Gadfly
Crusader
Can any legal experts chime in here?
This all happened over 25 years ago! Statute of limitations? :confused2:
What precedents exist for similar scenarios?
Tampa Bay Times Entheta Tsunamis
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Can any legal experts chime in here?
This all happened over 25 years ago! Statute of limitations? :confused2:
What precedents exist for similar scenarios?
JustMe
Patron Meritorious
I really enjoyed your posting Gadfly, it was funny and also insightful.
It would be easy to remove Miscavige from corporate authority and as a signatory on accounts IF people had the courage to do it. Here for fun is a posting I did once just for its enturbulation value. It points out some ways to remove the tiny terror:
http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?17445-How-to-Wipe-Out-Miscaviage&p=402914#post402914
You are very right about him controling things because he has the support of the sea org folks. Here is another post I did that refers to an incredible affidavit on the subject of controls written by Vaughn Young:
https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/david-miscavige-lying-about-controlling-organized-scientology.93848/
While I was in on designing the corporate structure and have spoken/written about it many times over years, Vaughn put it better and more simply for others to understand than I ever did.
I would for free help others to take over from Miscavige. Why? For Kyle's mother, for Lisa's mother, for Alexander's mother and for mothers (and fathers) everywhere who have lost children to scientology.
Then, those that take over have a short period to start some MAJOR reforms and cancellations of Hubbard policies that I have no idea can be done to the extent needed to not make scientology a public danger.
I do not believe that the public can tolerate much longer the horrors we all know to exist under the banner of scientology whether its under Miscavige or anyone else. At least I hope that is true.
I know I am a broken record on this, but to the extent that we keep getting out the truth about scientology and organized scientology we will make a positive difference.
FWIW
Lurker5
Gold Meritorious Patron
TG1
Angelic Poster
Great breaking events. Loving it.
I don't have much time to type right now, but will add a few thoughts.
My crystal ball says that what'll happen if / when Miscavige bails (with or without big bucks) is that the current "shared reality" among the last dregs of Kool-aid sippers (that Scientology is good and workable and useful and worth devoting the rest of their lives and bucks and energies to) will be shattered along with their last shreds of confidence in the con.
I am betting every single participating in-good-standing Church member knows in their heart of hearts what a pile of shit the cult truly is. Either consciously or unconsciously they're hoping, praying, wishing, dreaming for a "new shared reality" that will crack open the prison doors and allow them to escape.
When that happens (if it does), they will flee and never be seen again.
There won't be anything worth leading or COB'ing for because there won't be anybody left to lead.
The end.
My two cents' worth.
TG1
I don't have much time to type right now, but will add a few thoughts.
My crystal ball says that what'll happen if / when Miscavige bails (with or without big bucks) is that the current "shared reality" among the last dregs of Kool-aid sippers (that Scientology is good and workable and useful and worth devoting the rest of their lives and bucks and energies to) will be shattered along with their last shreds of confidence in the con.
I am betting every single participating in-good-standing Church member knows in their heart of hearts what a pile of shit the cult truly is. Either consciously or unconsciously they're hoping, praying, wishing, dreaming for a "new shared reality" that will crack open the prison doors and allow them to escape.
When that happens (if it does), they will flee and never be seen again.
There won't be anything worth leading or COB'ing for because there won't be anybody left to lead.
The end.
My two cents' worth.
TG1
RogerB
Crusader
The answer is that it began 25+ years ago . . . but the "crime"/fraud has continued and is current.
R
Gadfly
Crusader
I wish what you said was true. I really do.
But sadly, I think your statements greatly underestimate the human capacity for stupidity, idiocy, self-perpetuated blindness, denial, lying to self, gullibility and the desire to believe total nonsense in the face of contrary evidence and facts.
RogerB
Crusader
I think Arthur Dent and TG1 touched on a real issue in the above comments . . . this suit brings to view the extent of the betrayal and insane behavior the COB is perpetrating. And these truths will lead to the next wave of departures from the cult, just as the Debbie email did.
R
R
NoName
A Girl Has No Name
^^^This. The courts might be willing to parse individual transactions and toss some of the really early stuff. But the payments pre-2009 are not in dispute, as far as I can tell. It's the fact that he recently quit paying them that is in dispute.
In a verbal contract dispute, the fact that he paid them for many years is evidence that there was a verbal contract.
Jeffrey also said promissory estoppel - usually you argue that as a "plan B" to a contract argument even if you you think that evidence of a verbal contract is pretty solid. My guess is that he must be worried about a statute of frauds exception due to the length of time they did business together. Anywho, for promissory estoppel, you have to prove that the reliance on receiving the promised thing was reasonable. If they were getting $40k / yr for over twenty years, that's where the Broeker payments come in. He paid them for this long, so why wouldn't they think he'd pay them for the Squirrelbuster services from 2009 onward?
As an aside, I see a much more ominous sign with Marty and Pat teaming up. Steve Hall's website has a post that strongly suggests that DM kicked LRH's bucket. I've since come to believe a slightly different version of events in which Pat was playing with his horsies at a different location when LRH died, and DM never was alone with LRH. That leaves one other possible person who knew what really happened.
She died last year.
In light of Annie's recent passing, the timing of Pat & Marty teaming up for a team dwarf tossing event seems like a hell of a coincidence. Too bad I don't believe in coincidences.
It would be interesting to know if Pat still cared about Annie and if some sort of vendetta could be figuring into this. I don't know enough about those two to have an opinion about that.
secretiveoldfag
Silver Meritorious Patron
It depends whether MRMRetc. are simply "money motivated", or are actually True Believin' fruitcakes who respond to the Higher Call Of Duty (to the Scientology Cause - and all the subtle textures THAT entails)!
Didn't Hubbard list out some chart of motivation in some HCOPL, where money and personal gain were at the bottom and DUTY (to some cause) was at the top?
It is impossible to know. True fanatics, who believe the nonsense they peddle, say and promote the same things as do the scammers who want to sucker the rest of the believers for personal gain.
The problem with criminals and con artists is that they pretend to be honest and sincere. They look and appear just like the decent people. :confused2:
Again, only time will tell. There are many ways that this can all play out. And, I am not any good at reading minds or fortelling the future. Maybe if I had stayed in Scientology and continued advancing up the OT Levels, I would have GAINED THOSE ABILITIES!
Dear Fly: I don't claim to read minds or foretell anything but I look at MR and MR and I have never seen a more shifty slimy greedy dishonest pair of con artists. The idea of their taking over a new assembly of victims makes my blood run cold and the sky cloud over.
Hubbard had a lot of fun at other people's expense. The only duty he knew was to his own ego. He put personal gain at the bottom, the middle AND the top of all his charts and Marty and Mikey are his disciples.
rickybobby
Hostess of the Internet
DM is a cunning, only moderately bright psychopath. He will not leave his perch of power until it is a steaming heap of rubble at his feet. The only thing he covets more than money is power and he needs adulation as much as an addict needs crack. I firmly believe his number one motivation is NOT the money, it is the high he gets from his power over other people. He will not leave the church until his power over others is gone. Even then he will not disappear, he will only go try and find another herd of sheeple to feed his habit.
R
R
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afaceinthecrowd
Gold Meritorious Patron
Yep, Lone Star, this is a Helluva Thread!
Ton's of GREAT STUFF has been put up here in a matter of hours and I really enjoyed reading again JustMe's earlier Linked-to Post and the RVY stuff.
Jeffrey, IMO, is laying down the Template of how you rattle DM's cage and get him to cough up dough.
South Texas Courts have not and will continue to not be "User Friendly" for the Cof$, especially the rural ones.
One of DM's worst nightmares is being questioned in a deposition and subsequently cross examined on a witness stand.
Jeffrey knows all this and he's gonna make DM ring like an old time Five & Dime Cash Register.
Face
Ton's of GREAT STUFF has been put up here in a matter of hours and I really enjoyed reading again JustMe's earlier Linked-to Post and the RVY stuff.
Jeffrey, IMO, is laying down the Template of how you rattle DM's cage and get him to cough up dough.
South Texas Courts have not and will continue to not be "User Friendly" for the Cof$, especially the rural ones.
One of DM's worst nightmares is being questioned in a deposition and subsequently cross examined on a witness stand.
Jeffrey knows all this and he's gonna make DM ring like an old time Five & Dime Cash Register.
Face
Jquepublic
Silver Meritorious Patron
I think he'd suicide, personally. If he were discredited with CoS loyals and removed, he'd take the Hitler/Jim Jones route. Bunkers are ready, his personal henchmen are fanatical in their obedience...
Hope I'm wrong, but I haven't been able to shake the image of cyanide laced koool-aid and heading off to Target 2 to join Hubbard.
rickybobby
Hostess of the Internet
IMHO, I don't believe he would. I don't think he believes his own crap. I also don't think he is brave enough to commit suicide, and he is grandiose enough to think he can rebuild somewhere else. I just think he would run like a scalded dog toward the nearest exit like the sniveling coward he is.
R
Enthetan
Master of Disaster
Some possibilities:
1) They were running out of work for them to do (unlikely)
2) They were unhappy with their work (possibility, but it would have made more sense to give them severance and have some lawyer give them a cover story on what they had been working on, along with a glowing recommendation)
3) DM is running low on cash (potentially very interesting)
Enthetan
Master of Disaster
One problem with riding a tiger: it's real hard to get off without getting mauled.
If DM gives up power, all the people he's abused will be more able to come after him.
afaceinthecrowd
Gold Meritorious Patron
Gadfly
Crusader
I hope that you are right. Becuase, in that case, he will stick it out until corporate Church of Scientology is a heap of rubble, and has zero chance of EVER being resurrected!
By the way, love your board name! Talladega Nights rules!
Boson Wog Stark
Patron Meritorious
Whether the cult is running low on money, or for some other reason, I'm confused as to why they didn't just call off the PI's, terminate their contracts, before they stopped paying their salaries? Wouldn't that have been much less risky?
Why wouldn't Miscavige do anything -- sell a couple Orgs -- to get the money to pay these people?
I've read the comments from people who say Miscavige is so naive in the ways of the outside world, he just didn't understand the potential for this happening. Is that really it? Did Miscavige think, "These guys got millions over the years. They won't dare do anything"?
I'd also like to know, did the cult ever have an official statement or line they used internally, as to why Pat Broeker left? One minute, the man is speaking at the Death Event, as some kind of guardian of a thigh high pile of magick cuckoo (OT level you can do after dropping the body) Hubbard left behind, then he's just gone.
Why wouldn't Miscavige do anything -- sell a couple Orgs -- to get the money to pay these people?
I've read the comments from people who say Miscavige is so naive in the ways of the outside world, he just didn't understand the potential for this happening. Is that really it? Did Miscavige think, "These guys got millions over the years. They won't dare do anything"?
I'd also like to know, did the cult ever have an official statement or line they used internally, as to why Pat Broeker left? One minute, the man is speaking at the Death Event, as some kind of guardian of a thigh high pile of magick cuckoo (OT level you can do after dropping the body) Hubbard left behind, then he's just gone.
afaceinthecrowd
Gold Meritorious Patron
Surely Jeffrey corresponded with the Cof$ re: his client's position before filing this suit. Even if the Cof$ cut these guys off as a cost cutting move they were certainly aware that they were about to incur the cost of litigation and potential high risk of multi-million $ settlement or judgment and further bad PR if they did not "Play Ball".
IMO, there's just no way the CofS hasn't got access to the dough to fade the heat and have made this thing quietly never germinate.
Sindy made a most excellent post re: her "Take" Cof$ financial picture and I think she probably pretty much nailed it as far as on going operations go.
Problem is, El Ron--and I have written about this before on ESMB--was, in many ways, a hoarder and that trait is in the Finance and Reserves Policy Issues. El Ron would almost never let one dime come out of Reserves after it was there. No matter what the screaming emergency was, no matter how big or perilous it was, Hisself demanded and finagled that the money to handle or fix it come from new or other funds. DM's just "Doing what Ron would do."
El Ron always had to be the smartest guy in the room...no matter what the subject was...and so it is with DM...Hisself wasn't and he ain't.
El Ron had a 26 year run but the hounds of retribution and justness were closing in and the only way Hisself was spared RECKONING was by death.
Dm's had a 26 year run and his hounds are closing in and he's still a relatively young man. Barring an untimely death...THERE WILL BE A RECKONING.
Face
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