Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
Huh, Sharone?
Cannot imagine why you'd find that post objectionable. Seems odd to me.
Cannot imagine why you'd find that post objectionable. Seems odd to me.
Starting on ESMB Professor Jim Beverley
- Thread starter James Beverley
- Start date
Veda
Sponsor
Now that I have a little more time, I checked out the original request and it's for the full text. The answer, Professor Jim, is that the full text is probably floating around out there someplace, but hasn't surfaced yet. A big chunk of it is available on line, however.
Fair enough, back at ya
James Beverley
Patron
NoName
A Girl Has No Name
Jim and Terrill, this is the most info I have seen re Hugh Urban's recent publication. Tony O also speaks at lenght about the affirmations and posts some of them along side Crowley's statements, which makes for interesting reading:
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_and_4.php
Now I dunno where anything beyond Gerry Armstrong's can be found and vetted, but I would start here.
Edit: to answer your other question, tony made clear that the entire text of Urban's work is NOT currently available online.
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_and_4.php
Now I dunno where anything beyond Gerry Armstrong's can be found and vetted, but I would start here.
Edit: to answer your other question, tony made clear that the entire text of Urban's work is NOT currently available online.
Check with your local public library and see if they can get a copy of the article through interlibrary loan. A local university may subscribe to the journal.
Academic publishing being what it is, your alternative is to buy access to a PDF of the article or a print copy of the entire issue. I saw a price of $20 US for the entire issue and $12 US for the article alone (through JSTOR).
http://www.novareligio.org/
http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublication?journalCode=novareligio
Academic publishing being what it is, your alternative is to buy access to a PDF of the article or a print copy of the entire issue. I saw a price of $20 US for the entire issue and $12 US for the article alone (through JSTOR).
http://www.novareligio.org/
http://www.jstor.org/action/showPublication?journalCode=novareligio
NoName
A Girl Has No Name
Hopefully your library has a journal subscription, or maybe you can contact Urban directly to request a reprint?? That's fairly common practice in my area of academics.
Edit - DUH - just reread Jim's post. Sounds like he's read it, and had a separate question about the affirmations. The affirmations make an fairly prominent appearance in Tony Ortega's piece about Hugh Urban's article. Terrill was the one asking about where to read the article, and I'm not sure how it would go it he were to ask for a reprint..... Could be worth a shot.
Edit - DUH - just reread Jim's post. Sounds like he's read it, and had a separate question about the affirmations. The affirmations make an fairly prominent appearance in Tony Ortega's piece about Hugh Urban's article. Terrill was the one asking about where to read the article, and I'm not sure how it would go it he were to ask for a reprint..... Could be worth a shot.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
And unless that is based on a personal examination conducted by the psychiatrist in question it isn't worth the paper it's written on.
That is ... apart for entertainment purposes. I also believe hubbard was mentally ill, for what little that is worth, but what I think is the interesting question about your document is why this psychiatrist issued such a formal statement of diagnosis about an individual whom he most likely never had occasion to examine. Frankly it's not something normally seen as complying with medical ethics. When people are dead though there are fewer consequences to such practices.
Mark A. Baker
Claire Swazey
Spokeshole, fence sitter
Ulf's a very nice man. I used to converse with him on ARS. I'm with you in that I think you have to meet the person to do a diagnosis. But just to play devil's advocate, sometimes you can make a sort of preliminary assessment by reviewing someone's bio and/or writings.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
Well you are certainly correct in that we all do it in the normal course of living. However, it's a bit disquieting to say the least when a medical professional who presumably understands the ramifications of such loose talk about people's private medical histories and who accordingly should know better nonetheless engage in such conduct.
Definitely not a way of reassuring clients.
Mark A. Baker
Lermanet_com
Gold Meritorious Patron
And unless that is based on a personal examination conducted by the psychiatrist in question it isn't worth the paper it's written on.
I also believe hubbard was mentally ill, for what little that is worth, but what I think is the interesting question about your document is why this psychiatrist issued such a formal statement of diagnosis about an individual whom he most likely never had occasion to examine. Frankly it's not something normally seen as complying with medical ethics. When people are dead though there are fewer consequences to such practices.
Mark A. Baker
Thank you Mr Baker for your "expert" opinion of ' Ulf Brettstam,:
2000 - 2011 Assist. Chief of staff. Appointed expert in psychiatry by the National Board of Health and Wellfare, Specialist in General Psychiatry.
2008 - 2010 Developing course ” Psychiatry and Law” for residents in psychiatry with IPULS -Institute for the Professional Development of Physicians in Sweden
2011 Coordinator of course ”Psychiatry and Law” at the Psychiatric Clinic, Högland Hospital Eksjö. MORE HERE
Perhaps your zeal will carry over into a similar ( in multiple ways) 'unsound' (as you claim) psychiatric evaluation , I'm sure these guys would love to hear from you:
See this once classified, 1943 OSS psychiatric evaluation of Hitler, archived at the Cornell law library Donvan Collection:
Dr. Henry A. Murray
Analysis of the Personality of Adolph Hitler:
With Predictions of His Future Behavior and Suggestions
for Dealing with Him Now and After Germany's Surrender
go to page 26 HERE.
and if you goto page 26, you find that Adolph Hitler was also classed as a 'paranoid schizophrenic.'
I thought you'd like this post
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Crashed Alien
Patron with Honors
Lermanet_com,
I hope I am not butting in...
But I do not understand this bit - I cannot see how an "organization" can be measured as an individual...
That does not make much sense to me... Perhaps I am over-simplifying it, but I see an organization is a collection of individuals.
Would yo mind clarifying this point by telling me who you are saying is "clearly schizophrenic and paranoid"?
Thanks...
Crash
Lermanet_com
Gold Meritorious Patron
You would need to ask Judge Breckinridge... he is the Judge whose dog was found drown in his pool. His son contacted me, in 95 after my name was in the newspapers a lot, and he was STILL scared of scientology... correction, that was judge Swearenger's dog... oops...
Wait, i understand, now..
Scientologists pride themselves by doing what they describe as "duplicating source" that is, emulating Hubbard....
Scientology creates a being without conscience, The Freedom FROM, is the freedom from human emotional reactions, a Freedom from conscience, The Freedom TO, is the Freedom to destroy your enemies...
Also, in Canada, in 1994, upheld by Can Supreme court in 97 the organization AS an organization was found guilty of "Breach of the public trust" (That's a nice proper English way to say the word fraud)... google casey hill scientology
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SchwimmelPuckel
Genuine Meatball
Crashed Alien
Patron with Honors
Lermanet_com,
Thanks for your reply... Still confused though... Who are you talking about? I think that speaking about an organisation as an individual is a bit mad in itself as it is a virtual entity really (no offence)...
There has to be a real person or persons behind it - The person or persons you are actually referring to...
Unless I have missed the point...
Crash
Lermanet_com
Gold Meritorious Patron
That quote was Judge Breckenridge speaking, I believe it was in one of Gerry Armstrongs cases, Judge Breckenridge would have read all of The Admissions or Affirmations...that I linked earlier with an evaluation from a psychiatrist.
I was a scientologist, so i have no problem getting it that "The organization is clearly schizophrenic and paranoid' that is the way they are, as an organization, the policies enforce it, the tech creates it...each person is a clone, running the same program.. written by hubbard for them to run..
Psychiatrist Joost Meerloo wrote a book called RAPE OF THE MIND, read the Chapter called "Totalia" because "Totalia" is a condensation of LRH Policies. (Actually the entire book) See http://www.lermanet.com/scientology/ then open RAPE OF THE MIND,there is a contents page...
There is man I met who is the source for the Ackerman notes,(see this old page) which I found in a box of exhibits for trial in RTC vs Lerma in 95, Ackerman was hubbard's literary agent, 15 years later I met that man, - I started to tell him how wonderful Joost Meerloo's Rape of the MiND was as an analogy for scientology, he smiled, and produced a copy of his own annotated, filled with HCO Policy references....scribbled on hundreds of little tabs...
The scary thing is, Joost Meerloo was writing from his experiences having been detained by the Nazis.
The organization still calls people with no prior contact with scientology, "RAW MEAT" and Hubbard would always give people a "WELL DONE" if they did things really well... makes yah think... nawwww... couldn't be....
or could it?
I was visiting Paulette Cooper at her island beach house, in 1996 (much of her story about her past was featured recently by Mr Ortega at the VV) and one night face to face I asked her:
Arnie: Paullete, tell me, why did you choose to go after scientology, to write The scandal of scientology?"
Paulette: arnie, I grew up in an orphanage, where I remember as a small child being so cold that I would look forward to peeing on myself to feel the warmth.."
arnie: Why were you in an orphanage?
Paulette; Because my parents died in auschwitz..
Arnie (silent...I was speechless)
Paulette: Arnie, I recognized in the scientology the same spectre that killed my parents.
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MostlyLurker
Patron Meritorious
And unless that is based on a personal examination conducted by the psychiatrist in question it isn't worth the paper it's written on.
I also believe hubbard was mentally ill, for what little that is worth, but what I think is the interesting question about your document is why this psychiatrist issued such a formal statement of diagnosis about an individual whom he most likely never had occasion to examine. Frankly it's not something normally seen as complying with medical ethics. When people are dead though there are fewer consequences to such practices.
Mark A. Baker
You are entitled to you opinion but I believe personal examination is not a prerequisite for a diagnosis when a wealth of factual information and behavioral evidence exist. In fact it may also be a more objective diagnosis that one based only on factual evidence as opposed to personal suggestion.
People can be judged (and analyzed) by their actions, by listening to their talks and by getting reports from witnesses. As a parallel the Case Supervisor can do a better job in an Ivory tower than by getting personally and emotionally involved with his preclears.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
I've never known a psychiatrist who would agree with you. And fwiw I am bipolar and have encountered a few on a professional basis. Identifying possibly symptomatic behavior remotely and on the basis of secondary reports is common enough. But a full on diagnostic attribution without examination? Reckless and potentially disastrous.
Mark A. Baker
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
That is a psychological profile not a diagnosis. Not the same thing at all, Arnie. It would be used for purposes of national intelligence assessment & analysis not patient evaluation & treatment.
Mark A. Baker
Commander Birdsong
Crusader
Scientology does not care about critics of scientology, scientology doesnt care about being a called a cult, we once thought it was whether a guy could talk about xenu...but now, 20 years later, the ONLY thing they care about and..which is the line in the sand for osa operatives, is whether or not it is a religion.
Because religion, or rather their religious cloaking, is their only defense
preventing them from being taken down tomorrow for FRAUD
From Blacks Law Dictionary:
Fraud: An intentional perversion of the truth for the purpose of inducing another in reliance upon it to part with some valuable thing or to surrender a legal right; a false representation of a matter of fact, whether by words ot conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of that which should have been disclosed, which deceives and is intended to deceive another so that he shall act upon it to his legal inquiry; anything calculated to deceive, whether by a single act or combination, or by suppression of truth, or suggestion of what is false, whether it be by direct falsehood or innuendo, by speech or silence, word of mouth, or look or gesture; fraud comprises all acts, omissions, and concealments involving a branch of legal or equitable duty and resulting in damage to another.
The Religious Cloaking described above was invoked by a Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, issued 12 February 1969 , on page 119 of the 1969 version of Volume 6 of the Hubbard Organization Executive Course ""All Orgs are now Churches" and "Stationary is to reflect fact than orgs are churches" and "All public literature must state that Scn is religious" It also states "This may or may not be publicly acceptable. This is NOT the point. It is a requisite defense."
Nota Bene; "All orgs are now churches" (Date is 1969)
"SCIENTOLOGISTS
DO NOT WORSHIP"
wrote Heber Jentszch, as President of the Church of Scientology International in a signed letter to Willis Carto's Liberty Lobby. (From the legal archives at Lermanet.com Exposing the CON)
i luv ya arnie, i greatly enjoyed the phone conversations we had a few years back. and i deeply appreciate the screwin' CoS gave you. if i had been auditing suzette and she told me she was planning to elope with you the disclosure would have never left the room
but, as you know, we're not in full agreement and you're not giving this quote from COHA an intelligent reading. no, it's not designed as a psychotherapy. using a mudpuddle as a fitting metaphor for "the mundane world", a psychotherapy is designed to get a person who is lying face down in a mudpuddle to roll over and lie face up. scientology, when it's materials are properly arrayed is designed to get a person to stand up and walk away from the mudpuddle. the other half is a matter of semantics. no it's not a religion in that a religion is commonly recognized as a set of beliefs and doctrines, rites and rituals, with a moral code and a pattern of behaviour. truth is, true christianity isn't a religion either.
it was not presented to me as a religion but "a nondenominational applied religious philosophy" and it properly is religious a word from the latin "legere" meaning "to bind" with the prefix "re-" it means "to bind back"; to return man to his natural oneness with TWIGTO (that which is greater than ourselves). CoS is fit for legal status as a religion. period.
no
i don't like the abuses. fact is those abuses were a big piece of the wrongful death of my bright beautiful first born son but i refuse to allow the desire of every cell in my body to go mcveigh on the CoSuckers to infect my own clarity of thought
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