Steve Hall's post on closed Indy Facebook group

[PirateAndBum]

A contentious problem is an opportunity for a spectacular resolution.

LOL, a problem you Mr Hall created!

Good to know they are winning... Fastest shrinking cult in the world.

 

[Emma]

Re: Hall posts a mea culpa (sorta)

But how can he say he had no idea about the Freezone? I had several websites online about the Freezone starting before the middle of 2004. Did he ever use a search engine in the 4 years between 2004-2008 and see what was online about Scientology? Jeez. He wouldn't have had to look far to find the Freezone, Clearbird, Prometheus Reports with the OT Levels etc. Even Scienowiki, started at the end of 2005.

He's lying. And it looks like it comes naturally.

 

[WildKat]

Steve Hall is a classic case of "White Knight" syndrome (I just made that up).

But it's when a true-blue Scientologist, who feels he has been a very good Scientologist and has taken the weight of the world on his shoulders, and has been losing sleep for many nights, and is trying to just make the world a better place and save the planet, and carry the torch for Ron, and wear all these hats, and all the while the dogs are nipping at his heels and calling him names, and why don't others care as much as he does, and why does he have to suffer these fools, and if he could just get others to get their ethics in, even if he has to SLAM them in, and slam in LRH policy .....and.....and..... ad nauseum.

He would probably be shocked to realize that David Miscavige has the same syndrome. And so does Marty and all the other "true to LRH guys who are working their hearts out day and night and no one really understands them except LRH".

This is your brain on KSW. This is cultic fanaticism at its finest.

 

[Smilla]

That's useless Steve.

You've got to mention the good roads and the weather!

Say it! Say it now!

No, no, no. I won't

Say it!

"The roads were good, and the weather was nice."

Say it again.

"The roads were good, and the weather was nice."

What you been smokin? You've just finished NOTS, fer Ron's sake! Yer makin us look like a cult!

Sorry Marty - I'll be a good thetan now.


[video=youtube;PbcctWbC8Q0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbcctWbC8Q0[/video]

 

[Terril park]

Given the tens of thousands who left worldwide at the time of the '80s, Mayo's "reach" was pretty damn good as it was.

Of course he wasn't personally responsible for all of the departures, but what happened to David and what he had to say was highly influential for a great many, especially among the most prominent leaders.


Mark A. Baker

Somewhere recently someone linked to an old Blog post of Marty
castigating Mayo.

His beef was that Mayo was calling Hubbard to testify and in some way attacking him.

This was on Marty's part a leap of illogic. I iether missed this completely
or didn't fully grok what was going on.

A key point was that it was the organisation Hubbard was head of that
instituted a 10 year legal battle against Mayo.

Per dianetic datums one presumes Mayo didn't want to roll over and die.

He did what he had to to stay alive.

Marty told me that he thought things should have terminated earlier as
someone had CO$ " Tits In a wringer".

Marty should try and reconcile with David IMO.

 

[Sindy]

Re: Hall posts a mea culpa (sorta)

Below is Steve Hall's "apology" to the FZ.

<snip>

The tl:dr version is "Sorry, it looks like I was wrong, but I actually wasn't and I guess you can still be on my team because I'm super".

Thoughtful

Ya know, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I take pains to make sure that I am not allowing myself to make rash judgments about people. Maybe it's my Libra characteristics (how squirrelly of me) where I need to make sure that everything is always balanced, and I have a hard time copping attitudes about people apparently even when it would be warranted -- like now.

My god these people (Marty, Steve, and various other Scientologists like the one that is currently sending me PMs on FB about how terrible Marty is) just make it so difficult.

I am now of the opinion that the die-hards, the ones that refuse to look at the truth about Ron and the insidious evil of much of the tech, are actually shit tons worse off than those still inside the cult and that is the bottom line. The ones still in haven't looked yet but these guys have had every opportunity to see the truth and they refuse. They are just so in denial and therefore nuts in that they cannot possibly be rational. It's fucking impossible.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... Marty should try and reconcile with David IMO.

Marty is a thug with a lot of blood on his hands and an absolute unwillingness to accept responsibility for his past (or present ) actions. He can't slough that off even if he has befuddled you.

No reconciliation will be possible until Rathbun fully makes amends for his past. Even Marty claims to believe that is the only possibility for a new beginning; witness his advocacy of orthodox views of "hubbard ethics procedures".

Of course, I can't speak for David Mayo, but that is what I would advise should he ask. And honestly, although David is an extraordinarily generous and loving individual perfectly willing to accept responsibility and extend forgiveness to others, he has little reason to "forgive and forget" the actions of Rathbun & his associates. Not all the damage done is confined to the distant past.

David has not done anything worthy of even mild censure, much less the persecution he has endured. Rathbun can make no such claim without sustaining open & widespread ridicule.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Smilla]

EP of audited NOTS in the Indy Zone. Actual session footage. (confidential.)

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZvDa1YznYY[/video]

 

[Jquepublic]

Marty is a thug with a lot of blood on his hands and an absolute unwillingness to accept responsibility for his past (or present ) actions. He can't slough that off even if he has befuddled you.

No reconciliation will be possible until Rathbun fully makes amends for his past. Even Marty claims to believe that is the only possibility for a new beginning.

Of course, I can't speak for David Mayo, but that is what I would advise should he ask. And honestly, although David is an extraordinarily generous and loving individual perfectly willing to accept responsibility and extend forgiveness to others, he has little reason to "forgive and forget" the actions of Rathbun & his associates. Not all the damage done is confined to the distant past.


Mark A. Baker

Thing is, Marty thinks he can make amends for what he's done by gunning for Miscavige. Don't get me wrong, Miscavige is a valid target as a cult leader in his own right, but hanging him doesn't do SHIT to make up for the things Rathbun himself has done. I don't care who wrote what in which book, the only way to make up for things you have done is to make up for things YOU have done, directly to the person or persons harmed.

 

[Jquepublic]

EP of audited NOTS in the Indy Zone. Actual session footage. (confidential.)

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZvDa1YznYY[/video]

Damn! I quit too soon.

I look good in green too!

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Thing is, Marty thinks he can make amends for what he's done by gunning for Miscavige. Don't get me wrong, Miscavige is a valid target as a cult leader in his own right, but hanging him doesn't do SHIT to make up for the things Rathbun himself has done. I don't care who wrote what in which book, the only way to make up for things you have done is to make up for things YOU have done, directly to the person or persons harmed.

Precisely.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Terril park]

Re: Hall posts a mea culpa (sorta)

Below is Steve Hall's "apology" to the FZ.

It might be just me, but this guy who I'd barely noticed or cared about for 4 years has all of a sudden become one of the most abhorent people I've ever "met".

The tl:dr version is "Sorry, it looks like I was wrong, but I actually wasn't and I guess you can still be on my team because I'm super".

Steve Hall
Message to APIS and the Freezone

A contentious problem is an opportunity for a spectacular resolution.

There was an ARC break. Some people got very busy applying a Scientology basic: communication. Soon reality was established and the President of the APIS, Michael Moore said some very noble things that were noble not just because they sounded good, but because they restored understanding. It is clear to me that he is clearly fit to be the President of the Association of Professional Independent Scientologists. And he is flanked by some people, like Roy Selby, who make one remember what the word “Scientologist” is really all about.

Michael provided amazing documents here that demonstrate the exposition of Miscavige crimes on behalf of the Freezone even back into the '80s.

When I came out of the Church in 2004 I had no idea what was on the outside. All contact with the outside world had been cut off for many years.

After studying what to do about the problem for the whole of 2008 I realized I had to stand up as a Scientologist and speak out while also getting the tech back into use. I took my first pc in 18 years into session the next day, and I started building Scientology-cult.com that evening.

Quite independently, Marty Rathbun came to the same conclusion. He didn't build on anything I did. We were not even in comm. I’d heard he was dead. I had only spoken to him once in my life, in early Dec 2003 when Miscavige ordered Marty down to the Cine Conference room where Mike Rinder and I had been working day and night for several months scripting videos for events. When IG Ethics came down to "slam me on the meter" and "get my ethics in" as DM ordered, it was so evident that Marty was just as clueless as me, and actually he was nice. He didn't do any ethics handling. I was shocked that he would violate a direct order from COB, since he was expected to turn me inside out. Instead he just asked me what happened. I told him that Mike and I had made some edits that Miscavige ordered, but that Miscavige hated the result. Marty smiled his trademark half smile, letting me know he understood. This was no ethics handling. He asked me what I was going to do and I told him. And that was it. This was only about three weeks before Marty left and I think truth was dawning. Instead of inspiring me with fear and dread, I found in Marty a friend. The interview lasted all of 5 minutes. It was the first time I had ever spoken to him and the last time until February 2009. Most of the time Marty was not even at the Int base; he was off putting out legal fires lit up by David McPyro.

So it was a complete surprise after finally getting up the nerve to speak out against Miscavige and crossing that line by officially attacking him in writing in December 2008 as a Scientologist named "Thoughtful," when I bumped into none other but Marty Rathbun, walking down the very same trail.

He also had set out to expose DM's crimes as a Scientologist while also auditing!

And I, for one, had no idea anyone else had *ever* walked down that trail before us because I didn't personally know anything about the Freezone. I figured out what had to be done on my own... well, actually with my wife's help and also with the help of Dan Koon with whom I discussed matters nearly daily throughout 2008.

It is a shame that proper introductions were never done between Independent Scientology and the Freezone, not even when Karry started this group. We all could have learned much about each other's similarities at the outset and bypassed some of the noise.

A number of times we Indies have heard, "But you guys are not the original Indies, we are." Today I can see that statement has a basis in fact. But as the Freezone played no part in cementing my own direction or resolve, just as I played no part in cementing Marty's direction and resolve, it sounded like someone was just trying to nullify our accomplishments by attributing our ideas and successes to others, and invalidating the personal pain we had endured to get here.

I had a number of close friends who did not make it. The suppression was too much. The betrayal too grand. One took his own life — Greg Bashaw, leaving a beautiful wife and son. Greg was my mentor as a copywriter. Another died after staying up all night working on David Miscavige's new $35 million mansion where 10 people work. He left a widow and young daughter in LA. Joe Harrison. He was a carpenter imported temporarily from PAC, not even Int base staff; and the suppression killed him. Then there was a 16-year-old girl who was decapitated in a car wreck involving an all hands late one night on the highway. I think it was a Tuesday night. Staff were conducting emergency preparations of the grounds for Miscavige's arrival the next morning. The girl’s mother witnessed the accident and was the person who found her daughter's severed head in the back seat of her car. All this happened next to my office at the Cine castle and the mother's screams ripped existence and redefined for me the meaning of pain. Then there was Judy Ferguson, a lonely friend who worked in CMU. She got cancer. I was going to hold a funeral service for her since I am an ordained minister, but when Miscavige found out he forbid anyone to leave post. Mary Sue Hubbard also died. I was in Diana Hubbard’s office when I found out. I spent a lot of time working with Diana writing scripts for David McSickness. "Not a word was spoken, the Church bells all were broken." Not a single *word* for the woman who had done more for Scientology than any other living human. Then were numerous others some who died horribly, like the teenage girl who had only been at the Int base for 2 months when she apparently committed suicide by grasping a 20,000 volt power line in an underground bunker on a Sunday morning in 2001. Her carbonized fist was still holding onto the line after they cut off the power. Then there was my own wife, whom hoped to have a child with. There was a time I thought surely she was pregnant, but she denied it. Not only would a daughter be the answer to my prayer, but it would be a swift ticket to a new life out side that hell hole, the best possible outcome. On Miscavige orders, however his staff coerced my wife to abort our child without even consulting me. I didn't get confirmation she had even been pregnant until 2008, when another woman told me of my ex-wife's secret abortion. The knowledge that my own child was killed on orders of David Miscavige makes my soul cry in a way that never stops.

But it's not because of what happened to me that I decided to expose DM's crimes. It's to protect others from similar deprivation, degradation and devastation. In Scientology we have a question we have all heard and answered a thousand times:

"Would you want someone else to have similar gains to yours?"

And the answer is always yes. In fact, that was the very reason I joined staff in the first place in 1979. But there's another side to the same coin.

"Would you want someone else to have similar pain to yours?"

And if the one can be answered “Yes,” WHO could not but answer the second “No”?

So I advocate doing both. I don’t think the job can be done any other way. And frankly, we need everyone’s help to do both.

The job is certainly not grim because we are winning.

I do see that the Freezone HAS distinguished themselves in the trenches against David McSatan numerous times by exposing his crimes and I'm very proud of you for that. I wish the voices of the Freezone had been loud enough for me to hear when I was still entrapped at the Int base. If I had known the Bridge was available outside the Church of Scientology my path would certainly have been different for I was trying desperately to find a solution. People inside do not know OT is available outside the Church because they are carefully fed false information.

Surely too, while you guys were outside, I was inside on the wrong team. But when I joined the SO, LRH was still alive. I had never even heard of Kaboom McTinyfists.

As the Sea Org atmosphere became increasingly toxic, I tried everything to change it back including speaking out that “the problem with the Int base is that the top execs are intentionally misusing ethics to create an environment of fear and intimidation instead of ARC." Within hours I was in the RPF, with no money and not even a tooth brush or a bar of soap, 90 miles from my wife, with no idea why I was even there.

I tried every way to fix the problem from the inside. And 14 years later when I was finally taken off post, to be “off-loaded” from the Int base in December 2003, it was because DM found out I had secretly gotten 35 people to read a book that said, "The problem with the world is it's a planet of victims. Stop being a victim and take responsibility for yourself." I was still trying break DM's hold from the inside and it just wasn’t possible to do. So really while you guys were outside trying to solve the problem, many of us WERE trying to fix it from the inside. And getting slaughtered for our efforts and even having our children murdered.

I don’t want to see a truce. I want to see the APIS, the Freezone and Independent Scientology work in concert to bring the world similar wins and gains to our own, while also protecting them from the catastrophic pain that David Miscavige will inflict.[/FON
The Key Question of Scientology opens one lock and closes another.

Thoughtful

Thanks Ems. Good start.

However it needs more. He needs to apologise for stupid attacks that have no relation to logic[ lets include data series] I've mailed similar comments to him personally.

The above is for his own sake. he seems to have realised this at least partly.

 

[Smilla]

But seriously folks, that NOTS doesn't seem to be doing what it said on the can.

 

[Anonycat]

I hear ya, Smilla. They told me it was science and religion, but now look at me. I guess results vary.

 

[tetloj]

Snakes and rodents squirrels and vermin
whose on top is hard to determine.

I'd like to like-like this!

 

[Veda]

-snip-

Marty should try and reconcile with David IMO.

Not likely. Rathbun despises David Mayo as he "attacked LRH," and sought to bring Hubbard into court, before a judge, and this, during a time when Marty&Mike&David Miscavige were busy protecting Hubbard from taking responsibility for his years of criminal conduct.

David Mayo endured a legal battle, spanning over a decade, and that battle - or series of battles - resulted in judicial opinions such as this:

Rathbun has never been sued by the CofS. And that's odd. One possibility is a quiet agreement - to keep their "war" within certain bounds - between Rathbun&Miscavige resulting from mutual blackmail. Another possibility is that the accumulated judicial opinions and findings, in various cases including David Mayo's, have exposed Scientology application of Hubbard's 1955 "ruin utterly" tech, making the CofS slightly less bold and brazen in this area.

So maybe Rathbun should thank David Mayo, and others, who fought the good fight - when it was brutal and nasty - before that fight was reduced to the ridiculous: YouTube-able middle-aged guys with beer-bellies in squirrel buster t-shirts.

Another reason why Rathbun hates David Mayo is that he's a truth-teller on the subject of L. Ron Hubbard.


There's Russell Miller's interview of David Mayo, Class XII, from August 1986.

This excerpt concerns events from the late 1960s:

"He [Hubbard] could be capable of incredible cruelty. On the ship there was an old man on the Royal Scotman who he made push a peanut round the decks with his nose. He had to get down on his hands and knees, he had to go round the deck, quite a long distance in a race with one or two others also in trouble. The first one back got let off and the last one got a double penalty.

"It was really tough on this old guy, Charlie Reisdorf. The surface of the deck was very rough wood, prone to splinter, so after pushing peanuts with their noses, they all had raw, bleeding noses, leaving a trail of blood behind them. I not only saw it but the entire crew of the ship was mustered - a mandatory attendance - we were required to watch this punishment, to make an example of it for the rest of us. Reisdorf was in his late 50s probably. His two daughters were messengers, they were 11 or 12 at time and his wife was there also.

"It was hard to say which was worse to watch: this old guy with a bleeding nose or his wife and kids sobbing and crying at being forced to watch this. Hubbard was standing there calling the shots, yelling, 'Faster, Faster!'. It was indignity, degradation and breaking a person's will, and making people watch. It was disgusting...

"They used to have people locked in the chain locker, including small children. It was very dangerous because if the anchor started to slip and started running out, it would probably turn a body into a pulp in no time at all...

"He [LRH] had a birthday party on March 13, 1968; there was a woman who he ordered locked in the chain locker. During the party he had brought her out. She was filthy, covered with dirt and rust, and had not been allowed to wash or change clothes - she had been in there for a week... he brought her out to the party. He said he was giving her a reprieve and permitting her to come to the party, as if that was a nice gesture. She wasn't allowed to change. She was brought to the party and had to stay, and later was returned [to the chain locker]... it was flaunting her degradation...

"Why did people stand by?...

"From time to time, Hubbard would cancel such activities like the chain locker, and blame it on someone else... He would start such pronouncements with, 'It has just come to my attention...'

"The length of time for children would vary, but no one was less than a day...

"Reisdorf [peanut pushing] affair - if someone tried to do something, it would have made it worse. Hubbard said that maritime law prevailed... He said that under maritime law, he had total power over everyone on the vessel..."


And one brief excerpt concerning events from the late 1970s:

"He told me he was obsessed with an insatiable lust for power and money. He said it very emphatically. He thought it wasn't possible to get enough. He didn't say it as if it was a fault, just his frustration that he couldn't get enough."


And then there's the article on 'Clear' by David Mayo from the early 1990s:

It was PR and marketing considerations that led Hubbard to decide that certain people were 'clear' at a certain point..."


And only last year there was a major kerfuffle on OCMB over the seamless airbrushing-away, by a Rathbun supporter, of a section of a affidavit by David Mayo - a section that criticized Hubbard and, apparently, "besmirched his good name." A minor item, by itself, but those few questioning the airbrushed affidavit soon found themselves besieged by those who wanted all questioning of the suspicious affidavit stopped.

It seems that the Independent Scientologists are attempting to re-write (and "erase") selected portions of Scientology history.

Truth-tellers on the subject of Hubbard are not welcome.

As for Rathbun's comments on those who - often after prolonged struggles in the courts, and under duress, and long before the Internet - signed gag agreements: IMO, Rathbun is secretly delighted with those agreements, and the last thing he would want would be for those individuals to be speaking out.

A hint of this was provided some time back, when one J. Swift, a Marty-shill, described Gerry Armstrong as a "scofflaw" for not abiding with his gag agreement.

Very telling.

 

[Goodbye]

That has been Marty's "official line" since his departure: if only Mayo & the others hadn't signed those nda's which I coerced them into through my decades long persecutions ....

He'll feed his flock just about anything to keep himself in the light of applause at the expense of others suckling on his CO$-reform trough.

Rinder stated on Irish TV the abuse he received, and doled out too, was only intended to intimidate -- not to harm physically. Yet Mayo nearly lost his teeth running around trees in burning hot temps, and then harassed severely for over 10 years. Rathbun/Rinder are honorable men, but Mayo is just a sell-out, because he didn't turn his cheek long enough. And why give the church a "keep-$2 million" stat for the abuse anyways?

Me suspects they're not eligible for such a bounty after the FBI yawned at them, so then just let's play Batman & Robin in the FZ and make a few bucks while we're at it.

 

[loose cannon]

Re: Hall posts a mea culpa (sorta)

But how can he say he had no idea about the Freezone? I had several websites online about the Freezone starting before the middle of 2004. Did he ever use a search engine in the 4 years between 2004-2008 and see what was online about Scientology? Jeez. He wouldn't have had to look far to find the Freezone, Clearbird, Prometheus Reports with the OT Levels etc. Even Scienowiki, started at the end of 2005.

My sentiments, exactly. Interesting how he apparently still doesn't realize what a wonderful invention Google is and how it would have helped him, if only he had used it correctly.

I was declared in 2002 and after I realized that it couldn't be resolved - if I didn't want to humiliate myself by admitting that the correct thing I had done (blowing from the SO after too-long-lasting coercion to stay) was wrong - it didn't take long to google out the Freezone.

It did take relatively long to make up my mind if those people were to be trusted. Fortunately, the Ron's org terminals in Germany and Switzerland turned out to be extremely nice and helpful people. I like them still now when Scientology is no long the path of my personal development.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Hall posts a mea culpa (sorta)

... It did take relatively long to make up my mind if those people are to be trusted. Fortunately, the Ron's org terminals in Germany and Switzerland turned out to be extremely nice and helpful people. I like them still now when Scientology is no long the path of my personal development.

They are nice people. I completely agree.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Feral]

Re: Hall posts a mea culpa (sorta)

I see it differently.

I see a man struggling with the pain and personal damage from a hellishly abusive cult making an effort to explain a grave error which he still hasn't got his head around. It's going to take time, I think because the attitudes that the error sprang from are ingrained in OTs and the 'elite' of Scientology.

He's got my best wishes, even though he didn't actually manage an apology, yet.

Below is Steve Hall's "apology" to the FZ.

It might be just me, but this guy who I'd barely noticed or cared about for 4 years has all of a sudden become one of the most abhorent people I've ever "met".

The tl:dr version is "Sorry, it looks like I was wrong, but I actually wasn't and I guess you can still be on my team because I'm super".

Steve Hall
Message to APIS and the Freezone

A contentious problem is an opportunity for a spectacular resolution.

/SNIP/
I tried every way to fix the problem from the inside. And 14 years later when I was finally taken off post, to be “off-loaded” from the Int base in December 2003, it was because DM found out I had secretly gotten 35 people to read a book that said, "The problem with the world is it's a planet of victims. Stop being a victim and take responsibility for yourself." I was still trying break DM's hold from the inside and it just wasn’t possible to do. So really while you guys were outside trying to solve the problem, many of us WERE trying to fix it from the inside. And getting slaughtered for our efforts and even having our children murdered.

I don’t want to see a truce. I want to see the APIS, the Freezone and Independent Scientology work in concert to bring the world similar wins and gains to our own, while also protecting them from the catastrophic pain that David Miscavige will inflict.

The Key Question of Scientology opens one lock and closes another.

Thoughtful