Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley

[Mark A. Baker]

Scientology does not care about critics of scientology, scientology doesnt care about being a called a cult, we once thought it was whether a guy could talk about xenu...but now, 20 years later, the ONLY thing they care about and..which is the line in the sand for osa operatives, is whether or not it is a religion. ...

And at least as importantly, Arnie, being religious in character is no proof of not being fraudulent. Religions have been doing fraud for millenia.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Veda]

And at least as importantly, Arnie, being religious in character is no proof of not being fraudulent. Religions have been doing fraud for millenia.


Mark A. Baker

The point is that Scientology is not religious in character, and its claim to be so is fraudulent.

By the way, do you think you're accomplishing anything - in your silly multi-colored posts - by repeatedly calling those who post on ESMB "angry," etc., as in "irrational," while at the same time lecturing them on proper behavior?

 

[Mark A. Baker]

The point is that Scientology is not religious in character, and its claim to be so is fraudulent.

By the way, do you think you're accomplishing anything - in your silly multi-colored posts - by repeatedly calling those who post on ESMB "angry," as in "irrational," while at the same time lecturing them on proper behavior?

Umm . . . because I feel like it ?


Mark A. Baker

 

[Veda]

Umm . . . because I feel like it ?


Mark A. Baker

I didn't ask, why are you doing it; I asked, "Do you think you're accomplishing anything" by doing it.

"It" being the repeated characterization of posters on ESMB as angry, as hateful, as irrational, etc. What do you think you're accomplished by doing that?

 

[Magoo]

The bottom line is this:

The "church" of $cientology wants to be thought of as a "real religion".
They told me so when I was volunteering with them, in OSA, in PR.
It's a MAJOR goal of theirs.

The "church" of $cientology couldn't be farther from what the average
person thinks is a religion. I'm not saying ALL other religions are great,
as many have their own problems, too. BUT___I think it's VERY important
to understand the difference in a CULT and a Religion.

Scientology---the "church" of $cientology IS a CULT: Period.
The FACT that they are a *total* business..charging for EVERY
SINGLE LEVEL_________Is disgusting that they have tax exemption.
Follow the $$$$$_____There is where they'll get snagged up...just like
Al Capone did, too.

You can call me, Jim, if you want. I was "in" for 30 years and escaped
out in July of 2000.

My best

Tory/Magoo
www.youtube.com/ToryMagoo44
(818) 588-3044

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Arnie,

I don't think it is fair to accuse me of spreading OSA's lines about Scientology. What specifically do you have in mind? The only thing I can think of is me stating that I think it is a religion. That, however, does not tell us whether or not it is a fraud. Please do not confuse me with other academics, whether Gordon or Massimo or whoever. I am my own person. I have a long track record of speaking against various cult groups. I have been an expert witness in civil and criminal trials against some groups/individuals who used their religion in a fraudulent way. I have been threatened physically for my views against certain religions as well as threatened legally.

Jim, I'm glad to hear you say this, not that I'm glad to hear that you've been threatened, but because it helps me to get a handle on where you are coming from, and how grounded you are in reality. I am delighted to have you on the board, not only has it sparked a great discussion but it helps us to see and understand the Academic perspective on COS and similar "shady" groups more. I wish we could get some more academics, journalists and law enforcement officers openly on the board expressing their viewpoints, too! Some are here but not openly so, as you are. You get major props from me for doing so!

I understand the point of view (even though I do not hold it myself) that once people have adopted Scientology as their religion, even though done under a fraudulent basis, then a possible Academic point of view is to consider it as a religion. I will go so far as to concede that for those people who hold those beliefs about it, it is a religion to them. I also feel that they and their families and friends need to be educated about the fraudulent aspects of it, for the protection of the general public from the actions of Cult members, mainly OSA operatives and their minions.

Please be patient with us all. Some of us have been more injured by OSA than others here. Keep in mind that you are talking to cult victims and survivors who often do have a rather large personal ax to grind. To them, this discussion is not academic, it is intensely personal! They have a right to their anger and every right to be suspicious of the motives of anyone who "forwards the enemy line", the enemy in this case being OSA operatives. It's also important not to let that shut down the conversation, which is just what OSA wants to have happen! Please try not to take it personally. Keep talking, everybody!

I think it is also important when talking with anyone about Scientology to early take the measure of to what extent their considerations about the subject have been manipulated or influenced by the actions of OSA.

There is an organized effort by COS to influence and involve opinion leaders in all areas of life to be pro-COS, as part of policy, this is why there are Celebrity Centers and all the front groups which work with law enforcement, business and religious leaders and elected officials on various "causes". The main goal and purpose is to make COS seem more acceptable and legitimate in the eyes of the general public and with authorities than it would be without their influence. I think this is in part the process that Arnie is referring to when he brings up the "repeater technique", which I'm sure you are already aware of. Call it a religion often enough and it will be accepted to be so, despite all evidence to the contrary. Seems to have worked for them to a very great extent in this country, which is why some of us insist on calling it a Cult, to counteract that.

There is an old saying on this board that you have not really arrived here until somebody accuses you of being OSA... It does happen to Newbies, it happened to me! So consider it a bit of a rite of passage, and don't take too much umbrage at it. Also I think some members here are rightly probing to understand just what your viewpoints are and how best to enlighten you, if and where it is needed!

I do think that possibly Arnie and others (although I am not speaking for them) might be exasperated with the way that OSA's lies about Scientology have seemingly penetrated Academia, members of the Justice system, law enforcement and our elected officials.

For example:
Human trafficking is addressed as being a serious problem which is investigated by all of the above when it comes to sex workers or migrant farm workers or sweat-shop factory workers, but not when it comes to COS Sea Org members. Why? Because they are considered to be "religious" volunteers, not laborers, and so protective labor laws evidently do not apply to them. As if by joining a "religious group" (or Cult) they give up their constitutional or human rights.

Keep in mind that occasionally when we write, we are not only directly addressing a statement by a person on a specific issue, but sometimes we are also addressing the lurkers... all those who are reading here invisibly without joining, including OSA operatives, other former Cult members too intimidated to speak out about what they experienced yet, and the interested general public who may have a friend or loved one "in" the Cult to this day. Also we sometimes address our remarks to those unfamiliar with COS except for the Cult propaganda line about it who may be considering joining up themselves. We write to inform and persuade in addition to continuing the conversational topic. I myself frequently swing for the fences (baseball analogy for our foreign readers, meaning to slightly overreach in an effort to hit a home run out of the ball park) with my posts meant to reach and move the lurkers, in addition to directly communicating with my fellow posters on a thread.

Now guys, Jim asked to see Ron's affirmations...can we oblige him?

 

[Lermanet_com]

I have a copy annotated by Ulf Brettstam, a clinical psychiatrist...confirming hubbard as a paranoid schizophrenic...

give me a moment...

you see lermanet got too big for a search engine... there are 15000 files

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

The point is that Scientology is not religious in character, and its claim to be so is fraudulent.

By the way, do you think you're accomplishing anything - in your silly multi-colored posts - by repeatedly calling those who post on ESMB "angry," etc., as in "irrational," while at the same time lecturing them on proper behavior?

"Angry" is the new "Hater".

"Hater" was the new "SP"

"SP" was the new "1.1"

"1.1" was the new "Communist"

"OSA" was the new "GO"

Etc, etc, etc.......

This is Hubbardism 101. Got a problem because people have caught on to your spinning propaganda lies? No problem, just change the words.

Mark knows better than to call people 1.1 or SP's. Or haters--Indies copyrighted that one.

So let's give Mark credit for at least trying.

It's a shame you blew the whistle on his multicolored "angry" marketing scheme so quickly, he only got about a week's worth of use out of it.

Mark, go back to your Thesaurus. There are plenty of other words you can try.

 

[Lermanet_com]

The Admissions of L Ron Hubbard, evaluated by a Clinical Psychiatrist (In Sweden)

(The commentary is priceless, this is a MUST read document, it is too long to post here, this doc is also linked from her own pages on her Narconon page, Ulf has helped tremendously fighting narconon in sweden feel to quote you favorite excerpts)

UB: SUMMARY

There is little question about LRH suffering from paranoic
schizophrenia at the time he wrote the above. Predominant symptoms are
auditive and likely visual hallucinations together with numbed emotions
, suicidal thoughts , extremely low selfworth, impotence , thought
disturbances and problems with articulation and memory. His fatigue and
indolence together with the anhedonia is the typical low energy , low
vigilance and numbed emotions found in the domaine of so called
negative symtoms in this disease . He is fighting a hard battle with
inner psychological conflicts, balancing between the depressed state
with suicidal thoughts and the Godlike, allmighty powerful
"chosen" one with special gifts and blessed with an inner
"Guardian". The Church of Scientology and its methods is merely the
reflection of this seriously sick mans inner world. Constantly on guard
against percieved critique and attacks from the hostile surrounding
environments. Obsessed with money , not only as a mean of survival but
as an instrument of power and evidence of success.

Ulf Brettstam
Senior psychiatrist

The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this
bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder [L. Ron
Hubbard]. The evidence portrays a man who has been virtually a
pathological liar when it comes to his history, background and
achievements. The writings and documents in evidence additionally
reflect his egoism, greed, avarice, lust for power, and vindictiveness
and aggressiveness against persons perceived by him to be disloyal or
hostile."

-- Judge Paul G. Breckenridge, Jr., 6/20/84 (Scientology v. Armstrong,
affirmed on appeal 232 Cal.App.3rd 1060, 283 Cal.Rptr. 917.)

 

[Outethicsofficer]

Jim, I'm glad to hear you say this, not that I'm glad to hear that you've been threatened, but because it helps me to get a handle on where you are coming from, and how grounded you are in reality. I am delighted to have you on the board, not only has it sparked a great discussion but it helps us to see and understand the Academic perspective on COS and similar "shady" groups more. I wish we could get some more academics, journalists and law enforcement officers openly on the board expressing their viewpoints, too! Some are here but not openly so, as you are. You get major props from me for doing so!

I understand the point of view (even though I do not hold it myself) that once people have adopted Scientology as their religion, even though done under a fraudulent basis, then a possible Academic point of view is to consider it as a religion. I will go so far as to concede that for those people who hold those beliefs about it, it is a religion to them. I also feel that they and their families and friends need to be educated about the fraudulent aspects of it, for the protection of the general public from the actions of Cult members, mainly OSA operatives and their minions.

Please be patient with us all. Some of us have been more injured by OSA than others here. Keep in mind that you are talking to cult victims and survivors who often do have a rather large personal ax to grind. To them, this discussion is not academic, it is intensely personal! They have a right to their anger and every right to be suspicious of the motives of anyone who "forwards the enemy line", the enemy in this case being OSA operatives. It's also important not to let that shut down the conversation, which is just what OSA wants to have happen! Please try not to take it personally. Keep talking, everybody!

I think it is also important when talking with anyone about Scientology to early take the measure of to what extent their considerations about the subject have been manipulated or influenced by the actions of OSA.

There is an organized effort by COS to influence and involve opinion leaders in all areas of life to be pro-COS, as part of policy, this is why there are Celebrity Centers and all the front groups which work with law enforcement, business and religious leaders and elected officials on various "causes". The main goal and purpose is to make COS seem more acceptable and legitimate in the eyes of the general public and with authorities than it would be without their influence. I think this is in part the process that Arnie is referring to when he brings up the "repeater technique", which I'm sure you are already aware of. Call it a religion often enough and it will be accepted to be so, despite all evidence to the contrary. Seems to have worked for them to a very great extent in this country, which is why some of us insist on calling it a Cult, to counteract that.

There is an old saying on this board that you have not really arrived here until somebody accuses you of being OSA... It does happen to Newbies, it happened to me! So consider it a bit of a rite of passage, and don't take too much umbrage at it. Also I think some members here are rightly probing to understand just what your viewpoints are and how best to enlighten you, if and where it is needed!

I do think that possibly Arnie and others (although I am not speaking for them) might be exasperated with the way that OSA's lies about Scientology have seemingly penetrated Academia, members of the Justice system, law enforcement and our elected officials.

Human trafficking is addressed as being a serious problem which is investigated by all of the above when it comes to sex workers or migrant farm workers or sweat-shop factory workers, but not when it comes to COS Sea Org members. Why? Because they are considered to be "religious" volunteers, not laborers, and so protective labor laws evidently do not apply to them. As if by joining a "religious group" (or Cult) they give up their constitutional or human rights.

Keep in mind that occasionally when we write, we are not only directly addressing a statement by a person on a specific issue, but sometimes we are also addressing the lurkers... all those who are reading here invisibly without joining, including OSA operatives, other former Cult members too intimidated to speak out about what they experienced yet, and the interested general public who may have a friend or loved one "in" the Cult to this day. Also we sometimes address our remarks to those unfamiliar with COS except for the Cult propaganda line about it who may be considering joining up themselves. We write to inform and persuade in addition to continuing the conversational topic. I myself frequently swing for the fences (baseball analogy for our foreign readers, meaning to slightly overreach in an effort to hit a home run out of the ball park) with my posts meant to reach and move the lurkers, in addition to directly communicating with my fellow posters on a thread.

Now guys, Jim asked to see Ron's affirmations...can we oblige him?

And now I completely understand why you are Sweetness and Light

 

[SchwimmelPuckel]

<snip> Now guys, Jim asked to see Ron's affirmations...can we oblige him?

I'd very much like to see the second half of the affirmations too.. But as far as I know Gerry don't have it. - The cult has it.. We need another 'insider' to do a bunk with it.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Well, let's show him what is known of them...

Thanks James!

 

[SweetnessandLight]

I love this short thread examining how important the meanings of words were to those getting "in":

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?18328-Be-an-executive-or-a-professor-or-a-minister

Starts out with Boojuum saying:
"Be an executive or a professor or a minister

I recently thought that one of the appealing pieces of cos was the job openings. With a few months of training, you could be more capable than a psychologist and treating patients. With a few weeks of training, you could be a manager or even an executive. With a few more months of training, you could be a professor. With a few days of training, you could be a minister with a title of Reverend. One could wear a tie to work and be someone important and respected.

For many of us, it was a big deal to be more than someone who worked at a restaurant or mowed lawns or painted houses.

Being at total cause over matter, energy, space, time, life, form and thought...well, that sounded pretty good as well.

The staff jobs sounded so great. The words, "executive", "reverend", "professor", sent a powerful image to me and helped to bring me into the fold.

Anyone else out there entranced by the positions offered?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I especially like this post by NeeKee:

"I had read DMSMH, like R6Basic, and wanted nothing more than to be an Auditor. What I didn't realize was that I already was (I delivered a session with VVGIs immediately after reading the book). It was nice to have a place to go where I felt I was needed and wanted, valued, with my own comm basket! While it might be fun to make jokes about it, it really was a nice break from being a fry cook and dishwasher."

This is so human, this wanting to be somebody important and respected...in several easy lessons, in only a couple of months...the need to belong... to have an "interesting" job to tell the folks back home about, that one was "an Executive" in "an Organization", this helps me to understand the trap even more.

Read the thread, everybody, it's only one page.

 

[degraded being]

I don't get requests for money or time from message board contributors.

Did someone say you did?

 

[RogerB]

I agree 100% with Roger. How's that for an unusual event?

God, now I'm off my food!

The shock of it is still reverberting . . . .

R

 

[NoName]

Well, let's show him what is known of them...

Thanks James!

The VV had a bunch of them up last week. I'm not sure if they're the old known ones, but I saw at least 1-2 I haven't seen before. Dunno if Tony O would be willing to share/help if he got anything new. But he did say it was gonna be the first of many releases last week.

 

[Veda]

Well, let's show him what is known of them...

Thanks James!

Why does anyone need to show a professional researcher and scholar something that can be found by simply doing a search on L. Ron Hubbard, Affirmations? Wouldn't you think he'd be able to find it himself?

http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/writings/ars/ars-2000-03-11.html

 

[NoName]

Why does anyone need to show a professional researcher and scholar something that can be found by simply doing a search on L. Ron Hubbard, Affirmations? Wouldn't you think he'd be able to find it himself?

http://www.gerryarmstrong.org/50grand/writings/ars/ars-2000-03-11.html

Fair enough, but most of us know that others exist but don't know where.

Also, there is no shortage of false info about LRH on the interwebs.I think it would be nice if those in the know were willing to vet some of the websites.

 

[Terril park]

2. Hugh Urban just wrote an article about LRH and Crowley in Novo Religio.

This available on line? If not where?

 

[Claire Swazey]

Did someone say you did?

I was having a discussion with you and with Helluvahoax about trusting other contributors, and, yes, you did bring up an hypothetical situation where something like that could happen.

Here's what you said:

And maybe you will be asked, in some way for money. A book?

So I answered the hypothetical.That's all it was. honest.