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The 9 foot high board fence - Or, there are no real scientologists 'round here.

i'mglib

Patron with Honors
Hi, guys.

Please forgive me if this is obnoxious, but I feel like this is such a great (and possibly controversial) post by Dorothy on OCMB, that I went to import it here, and see what you guys say.

At first I though Dorothy was being harsh, but now I am seeing her point.

http://ocmb.xenu.net/ocmb/viewtopic.php?t=32549

Or, Real Men Love LRon

Rinder should have enough eye-witnesses (on the outside by now) to at least some of the 50+ beatings he had from DM while in. I'm talking a criminal trial for assault and battery, not a civil trial. Or, some other more recent escapee and graduate of the "I let Dave beat me up all the time" rundown should be able to bring on a case. Medical technology (scans and such) might even be able to produce some physical evidence of these various traumas. Why is it that the only real (scientologist) balls I see, seem to be inside the cult? Who does that make the victim?

BFG- now that guy has shown some real balls! Amy Scobee, Nancy Many, Larry Brennen, Jeff Hawkins, balls, all of them. And so many more. But this panty-waist Indy "scientologist" movement- give me a break!

LRon had his "9 ft. high board fence" handling for bullies. Yet none of these Indys seem to have the guts to do the standard LRon handling on Mr. Dave. How can they call themselves scientologists? All this whining and complaining about what a big bully Davey is while they are not taking anywhere near the effective actions that imo they could be taking. I wish they would quit this long drawn out (over years!) lobster quadrille with the media, grow some DM sized balls and do something really effective about the hijacking of their supposedly beloved religion instead of just nattering away on their natter boards to the world about all of mean little Davey's tirades. I mean really. I am beginning to wonder if Dave is right. Are these people really even scientologists? Because maintaining a happy kum-ba-ya blog or playing footsies with the media as any sort of handling of "SPs" was not in any LRon policies that I read.

Per LRon the ONLY handling for a bully is a "9-foot high board fence". Period.

I'm beginning to realize just how much fluff these guys really are. So disappointing. So this is what two warring groups of scientologists look like? One side with the hired PIs in dark sunglasses and the other recording conversations for the BBC on a cell phone? No. I don't see them clearing a table let alone a planet. They've lost me. I had considered supporting them in their efforts to take back scientology (for them, not for me). I thought they might rise up and like good scientologists actually do something about it. But no. They aren't even up to the level of wog (and by that I mean non-scientologist human being). So many regular, non- homo-novis human beings do so much more than that every day. No these people are utterly incompetent when it comes to assessing and accomplishing the task at hand. PTSes, all of them. I get it now. Geez. Sorry it took me so long.

Glib you're right. I was sitting this thing out and being "fair-minded" about it for a long time and I'm done with that. No I'm not jesting and btw, "fair-mindedness" and "humility", are not considered virtues by scientologists and especially not by Sea Org members. "Toughness" and "unreasonableness", are.

You should continue to be the wonderful person you are and I am not trying to influence or change you. I'm just saying, I can put up with a lot of things but hypocrisy does not happen to be one of them.

What you are talking about is what I am talking about too. Yes law enforcement is extremely lax and often times even on the wrong side. Media is a slave to its ratings and sponsors. And that is exactly why I am saying what I am saying. As real scientologists, as these people claim to be, would understand that. And as scientolgists they are expected to do the following:

Be unreasonable
Get the correct estimation of effort to solve the problem
Don't be a victim
and Do something about it

I do not see them being scientologists at all. I see them doing the opposite actually. Being "wog". I will no longer apply "battered wife syndrome" to these fruits. They are not wives, they are men, who believe themselves to be "OT" or "homo-novis" or whatever. Apparently DM does not beat up the women in his org. He humiliates them and abuses them in other ways, but as far as we know he does not take a fist to them. And there is an exact reason for his restraint which is obvious. Men are considered to be on an even playing field. I don't care if Dave had guards. You fight back. Hell, even some women fight their husbands when they are physically attacked. If any of these men had any balls, there would have been a fight to the death. Someone would have gone to the hospital or been killed. And maybe that would have gotten someone's attention in law enforcement. They didn't even defend themselves other than to raise an arm to deflect incoming blows. To then call others "victims" for voicing an opinion? I find that the epitome of hypocrisy and utterly appalling.

They are no longer under Dave's yolk and so now they are free to apply all the LRon stuff they want. So where is the "9-foot high board fence"?* What is their excuse?

Don't get me wrong I actually like Marty and can have respect for him, and I have. But I also, now, can see what he does that is extremely distasteful to me. There is no "Indy Movement". There are a bunch of exes telling their stories, comparing notes, licking their woulds, same as all the other natter boards. They are not doing anything about anything, and I find it extremely hypocritical of them. I'm glad Marty plans to write a book. He is beginning to get the idea. He should have done that a long time ago. I'm glad Rinder is going to the BBC (we'll see). But I'm sorry, they do need to do more than that. Its just not enough, as a scientologist, to merely place yourself in the limelight and not confront the real job at hand.

I may no longer be a scientologist, but I know very well what a scientologist is supposed to be and what they are not. I'm out primarily because of hypocrisy. It just happens to be my personal standard. To see these guys being such hypocrites, I just have to point it out. They are lying to themselves and to the world when they claim to be something that they are not.

My personal opinion is that they are living in pure fear of Dave and what they believe he can do to them. They know this because they routinely did it to others when they were in. Their own lack of confront helps to keep them in fear. And per scientology technology that places them at effect which means they are PTS. The reason they do not admit to any mind-control brain washing from scientology as a subject is because they are still caught up in it and so they cannot see it. Until they pop the bubble, they are floating in the wind.

I'm not faulting them for it. I am calling a spade a spade.

* LRon's story of the "9 foot high board fence" comes from a policy called "Ethics, the Design Of". As a child he was terrorized by bullies and the problem did not go away until he found a 9 foot high board fence, jumped them and gave them a dose of their own medicine. He formulated much of his ethics policy from that experience. It is rudimentary knowledge to an ethics officer. You never let a bully win.

Oh, little Davey does not want to go under oath, so no one is making him? Really? I'm so glad they are catering to his needs. Anyone applying LRon's policy about how to handle a bully would have made sure Dave was placed under oath years ago. You find a way.

The woman who does not testify against the rapist, the battered wife who
does not go to the police, the white people who did nothing while the negro was lynched in the south, all these people stand by and do nothing. These Indy pseudo-scientologists think putting a KR on the Internet is enough. It is not. There is volumes and volumes of crimes written about and reported on the Internet for years and guess what, most often, nothing is ever done about it. You have to commit suicide in front of a web cam to get any real attention.

What is a scientologist supposed to do? Not engage in suppressive reasonableness, especially when it comes to your religion being hijacked and destroyed. You have to understand that from the viewpoint of a scientologist, observing their lack of truly effective action, their use of wog strategies, only means that they must want Dave to succeed. They are standing by doing basically nothing while Dave destroys any semblance of scientology. Filming Dave's hired PIs? It makes for great reality TV but it does not stop the abuse. These people are not serious about what they are doing at all.

I am holding the people who do have the power to do something, who claim to be scientologists and OTs, responsible for every case of abuse that continues because they did not do what a scientologist would do and confront and handle the suppression. They are doing no more than what you and I and so many others, have done before them. Yet they call those people victims and hold themselves up as some kind of elite, knights in shining armor, who are going to save the true scientology religion. That is despicable behavior to me. It is no better than any of Dave's or LRon's Sea Org minions who routinely went into orgs and missions and wrecked them and abused the staff there. SOSDD.

As I said a bully is a bully and a victim is a victim no matter what kind of fur they wear or what they call themselves or what they call others.

I have no beef with "daily attrition". Hundreds of OG, critics and exes, anonymous have engaged in this activity for years and it is working, slowly, but it is working. I have a beef with the hypocritical behavior going on over at Marty's kum-ba-ya circle. They are all singing so beautifully in unison. Good for them and I hope they are enjoying themselves.
 

Rene Descartes

Gold Meritorious Patron
I wonder what Scientology is going to do if Psychiatry ever applies Ron's 9 foot high technique to the Church.

Rd00
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
Just a side comment here. I assume Hubbard's well-known story about how heroic he was as a nipper in beating up these big bullies is just more bravado and bullshit with as much truth as his whole track tales and "Ron the War Hero."

While I was in it never occurred to me that it was anything but the unvarnished truth. But now, well. . . .

Paul
 

TR'SIN

Patron with Honors
:rock: Dorothy you Rock and tks to i'mglib. Wish I had some hard evidence myself, don't think I'd be sitting on it.
 

dchoiceisalwaysrs

Gold Meritorious Patron
If Martology climbed a 9 foot fence and made a clean jump then it might land on and crush the past and present purveyors of narcissism, where would it be then?:coolwink:
 

xseaorguk

Patron Meritorious
good post

yes it is true that Mart Rathburn and Mike Rinder must be cowards down to the core, as the person said before "Where were the fantastic fights with DM?"
You cannot tell me that somebody may have managed to thump little Munchkin at some point!
The truth will be more along the lines of that they were both taking part in the violence too, but maybe got more punches than they dolled out.
They were aware of the lies and deceit.

Where was there OT integrity?
Where was their OT 'self determinism?'

I didn't even attest clear, and the bit of bullying I experienced in the Sea Org from the mission that arrived just made me smile, as I knew I was only a car drive away from my family and a saner place.
I knew I always had the possibility to make a decision
Yes or No....
 

Cadetification

Patron with Honors
I don't know how much they can or should be allowed to do considering that they partook in the violence. Seriously? Marty Rathbun "winning" the ruling over a bag of chips let alone a church is a very scary thought. Hes as big an asshole as DM. They can both rot.

Despite my personal convictions RE the Great Marty?, I don't think legally it would amount to much anyways. He was too involved the inner circle. He was happy to be DM's little love monkey until the guy got bored with him.
 

tiptoethrutheminefield

Patron with Honors
thump little munchkin

Re: "thump the little munchkin"

If you get the "balls" to de-victimize yourself and beat up the "bully," remember to do it in front of children, so they'll get the idea of how to be a big being here on planet earth.

"There are only two things you can do with someone: change him or kill him."
Ghandi
 

tiptoethrutheminefield

Patron with Honors
love monkey

I don't know how much they can or should be allowed to do considering that they partook in the violence. Seriously? Marty Rathbun "winning" the ruling over a bag of chips let alone a church is a very scary thought. Hes as big an asshole as DM. They can both rot.

Despite my personal convictions RE the Great Marty?, I don't think legally it would amount to much anyways. He was too involved the inner circle. He was happy to be DM's little love monkey until the guy got bored with him.

:thumbsup:

If we're gonna get all up in Scientology's face and display our enormous balls-hood, shouldn't we be worrying about how to protect/rescue the kids currently in instead of "thumping the munchkin"?

Just a question.
 

Feral

Rogue male
Just a side comment here. I assume Hubbard's well-known story about how heroic he was as a nipper in beating up these big bullies is just more bravado and bullshit with as much truth as his whole track tales and "Ron the War Hero."

While I was in it never occurred to me that it was anything but the unvarnished truth. But now, well. . . .

Paul

There was an interview in one of the Messiah books or a video interview that debunked that, wasn't there?
 

GLH

Patron
I think Dorothy's post is really great! It is funny this day and age that the women are displaying the balls that we guys should be displaying! She really kicks ass.
 

RolandRB

Rest in Peace
She makes a very good point, IMO. But Marty could have calculated that at some stage DM will be removed by force internally and himself go to the "hole". But I bet you he would then call the cops if he could and get himself out. But once DM is removed then Marty is obviously a prime candidate to take over.
 

looker

Patron Meritorious
Good points! My thoughts exactly.

Another question is if DM last had auditing for NOTS in 92 then he has no sec checks How about the other board Members, are they off auditing lines too?

If no sec checks then why couldn't they (the Board of Directors) get together privately plan and remove him as COB just as any other corporation has. A Coop Des Grass?

The apparent answer would be that the Board of Directors are afraid of the Chairman. What does DM have on them for blackmail? If he does have blackmail material why hasn't he used it yet on Marty or Rinder? Mutual Overts?

Sure, there is the usual Fair Gaming innuendos that Marty beat people just like DM did but where are the charges where are the DOX? Where is the court case the indictment against Marty or visa versa against DM?


What I would like to see (but may never happen) is:

Marty, Heber, and Rathburn and other past members of the Board of Directors (BD) contest publicly their oustment from the BD as illegal as per the rules of incorporation.

Call the media, gather thousands of supporters and burst through the gates of Hemit and Gold Take DM under citizens arrest, Declare DM a SP and subversent of LRH's legal will and estate. Charge DM with blackmail, extortion, assault, torture and human rights violations.

Surprise video tape the atrocious conditions Sea Org and Org staff have endured. Bunk beds, rats, cockroaches, filthy clothes, bathrooms, sleeping when you can next to a boiler and flammable storage boxes, running around trees 9+ hours a day, sun burnt, bug bitten, Beans and rice, gang bang sec checks, the RPF's RPF, sleep deprivation and mental cruelty.

Declare freedom for all RPFers with a years paid furlough to see relatives with free repair auditing or Psychological counseling for all who want it.

Offer any ExSciontologist back wages and Social Security back payments.

Release all who want it from the Billion Year contract.

Repay all who left, or abandon their advance payments with the orgs or Flag.

Auction off any and all DM personal property before he goes to prison.

Open the worst orgs as national historical remeberance monuments like Dachau, and Auschwitz

Sell any Scion property in order to fulfil the Amends to Scientology Staff and public.

Set aside several WW Orgs and Missions for a forever long meeting place for Exes and members to mingle and remember and forgive.

Search out Exes harmed by LRH and DM and make amends.

Reconnect friends and family and party:yes:

Give credit where credit is due for the *working parts* of Scientology.
(There are prolly errors here but this is mostly stuff from articles I read..from Jesse Prince's blog and the ESMB FDC thread etc.)
For example, Lock, Hume and Sigmund Freud and Commander Thompson formed the foundation for DMSMH, Mathison the eMeter, (Nibs) LRH Jr for TR0, Otto Roos for TR2, The couple ? that developed the study tech, Mystic who indicated By-Passed Charge (BPC), Allan Walters who then developed correction lists for BPC, Captain Bill Robertson, Allan Walters, David Mayo, John Galusha and ? who researched/developed the basis for life repair, the grades, and creative processes.
Walter Hubbard (no relation to LRH,) from Hawaii who donated research on Power, John McMaster the first Scientology CLEAR who developed *prpr* Power Release and repetitive processing for Power plus (who BTW was highly successful PR man, but was Gay, later RPFed and declared SP by LRH).

LRH stood on the shoulders of all these brilliant well meaning men and women. Without their work LRH would not have had any successes in *workable* Scientology.

A Scientologist friend once mentioned this about LRH; By dissecting his name, HUBBARD, more light might be shown: HUB; center for spokes for a wheel, and BARD; teller of poetry or stories of great warriors. With or without the early *research Think Tank*, LRH would have still been a penny a word SciFi writer and a Rock Slamming Narcissistic fraud.
 
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La La Lou Lou

Crusader
As far as I can work out from Nazi bullies they held utter contempt for their victims, even at the Nuremberg trials. The guys who were told to beat people up and did are not likely to suddenly change their mind. They will always have contempt for their victims, or they will really go through a tough time and then fight like crazy to end the suppression. There were Nazi's who changed sides and stuck their necks out bring justice to the perpetrators. I'm still waiting to see the proof of reformed bullies from 'Slapgate'.
 
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