Steve Hall's post on closed Indy Facebook group

[Smilla]

Mostly true. Good point.

This too, shall pass. Like MAB said, the ones delivering the OT levels are pretty much aged Scns anyway. It's not like COS makes auditors these days.

But they are no longer isolated from the rest of the world, either, and don't practice a lot of the other abusive practices (RPF, etc). Those will wear off, and as they come closer to the median, they will (and do) find more to agree with outside Scn.

Yeah, I think you and Mark are right there.

 

[Anonycat]

Wait, Hall was GO? I thought when the shit hit the fan that GO was disbanded and everyone was kicked off staff. Maybe he was transferred before then? Or is my info all wrong...mind you I spoke to one former GO, one time about what went down, but he did say that's what happened. Now I'm wishing I'd asked more questions.

I'm less worried about Hall's background in "Black Dianetics" than I am about his marketing skill. He's working overtime to launch this new advertising campaign for Scientology.

Why the hell can't these guys just do their own thing and knock off the crazy "must form a group" crap that landed everyone in a cult in the first bloody place?!

I think the GO became OSA. I think any high level scilon is familiar with the term 'black dianetics' or 'reverse dianetics'. I have certainly seen the dox, and it's - for once - pretty self-explanatory! Think: black magic/insanity/psychosis side of scientology. Just the opposite of what it does when done as usual.

They band together like so many BTs because that is the heart of a cult: a group. And this one has a large structure. I mean if you're planning on emulating the cult, that's some desks to man.

And, gee you need all those posts staffed and hatted if you're doing it right. Who has the checklist? Okay Ethics is on there. Next?

 

[chuckbeatty]

Re: Marty: A Talk To OSA Staff (video)

Understanding these guys seems quite simple to me; think Billion Year Contract and a ways to go. They think of themselves as Loyal Officers. Simple!

I always have loved your thoughts.

It comes down to the theory of souls, the independents think they are souls, that transmigrate, lifetime to lifetime, and thus will be around for eternity.

100% of those posting on this Facebook page, I'd wager 100% are certain they will be returning, for eternity.

They've achieved the certainty, of their future lives, I'd wager in the high 90s %.

They believe in a lot of fundamental concepts about souls, about past lives, about what hurts a soul, and they believe in a huge amount of Hubbard verbiage.

I think, to properly appreciate ANY of the still lingering Scientology freezone, or this "new" independent group (the great and MUST read library at Carnegie Mellon University site, that Dave Touretzky points to, has amongst the "Secret Library of Scientology" books, the MUST READ book by Townsend. Townsend's book mentions the "independent Scientology" splinter Scientologists, as of mid 1980s, so Steve Hall, not to get into just knocking every single person for their lapses in doing their homework for their single-purposed self praising of their label for themselves: "independent Scientologists", it's a label that was already taken , back in the 1980s, by those then, and it's something that ANY splinter group, and praise the new wave of "independents" who are doing what they are doing, ignorant that they were preceded by a wave in the 1980s, an even greater wave of even MORE well trained and just as authentically and sincerely dedicatedly trained and honest ex Scientologists of THAT 1980s, era.

I'm just saying, as everyone knows, "history repeats itself" and the "independent" label, as others have noted already, I'm just also repeating what others have said and noted, this "independent" label, Steve's just trying to give it a new ooomph, and likely he didn't know that the likes of Per Schiottz, already were fitting themselves into that mid 1980s label "independent" Scientologists.

Oh Well!

I only think the BEST of what these Scientologist splinterering members do, which is they talk publicly. They are contactable.

It you treat them with normal "religious" tolerance, they act way more decently, for the most part, if you avoid pointing out their obvious faults (which are not obvious to them, and like normal people who can't see their obvious faults, they react badly and knee jerk irrationally when you go that route with them).

Me, it's simple, as an atheist, it's all bunk, and human bunk history, and human failings, all of them.

But worse, to me, are those other details of Scientology. Namely Hubbard's evil policies that keep them all (to the degree than even the more enlightened freezone and indpendent Scientologists) are suffering from the Hubbard bad ideas that they use to harm each other and harm the world.

Anyways, I really appreciate all the critical chat sites, and love your postings Panda.

 

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

Wait,....snip......

Why the hell can't these guys just do their own thing and knock off the crazy "must form a group" crap that landed everyone in a cult in the first bloody place?!

Because they are living in Ron's world. Being slaves to the ideas of Ron and smashing his name into history.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Re: Marty: A Talk To OSA Staff (video)

I always have loved your thoughts.

It comes down to the theory of souls, the independents think they are souls, that transmigrate, lifetime to lifetime, and thus will be around for eternity.

100% of those posting on this Facebook page, I'd wager 100% are certain they will be returning, for eternity. ...

No doubt that is a factor but it is not what determines susceptibility. Many hold similar views but easily avoid the trap.


Mark A. Baker

 

[chuckbeatty]

Thanks for posting. I'd heard about this, but have never seen it.

Warning to others: don't start the video if you aren't prepared to watch it. It's absolutely engrossing.


Mark A. Baker

Oh, postings like this thread, and veering off into George Smiley, La Carre, what a treat.

Thankyou Ema and all who've made ESMB a priceless little niche of the ongoing best of commenting on Hubbard's crappy Scientology.

 

[chuckbeatty]

Because they are living in Ron's world. Being slaves to the ideas of Ron and smashing his name into history.

I was a willing slave, for the Nirvana, of the L rundowns exterioration for all who did those magical (con, not) Ls that do not exteirorize one and all, as Hubbard promised (the con of ages, promising flight as one's pure soul essence and with "visio", "full viso" per Hubbard).

Naw, remember, lots of humans, think India, have spent their lives, going for the Nirvana, and giving up all material pleasures.

I, have to say, I consciously chose, or hoped and chose, the Hubbard "Bridge to Total Freedom" (reading those Advance Mags that gave the exterioriztaion testimonies), and I unfortunately hoped the ancient "astral soul travels" of other mystical groups, were similarly being delivered by the Hubbard operation, Scientology.

No, it's been a long human frailty, sort of a custom made dupedom, the dupes for the soul powers class of dupes, that "we" in the Scientology sub class of "seekers" of these long human history con fraud game offerings, which have for thousands of years been promised.

I think, were the "seeker" category of dupes to be properly surveyed, you'd (people wondering WTF are these dupes thinking?!), you'd see we were sold on the juvenile false dreams of soul flight.

Getting out, for me, reading Steven Pinker, and Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris, have deflated what I already mentally punctured, this belief in the soul. The soul that can somehow eject, and still perceieve, once out of the body. That fantasy, is not a Hubbard commodity, but Hubbard merely saw and rediscovered how so many con men have seen, and themselves deluded themselves into believing, in the soul, the fantasy of ejecting out of the body, and sitll retaining one's "beingness" as that soul, and transmigrating, or "operating" as that "operating thetan" soul.

Hubbard's Scientology just carries on the myth of the soul. The soul, that to me, doesn't exist.

So, us "slaves" were slaves not only to Hubbard, but a misconception, and fantasy about truly some fact that isn't really a fact. The soul, it's the fact that doesn't really exist, really.

So blame goes unfortunately, all the way back, to a lot of humanity.

The blame goes, mocking L. Hubbard, "earlier similar" to others, who've sold humanity the soul.

Hubbard's con Scientology soul ejection/enlightenment Scientology operation, rides on humanity's con soul concept (think Plato on forward), a concept already deeply sold on a huge chunk of the population, and seemingly almost genetically (via ignorance of observation, meaning "What color is my shirt?" or "How many fingers am I holding up(behind one's back so the OT can't see)).

Hubbard's floating his Scientology con on a lot of humanity's long held false assumptions about the soul, transmigration, etc.

 

[HoraciotheOT8]

But they are no longer isolated from the rest of the world, either, and don't practice a lot of the other abusive practices (RPF, etc). Those will wear off, and as they come closer to the median, they will (and do) find more to agree with outside Scn.

Nice.

The upshot being a focus on the oncoming and impending transformation of a society, that Scientology inadvertently produced. Within itself.

Nice. Rich. Deep. Thanks.

Horacio

long live gottabrain

 

[Anonycat]

Wise words

Hi Chuck,

We spoke on the phone a couple of times a few years ago, so hi again!

I think your post was very well said. From my own perspective, scientology was sitting there and the 1960's came along. TM, LSD, and a huge interest in all things Indian. Tim Leary had his League for Spiritual Discovery. Stanford is looking into the possibility of verifying remote viewing. It was a time of personal/spiritual discovery, and that culture brought with it a huge library of accoutrements! It was common to see chanting Hare Krishna groups in town, I saw Moonies offer me a carnation for a donation. All the usual, for back then.

As strange as it may sound to some; it wasn't too crazy an idea to go to a "free lecture" at the begging of a friend. Hey, going exterior, bro? I'm liking that. Now, people are, frankly, more results-oriented. They aren't as starry-eyed maybe.

I just wanted to throw that in there.

 

[Div6]

I was a willing slave, for the Nirvana, of the L rundowns exterioration for all who did those magical (con, not) Ls that do not exteirorize one and all, as Hubbard promised (the con of ages, promising flight as one's pure soul essence and with "visio", "full viso" per Hubbard).

Naw, remember, lots of humans, think India, have spent their lives, going for the Nirvana, and giving up all material pleasures.

I, have to say, I consciously chose, or hoped and chose, the Hubbard "Bridge to Total Freedom" (reading those Advance Mags that gave the exterioriztaion testimonies), and I unfortunately hoped the ancient "astral soul travels" of other mystical groups, were similarly being delivered by the Hubbard operation, Scientology.

No, it's been a long human frailty, sort of a custom made dupedom, the dupes for the soul powers class of dupes, that "we" in the Scientology sub class of "seekers" of these long human history con fraud game offerings, which have for thousands of years been promised.

I think, were the "seeker" category of dupes to be properly surveyed, you'd (people wondering WTF are these dupes thinking?!), you'd see we were sold on the juvenile false dreams of soul flight.

Getting out, for me, reading Steven Pinker, and Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris, have deflated what I already mentally punctured, this belief in the soul. The soul that can somehow eject, and still perceieve, once out of the body. That fantasy, is not a Hubbard commodity, but Hubbard merely saw and rediscovered how so many con men have seen, and themselves deluded themselves into believing, in the soul, the fantasy of ejecting out of the body, and sitll retaining one's "beingness" as that soul, and transmigrating, or "operating" as that "operating thetan" soul.

Hubbard's Scientology just carries on the myth of the soul. The soul, that to me, doesn't exist.

So, us "slaves" were slaves not only to Hubbard, but a misconception, and fantasy about truly some fact that isn't really a fact. The soul, it's the fact that doesn't really exist, really.

So blame goes unfortunately, all the way back, to a lot of humanity.

The blame goes, mocking L. Hubbard, "earlier similar" to others, who've sold humanity the soul.

Hubbard's con Scientology soul ejection/enlightenment Scientology operation, rides on humanity's con soul concept (think Plato on forward), a concept already deeply sold on a huge chunk of the population, and seemingly almost genetically (via ignorance of observation, meaning "What color is my shirt?" or "How many fingers am I holding up(behind one's back so the OT can't see)).

Hubbard's floating his Scientology con on a lot of humanity's long held false assumptions about the soul, transmigration, etc.

Was it really for the "total cause" experience, or was being part of a group that "made OT's" a part of the glue? I ask, because part of what Hubbard tapped, I think, was living vicariously...the "I must morally be OK or "better" than most as I am "contributing to the motion" of "making OT's"....the "ultimate weapon"....

AND.....something that Omar Garrison stated in "Playing Dirty" ... "Scientology woman were the most beautiful in the world." (Which had some truth in those early formative days.) I always wondered why that statement was in there, but the "glue" comes in many forms...

 

[Vittorio]

Great post chuck.

Although I disagree about the idea of souls/spirits and I'm very fond of different traditions, peoples and cultures that have followed this route, I do believe that Hubbard made people's immortality a sticking point that they couldn't move from. Once a few wins were had and a person is firmly accepting things such ethics, write-ups and attending events, it would seem that any act is permissable as long as it promotes group and the final goal.

They actually don't know what hurts a soul/person which is why members can be dropped like a bomb for protesting something that is wrong or for telling the truth in the face of the group. The road to total freedom becomes the road to complete and utter entrapment.

The Indie movement has come (and mostly) gone before. This one is that bit more unpleasant (for me). They cannot see anything from outside their own belief system. Marty uses popular music, non-scio books to try and make Scientology principles acceptable. If the principles are not noble enough to do that on their own then they are worthless.

As a (non-orthodox) Jew, I am never without a place to go for dinner on a Friday, no shortage of invitations to weddings, baby blessings, cultural trips (live music, museums), charity work. A real sense of community where giving to others, especially those less fortunate is a good thing. Kindness and goodness is everywhere, just waiting to be revealed. Once it is experienced there is no going back to Scientology, where such random acts of kindness are few and far between and rarely done without something expected back.

All this crock about "out exchange" when it comes to other humans. Should be a pleasure to give someone a "leg-up", not a crime. I'm not giving money to legal funds for ex-SO people who still believe in the very hooks they find themselves hanging from.

 

[Vittorio]

The only thing that got me out of the mind**** was the mind**** itself. Terril Parks was great for this; fighting rationality and truth in order to protect the charlatans in the Freezone who harm and abuse their subjects under the guise of being 'LRH trained', 'practicing for X amount of years'. It's a real onion peeler. He is friends with everyone, but causes the most fallout.

I see there's been some arguing between some critics on another thread I think. This is not entirely unhealthy as such arguing is forbidden in a cult and even critics of Scientology can be authoritarian and to be frank, completely nuts. We all left that. The younger generation of critics don't like being told they are OSA or using Scientology techniques, when it is the accuser who is doing just that after being completed f'd up from being involved with the cult for so long and being driven insane by fighting it for so long.

Hence, I don't want to post much. I don't even want to use Hubbard's lousy concepts. We all have a personal duty to deprogram ourselves by standing up and saying the truth when it needs saying. Life outside the S word and in the wog world is very challenging and rewarding. Life on these forums is not. The old Indie's have mostly moved on and a far more disturbing movement has taken root. The most important forum on here and one of the least used is Org watch, not this forum which is always busy. Org watch has fresh accounts from people newly out or from people who've got leaked information about what is actually happening. Martyworld is not a not a pleasant world.

 

[Boson Wog Stark]

Because they are living in Ron's world. Being slaves to the ideas of Ron and smashing his name into history.

This was in response to a poster who asked, "Why must they form a group?"

The thing that I've found curious about the groups of Scientologists, be they indie or mother cult, is that they have no simple precepts to tell outsiders. They can only do what Ron taught them -- sell them into Scientology, urge them to read Scientology or get auditing.

The point is, Scientology is so convoluted, contradictory, and elaborate, you can't really talk about it to outsiders. They simply won't understand. So, that's fine -- you can't expect masses of people to understand quantum physics either -- however there's a few key differences.

It's not expected that everyone will come to an understanding of quantum physics, however people who work in the field of quantum physics don't expect broad understanding of it among most people on the planet to "clear the planet." Instead, they believe that the things that are workable, and proven by scientific study, will cause many transformations, by the people who work in that field, in conjunction with people who work in other fields such as technology and medicine.

Whether it's the Zeitgeist movement or Christianity, there are principles from these movements that people can tell outsiders about, that they can understand and relate to. Scientology DOES NOT HAVE THIS. So, how can it spread?

It can spread, according to Scientologists, by magical thinking. That is, people like Steve Hall, Marty, Hubbard or Miscavige, believe Scientologists have such powerz that they will clear the planet by forming these groups and "smashing Ron's name into history" -- selling it as a set of promises, things that could be if only -- what?

More people believe? But, how, realistically, do you get to a point where more people believe, when there are no simple principles to tell others, and no demonstrable results?

That is the lunacy. It's a Catch-22 -- Scientology will start working when more people do it and believe in it, and there's less "suppression" from outsiders? When SMERSH is defeated at last?

 

[AnonyMary]

That's a good question Daisy. Hall expresses a couple of important memes: "breaking up SP comm lines" and "all the tech in reverse."

Breaking up SP comm lines: Hubbard orders the capture and use of enemy comm lines in Battle Tactics:



Here are the vital targets for Scientologists, in which Hubbard directed the [strike]subversion of[/strike] takeover of the control or allegiance of the heads of news media, key political figures and those who monitor international finance.



The Indy FB documents show Steve Hall's effort to "get ethics in on" the Early Indies, even to the point of ordering that some of them leave. Hall's behavior was rejected by some, but he also received expressions of acceptance and support, such as from Karen de la Carriere.

As a way to interpret Hall's actions, it seems that Karen introduced Hubbard's [STRIKE]advice[/STRIKE] order on how to attain a Position of Power by "bringing order."



Scientologists "bring order" using Division One policies, specifically "ethics" directives. It is the hat of HCO personnel to "Bring Order," and it is the responsibility of every Scientologist to assist in that activity and goal. "HCO Bring Order!"

Well-known examples of how Scientologists "break up SP comm lines" include what they did to infiltrate, subvert, break up, etc., the Cult Awareness Network and the Lisa McPherson Trust. Breaking up CAN and the LMT was considered highly ethical and laudable behavior, and not disgusting.

All the tech in reverse: Scientologists understand all of Hubbard's tech means everything to do with Ethics, Tech (auditing), and Admin. Applying the tech in reverse is an effort to seek the destruction of the target, rather than its "survival" or expansion. The general term for "all the tech in reverse" is "Black Dianetics." Essentially, it means acting in an antisocial manner toward designated SP targets.

As far as training someone in Black Dianetics, it is taught in the general milieu of Scientology (PTS/SP course, Ethics Specialist Course, Dissem Course, Sec Checker course, Staff hatting courses, etc.) Steve Hall was practicing it on Facebook against Ian Waxler, Michael Moore, et al.

Excellent comment. And what this also proves is that The Indies have an OSA .

 

[Vittorio]

They are living in Ron's world, the new "Independents" more than anyone. I remember responding to a post from someone who "wished there had been an Independent movement 20-30 years ago" on Marty's board. I was quickly "handled". Scientology doctrine has "squirrels" written into it, so that role has to be fulfilled by someone who is fanatic I'm afraid.

With time anything can feel like a cult. Transformation and change can help with this. Whilst Steve Hall gets all serious with his planetary handling/auditing/ethics crusade, almost 6 billion people are getting on just fine without him and Hubbard's paranoid lunacy. One thing that I've found Scientologists awkward at is making good music. Here's something I personally find uplifting;

[video=youtube;E_Vt4MlbM0c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_Vt4MlbM0c[/video]

I hope that some sunshine can come into the lives of all the people in the world ravaged by darkness at this moment. Never forget the countless opportunities we are presented with to do good for people.

 

[Fancy]

NO different people and live in differnt locations on both sides of the continent of N. America.

Isn't that one of Pierre Ethier's wife's socks?

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?24074-DCMA-takedown-threat-received-from-the-Ethiers