Suicide of Greg Bashaw

Commander Birdsong,

I'm the one who posted the video in the first place. What I find most incredible about your posts is that in your effort to start an "honest" discussion about the way the church is unfairly attacked, you have completely hijacked Greg Bashaw's thread, and helped us move from feeling genuine grief for the loss of this man's life to a intellectual conversation about culpability, completely removed from any empathy, with phrases like, "he died by his own hand." Of course he did, genius, that's what suicide is.

I read the letter that Greg Bashaw wrote to Debbie Cook in Nancy Many's book, and he was asking for help and was refused. What church just ex-communicates someone because they are mentally ill? What justification did they/you have for cutting him off like this? And don't say you didn't personally do it, because you are choosing to defend their actions.

I didn't know Mr. Bashaw, and I have never been a member of the church. But people like you terrify me and this is why I am an activist again the church. Not for political reasons or because I just need something to do with my free time, but because in terms of human evolution, totalitarianism and fascism is something that we must all stand up against, it effects us all, and it erodes the gains of democracy. Nazi Germany must teach us all. There were mother and fathers, sisters, brothers, uncles who turned on the gas chambers and killed their fellow men and women. Any of us can be desensitized to human pain and suffering the way you are inviting us to be with your posts. I do not accept your invitation.

I'm furious because while you may take issue with a name or two on that list, do you dismiss them all? I have another name for you, Birdsong: Lisa McPherson. What is your answer to what happened to her? Can you dismiss her as easily? That name is like holy water on the devil for active Scientologistss because Lisa never harmed anyone, she was an absolutely victim, and you can't "spin" her death.

Birdsong, (ironic name!), you are just another pathetic cog in the wheel, but I'm furious because even in death, and in a thread like this, which I consider a memorial, you Scientologists still come out, still try to control, still take a shit on someone grave, still try to "handle" the situation when the person can't defend themselves.

Well, you can't handle me, or my emotions. I think the death of this man is a tragedy, and whether or not Scientology pulled the trigger or not in these cases, it doesn't change the fact that there is genuine suffering going on all the time because of this church, and people like you keep blaming the victims.

So Commander Birdsong? Command yourself to get a fucking heart.

Greg Bashaw
RIP
June 2001

i do have a heart my friend. greg's death is a tragedy that touches it. i learned of his death from nancy many's book which i got from her personally at an anonymous protest in boston and that was a passage from the book that i especially recall. i wish i had known him personally as i might very well have been able to undo the debilitating psychological phenomenon he suffered. i am something more than appalled by the report that flag did not respond to his repeated requests

CoS is fucking up big time and i don't like it at all

thank you for punching in as the person who posted the video. that certainly marks you as someone better than gutless jackal who made it. i would like to indicate that since i am commenting on the video you posted that you might reconsider the allegation that i am hijacking the thread

i don't dismiss greg, lisa or anyone else. and you are new here apparently and do not know as many others do that if CoS were true to it's own policies my own bright beautiful brilliant son might be alive today instead of being dead more than twenty years

and this brings me around to the theme of my response to the video. you have not been inside the church and i have. i am trained and experienced as an auditor and as i have stated on several occaisions i deem auditing and auditor training to be very good things. however i would no more direct someone into CoS than i would send a horny dude to a cannibal to get a blowjob.

but i am quite certain the person who made the video is heartless and does not give two shits in hell about anyone's death except to get his rocks off. he has no interest whatsoever in seeing CoS clean up it's act and obey it's own policies. he is a craven ghoul who slavers over the thought of more deaths to feed his cold black dead sociopathic hatred and his desire to destroy what is actually when done well a very valuable and useful discipline
 
:roflmao::hysterical::roflmao::hysterical::roflmao::hysterical::roflmao::hysterical:

So, per you, if something can drive one crazy then one is obliged to " acknowledge " la te dah.

Well, per your "logic" ( LOL ! ) do you realize you just made it so all psychiatry produces sanity ?

As an aside, in another post you stated something to the effect of " auditing & auditor training is good ". Well, good INCOME for the Co$ is true.

What do you think DM got out of his training before he was removed from the 4 internship for striking a PC in session ?
Or what do you think he has gotten out of all his "auditing" ??

Your sense of humor seems a little morose.

hi AT

it's a simple statement, black dianetics is a reversal of the principles of dianetics which can be used to injure or destroy a person's sanity. one can logically dispute the idea that the direct application of the principles can be useful in improving health and sanity but as a practical matter i have used them often with good result

and speaking of logic, how do you leap off into DM being a jerk?

morose? did you perhaps mean macabre. my sincere apologies to those who can quite justifiably think it a distaff note on a thread which is at least in part as xenu's boyfriend points out a memorial to greg bashaw (in point of fact the OP is harsh criticism of the church of a more respectable nature than the video). but that was such a deft spoonerism i couldn't resist
 
Oh for cryin' out loud! The Mafia also makes sure that garbage gets picked up in the inner city, that public works and construction projects get completed (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more). Seriously? You don't see the surveillance tactics, thuggery, false imprisonment, etc as totally criminal? What is wrong with you?

First of all, I am not talking about the philosophy of Scientology. Please split the two in your mind. I am talking about the organization.

Anyway, I really don't know what your purpose is and I will not continue to have these discussions with you as you are clearly an apologist for the cult and have a rough time differentiating between the philosophy itself (and the efficacy of such is neither here nor there and up to anecdotal interpretation only) and the crafty, money sucking, abusive organization.

You are presenting straw man argumentation here and I have said my peace. :)

i am neither an apologist for the cult nor the church

i am an auditor

i do not now and never have apologized for the rotten crap that gets pulled. i am myself an investigator of it and i recently uncovered a wrongful death here in boston
that occurred back in 1975. a fellow from hyde park had gotten into scn and then gotten away from it and there is some information i am obliged to hold in confidence but he was in some difficult circumstances and went back to the org and wound up locked in a closet in an unheated apartment in cambridge for a couple days where he contracted pneumonia so they let him out and gave him a ride to his parents' house and he died the next day and the cambridge cops helped CoS with the coverup. business as usual.

i'm very glad you split the two in your mind but the coward who spewed out that video doesn't
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
hi AT
<snip>
it's a simple statement, black dianetics is a reversal of the principles of dianetics which can be used to injure or destroy a person's sanity. one can logically dispute the idea that the direct application of the principles can be useful in improving health and sanity but as a practical matter i have used them often with good result
<snip>

"i have used them often with good result".... OK what is true for you is true for you etc.
However, it gets more than a little dicey when what you claim where you had a good result & it does not offer much proof of such a statement much less make it true for anyone but you. Uh, goes to credibility, eh ?

There are better, much better, ways ( plus faster, less expensive, & not in a cult enviroment ) to truly help people without resorting the quackery of scn.

Saying that old " scn works " is so very very much like saying one can remove a mountain with a teaspoon & claim that " works".

Sort of ignores a shovel would be better than a spoon.

Or that a bulldozer would be better a moving mountains than a shovel.

Or that a giant bucket loader.........

But, hey, what the heck, " teaspoon works " !
 
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Look, this isn't a court of law. Can you get the basic concept though that a lying, mafia-type organization that is a business, disguised as a religion whose purpose is to extract as much money as possible from every parishioner is at odds with the best interests of its adherents?

Can you understand how the OT levels can totally mess with a person's mind? Have you not seen the programs written to spin people in on purpose? Is there not voluminous anecdotal evidence that Scientology can and is used in abusive ways that could drive a person to suicide?

How much destruction do you need to see? What vicious people are you talking about? How dare you? What's your purpose here?

no, this isn't a court of law. it's an open forum. but when discussing improper conduct it is essential to maintain reference to forensic standards and most particularly if one aspires to the redress of wrong and the improvement of conditions

i know i would like to see such things and you certainly give the impression of being "a concerned citizen" yourself

the jackass who made that video is the singular vicious jackass i am speaking of
but if people like yourself and XB don't recognize he is a poisonous toad you swallow his poison

my purpose?

manana amiga

hasta luego
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
CB - Can I ask if you mean only dn auditing when you talk about Dianetics and auditing? Because there is a difference between Dianetic auditing, Dianetics principles, etc. I really liked a lot of what was in the book Dianetics but bolted when I figured out what all the rest of it was. I didn't do any upper bridge or OT stuff, but based on what I read I think the mindfuck is probably worse than any Dianetic type stuff (black or white).
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
CB - Can I ask if you mean only dn auditing when you talk about Dianetics and auditing? Because there is a difference between Dianetic auditing, Dianetics principles, etc. I really liked a lot of what was in the book Dianetics but bolted when I figured out what all the rest of it was. I didn't do any upper bridge or OT stuff, but based on what I read I think the mindfuck is probably worse than any Dianetic type stuff (black or white).

Short answer : It ain't hard to write a tailored sec check designed to ispin in the PC.

Wrong pgm = spun & intoverted PC.

Wrong ethics conditions

scn has lots ways to fuck over a person
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
Short answer : It ain't hard to write a tailored sec check designed to ispin in the PC.

Wrong pgm = spun & intoverted PC.

Wrong ethics conditions

scn has lots ways to fuck over a person

Bolted before anyone had a chance to do that to me.... I know there is more to Dn than what it is in that book. So my comments are restricted to that introductory $50 worth of auditing they use to suck you in, the video, and the book itself.

Of course, I dunno what FZ'ers or Indies consider "Dianetics" either - if all that stuff you describe is black, white, or squirreling. Or if Dn is restricted to what's described in Book 1 in the FZ / Indie world?
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
Bolted before anyone had a chance to do that to me.... I know there is more to Dn than what it is in that book. So my comments are restricted to that introductory $50 worth of auditing they use to suck you in, the video, and the book itself.

Of course, I dunno what FZ'ers or Indies consider "Dianetics" either - if all that stuff you describe is black, white, or squirreling. Or if Dn is restricted to what's described in Book 1 in the FZ / Indie world?

All I know about the FZ / Indie crowd is I hear they tell PCs they are " 100% standard tech per KSW "...... and then they tell the media, etc they took out all the "bad stuff"

So I've not bothered to find out what their version of 'things' is... today ?
 

Sindy

Crusader
i am neither an apologist for the cult nor the church

i am an auditor

i do not now and never have apologized for the rotten crap that gets pulled. i am myself an investigator of it and i recently uncovered a wrongful death here in boston
that occurred back in 1975. a fellow from hyde park had gotten into scn and then gotten away from it and there is some information i am obliged to hold in confidence but he was in some difficult circumstances and went back to the org and wound up locked in a closet in an unheated apartment in cambridge for a couple days where he contracted pneumonia so they let him out and gave him a ride to his parents' house and he died the next day and the cambridge cops helped CoS with the coverup. business as usual.

i'm very glad you split the two in your mind but the coward who spewed out that video doesn't

Birdie,

Listen, I am not here to argue with you and I mean you absolutely no disrespect AT ALL. I also carry a healthy dose of annoyance when untruths are told, no matter where they come from or to whose benefit they belong. It can be infuriating to watch people blindly accept information as fact simply because it suits one's particular bent. Personally, that bugs that hell out of me and shows, to me at least, an equal and opposite cult-type mentality.

Truth is truth but, having said the above, I still wonder why you assume the person has vicious intentions. You call this person all sorts of names. Do you know the producer of this video? If not, and you know nothing more about this person, why can you not just point out what you see in it as false, chastise the person for not doing better research, and possibly have compassion for someone who may have lost someone to the cult and who has been damaged and may see the cult through the eyes of personal pain (something that does not always allow for complete rational/objective perception).

Why the vitriol?
 

Sindy

Crusader
i do have a heart my friend. greg's death is a tragedy that touches it. i learned of his death from nancy many's book which i got from her personally at an anonymous protest in boston and that was a passage from the book that i especially recall. i wish i had known him personally as i might very well have been able to undo the debilitating psychological phenomenon he suffered. i am something more than appalled by the report that flag did not respond to his repeated requests

CoS is fucking up big time and i don't like it at all

thank you for punching in as the person who posted the video. that certainly marks you as someone better than gutless jackal who made it. i would like to indicate that since i am commenting on the video you posted that you might reconsider the allegation that i am hijacking the thread

i don't dismiss greg, lisa or anyone else. and you are new here apparently and do not know as many others do that if CoS were true to it's own policies my own bright beautiful brilliant son might be alive today instead of being dead more than twenty years

and this brings me around to the theme of my response to the video. you have not been inside the church and i have. i am trained and experienced as an auditor and as i have stated on several occaisions i deem auditing and auditor training to be very good things. however i would no more direct someone into CoS than i would send a horny dude to a cannibal to get a blowjob.

but i am quite certain the person who made the video is heartless and does not give two shits in hell about anyone's death except to get his rocks off. he has no interest whatsoever in seeing CoS clean up it's act and obey it's own policies. he is a craven ghoul who slavers over the thought of more deaths to feed his cold black dead sociopathic hatred and his desire to destroy what is actually when done well a very valuable and useful discipline

Jesus! That's some harsh language. Again, do you know this person? Your reaction is way over the top (unless you have had past dealings with the person who made this video and KNOW his/her intent because he/she demonstrated this without question or directly told you). Wassup Birdie? Dang!
 
CB - Can I ask if you mean only dn auditing when you talk about Dianetics and auditing? Because there is a difference between Dianetic auditing, Dianetics principles, etc. I really liked a lot of what was in the book Dianetics but bolted when I figured out what all the rest of it was. I didn't do any upper bridge or OT stuff, but based on what I read I think the mindfuck is probably worse than any Dianetic type stuff (black or white).

i basically would think of myself as a dianeticist, the levels 0-IV are called scientology levels and they are all just fine with me. i didn't do any upper levels but i have demonstrated "OT" abilities

practicing "black dianetics" is very very nasty thing to do
 
Jesus! That's some harsh language. Again, do you know this person? Your reaction is way over the top (unless you have had past dealings with the person who made this video and KNOW his/her intent because he/she demonstrated this without question or directly told you). Wassup Birdie? Dang!

no

i don't know the person. that's part of what makes them such an a-hole. it's an anonymous attack (XB doesn't present his own name but he does present himself)

it is not my usual SOP to bandy CoS lingo but the term "merchant of chaos" fits the guy quite well. "The Church of Scientology ended the lives...!" no. it didn't. greg bashaw ended his life. i believe the reports i have in hand are sufficient to say flag was both horribly incompetent and irresponsible in their conduct but they did not end his life. greg's distress may or may not have been precipitated from auditing. this is an unknown...

well lemme get back to today's materiel...
 
Look, this isn't a court of law. Can you get the basic concept though that a lying, mafia-type organization that is a business, disguised as a religion whose purpose is to extract as much money as possible from every parishioner is at odds with the best interests of its adherents?

Can you understand how the OT levels can totally mess with a person's mind? Have you not seen the programs written to spin people in on purpose? Is there not voluminous anecdotal evidence that Scientology can and is used in abusive ways that could drive a person to suicide?

How much destruction do you need to see? What vicious people are you talking about? How dare you? What's your purpose here?

well...

when i came upon this board i spent more than three weeks reading all 400 and some odd pages of the fcdc thread and delighted in finding many old friends and pc's there. and now i greatly enjoy new friends as well. i do have an auditor's purpose of 'disenturbulating theta" and the bozo of the video does nothing other than all he can to "enturbulate theta"

i have never done the "OT" levels. i have never set foot in a saint hill or an AO. i am not going to comment on that which i know not. but i'll tell you heinlein was less than enthused about OTIII. i was going to put this on the trepidatious thread but when i broached the topic of ron and bobby one of our local morons gooked all over my post. anyway back in the late sixties before he released "the wall of fire" ron stopped in on his old friend and outlined it for him. when he was done bob looked him in the eye and said "ron... that's so cold your students are going to die of pneumonia" so ron liked the line so much he wrote it into the tech
 
"i have used them often with good result".... OK what is true for you is true for you etc.
However, it gets more than a little dicey when what you claim where you had a good result & it does not offer much proof of such a statement much less make it true for anyone but you. Uh, goes to credibility, eh ?

There are better, much better, ways ( plus faster, less expensive, & not in a cult enviroment ) to truly help people without resorting the quackery of scn.

Saying that old " scn works " is so very very much like saying one can remove a mountain with a teaspoon & claim that " works".

Sort of ignores a shovel would be better than a spoon.

Or that a bulldozer would be better a moving mountains than a shovel.

Or that a giant bucket loader.........

But, hey, what the heck, " teaspoon works " !

i've essayed a few particularly good results on this board including one on this thread. that was quite gratifying to relieve a long term somatic left over from a grotesque engram.

i have no problem with other things that work and use other things as well myself. i do find some exceptional and unique value in hubbard's work

and...

again...

you're in LA and and have active pals. please. can you tell me anything of how "the master" is being received by the people who are in?

well i gotta go drive my taxi...

see y'all monday lawd willin' an' if the crick don' rise
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
i believe the reports i have in hand are sufficient to say flag was both horribly incompetent and irresponsible in their conduct but they did not end his life. greg's distress may or may not have been precipitated from auditing. this is an unknown...

Well, I think you've managed to construe the issue rather narrowly. I don't think auditing is inherently bad, even if I think the supposed need for it it (including Book 1) is based on a flawed premise. Given the expense of auditing, the expense of being a Scientologist, the false promises associated with auditing, the destruction of all 8 dynamics by the Co$, and the fact that the Co$ generally blames it on the PC if the tech didn't work, I'd say that there is plenty of blame for the Co$.
 

NoName

A Girl Has No Name
i basically would think of myself as a dianeticist, the levels 0-IV are called scientology levels and they are all just fine with me. i didn't do any upper levels but i have demonstrated "OT" abilities

practicing "black dianetics" is very very nasty thing to do

OK, well that's helpful to know, since I think Sindy's earlier point about the mindfuck becomes more valid the higher one goes up the bridge. The time frame of your involvement with the Co$ and what part of Bridge you did is helpful for knowing where you're coming from.

I have a vast majority of Clear abilities and some OT abilities myself. I don't have any of those health-related abilities (like not needing reading glasses, not getting colds, etc. since I think that is all bullshit anyway). Specifically, I go exterior with some frequency. The funny thing is, when I feel defensive (pain, fear) I can't do it. I felt Dn taking the ability away - and at that point I didn't even know enough about OT to know that was the whole point of the upper bridge. One of the ex-SO people I met (completely coincidentally) after my encounter with the Co$ explained to me about going exterior.

Anyway, loss of ability is one of the reasons I bolted so early. That and any time I asked questions about beliefs, I got a bunch of thought stopping cliches as a response. I know how to detect horse shit and avoid stepping in it. That's an old farm girl ability that has nothing to do with Clear or OT.
 

Auditor's Toad

Clear as Mud
<snip>
you're in LA and and have active pals. please. can you tell me anything of how "the master" is being received by the people who are in?
<snip>

I do not know anybody "in" who admits to having gone to see " The Master" or planning to see it.

I suspect those free people have been told to avoid that entheta on penality of ethics handlings if they do.

But, like everyone else, I'd love to know what active clams think.

Did the main character come close to the old boy ?
Nibs has been so throughly trashed by the Co$ for so long was the character accepted or rejected ?
How was the portrail of Mary Sue anywhere near accurate ?
Did the movie raise any questions about the early years?
What was the message of the movie?
Did it deserve the awards it got ?

And a few dozen more questions, too.

My humor question would be : Know anyone who saw the movie and got so upset by it they had to have it " run out" ? ( Back in the day, I had PCs that had to have movies " run out ". And the would go see the horror movie again to " if they were flat on it". And, of course, have to run it out again...at HGC rates).

PS - I'm not in LA. I get to LA on business with some frequency but I don't live there.
And I still know lots of people who live there that are still clammy ones.
 
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