice writing style which communicated well to the public. His main interrest was that we were getting about 250 to 300 views per day and he told me that we could offer a forum for people actively involved with the tech. He told me he had powerful comm lines and could bring a lot of big opinion leaders onto our thread and we could provide a forum for them.

He did just that, bringing you over, Roger, and also Dart, Ted, Diana Class VIII, Leon, Heidrun Beer and some others. I was going to stay out of the tech discussions because I am not all that well versed in it. I was to use my writing talent to get more readers. Carmelo also had the ability to get readers coming at things from a totally different perspective and a different writing style, different tastes, etc.

The plan was to provide a forum where you opinion leaders could get your message out to a larger forum than you had previously been reaching. I have faithfully dedicated myself to doing just what Carmelo and I set out to do. It wasn't just to fart around and clown around, there was a purpose to all of this and it was duty motivated on the 4th Dynamic.

It turned out it was a lot of fun, I met up with some Opinion Leaders, met Purple Haze and filled in my knowledge about the earliest days at CC, wrote a story about CC history which had never existed before. So Rog, I wrote a letter to the Australian Senate, I am paricipating on Geir Isene's thread about the origin's of Life and the Universe and I am backing up Paul on this worthwhile thread so if there is something more specific you think I should be doing then please tell me straight up. Mostly likely, if you recommend it, I will end up doing it.
Lakey
 
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Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
I still see lots of "Standard Tech" comments around the place. For those who haven't read this. . . .

Paul
 

Stat

Gold Meritorious Patron
Another humble opinion.

It's either one really cares about another or not. The rest will follow accordingly.
 
I think that a good counsellor will give good results and a bad one will screw the person up whatever the tech is being used. TR's and fake interest don't make a bad listener any better. I've had chats with random people on trains that gave me more benefit than hours of drug run down from someone who wanted to be somewhere else. It's not saying the right thing at the right time, it's having someone who actually cares about what you say, really hearing and understanding what you have said that counts. Weather there's any validity to the tech itself I have no idea, standard or squirrel, no idea what I had and from whom, but I can tell you which auditors actually listened and which ones just went through the motions.

Hoo Boy, there's a whole lotta truth there in what you said, Auntie La La! Big hugs! :happydance:
 
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